Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've seen that as well, tanks not moving the boss to ensure DPS can safely reach positionals.
In my opinion it's most likely because of the general idea the boss will move to the middle on its own and that there's no need to position the boss.

But that's a player issue.

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Up until now it was glaring design issue with encounters, remains to be seen if it will be fixed in DT.

Consider TOP P1 looper. Enormous boss sits on the center, still has flanks and rear which can never be accessed as you always are forced to be at certain position for the mechs :) All tank can do is rotate boss initially to SW which increases statistical like hood of melees getting them with MTRH priority.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've seen that as well, tanks not moving the boss to ensure DPS can safely reach positionals.
In my opinion it's most likely because of the general idea the boss will move to the middle on its own and that there's no need to position the boss.

But that's a player issue.

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Whenever A12N pops up in roulettes there's a 70% chance the tank just points Alexander at the raid and it just hits everyone with the cleave, it's very funny.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I've seen that as well, tanks not moving the boss to ensure DPS can safely reach positionals.
In my opinion it's most likely because of the general idea the boss will move to the middle on its own and that there's no need to position the boss.

But that's a player issue.

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I tank about 60% in the game to 40% dps. I do my best to keep bosses postioned properly. In some of these cases it is not even positioning for positionals. When we all have to run from some big AOE or some mechanic where we can't stand in the middle the Tank (WAR in each case) simply takes the damage and never moves. You have the rest of the party and even the offtank in most cases in a corner while the WAR wails on a boss standing in AOEs and whatever else. It is inconsiderate imo. Basically they slow down DPS uptime because they can't die.

Oh, just to add, these are in cases where the boss will follow the tank. Aglaia is an example when Rhalgar does that attack where you stand in the marker because the fist punches the meteors to the other side. I have had tanks not move the boss to the group. Ranged can probably still reach it but melee can't do their main attacks.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

I tank about 60% in the game to 40% dps. I do my best to keep bosses postioned properly. In some of these cases it is not even positioning for positionals. When we all have to run from some big AOE or some mechanic where we can't stand in the middle the Tank (WAR in each case) simply takes the damage and never moves. You have the rest of the party and even the offtank in most cases in a corner while the WAR wails on a boss standing in AOEs and whatever else. It is inconsiderate imo. Basically they slow down DPS uptime because they can't die.

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Healer have much more hard time than tanks because they have something to manage.. tanks don't

that's why most tanks are just braindead easy and autopilot

That still doesn't make it cool in my opinion. It's still a team but I guess my teamwork mentality is lame.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Healer have much more hard time than tanks because they have something to manage.. tanks don't

that's why most tanks are just braindead easy and autopilot

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There's someone who made a topic that ask the question "what to manage as a Tank", people here provide a lot of answers to that question, perhaps it could illuminate you.

In all seriousness, don't listen to Tunda, they're either a troll or a heavily missguided individual.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

There's someone who made a topic that ask the question "what to manage as a Tank", people here provide a lot of answers to that question, perhaps it could illuminate you.

In all seriousness, don't listen to Tunda, they're either a troll or a heavily missguided individual.

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I am the false messiah

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

There's someone who made a topic that ask the question "what to manage as a Tank", people here provide a lot of answers to that question, perhaps it could illuminate you.

In all seriousness, don't listen to Tunda, they're either a troll or a heavily missguided individual.

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Yeah, and they have a few alts to circumvent limitations/blocks.

Just your typical hyper-active forum troll, sadly.

Returning to bloodwhetting, I was able to solo a lvl 100 map as WAR thanks to bloodwhetting. Yes, it took about 20 min before I got the wrong door in room 3 but this should not be possible at all to do imo. It's 8 person current content maps. Has anyone done a map solo and was it with a different job? I can't imagine any other job could survive like I did as WAR. I was no where close to ever dying.

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

Returning to bloodwhetting, I was able to solo a lvl 100 map as WAR thanks to bloodwhetting. Yes, it took about 20 min before I got the wrong door in room 3 but this should not be possible at all to do imo. It's 8 person current content maps. Has anyone done a map solo and was it with a different job? I can't imagine any other job could survive like I did as WAR. I was no where close to ever dying.

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You might be able to do it on PLD but that’s basically the same thing. Tank with massive tankiness and overpowered self healing

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You might be able to do it on PLD but that’s basically the same thing. Tank with massive tankiness and overpowered self healing

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Tanks are the most self sufficient role in this game and this is breaking the balance..

Why healer aren't self suffecient?
Why we don't have DPS that can eat tank busters?

Tanks are this way because dev think healers is busy having glare to spam and dot to up time

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Originally Posted by Grumblecakes

Returning to bloodwhetting, I was able to solo a lvl 100 map as WAR thanks to bloodwhetting. Yes, it took about 20 min before I got the wrong door in room 3 but this should not be possible at all to do imo. It's 8 person current content maps. Has anyone done a map solo and was it with a different job? I can't imagine any other job could survive like I did as WAR. I was no where close to ever dying.

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Yes, Paladin and Gunbreaker, but the later will require more work.
You need either a tank or a healer in maps.

The requirements to complete maps is even lower than dungeons.

You can solo maps as blue mage too. That's literally been a thing since Raw Intuition and Equilibrium were added to Warrior. Blue mage being able to just White Wind at 50% HP to top themselves up has been a thing since the addition of blue mage. Game is meant to be easy because MMOs are meant to be a casual experience to enjoy with friends. You should be asking "Why does dark knight have zero self sustain?" instead of complaining about warrior.

I can understand Blue Mage since it is not a standard job. I do think tanks should not be able to solo content like this. I won't try it again, it took too long and was boring. I did it out of curiosity. Although I don't main a healer or play it too often, I would like healers to be more involved with healing tanks.

Tanks are too uh, tanky. I prefer playing one but yes, I think we need a balance of sustain and healer support. I have no idea how that can be done.

I personally enjoy tanking the most when I am Paladin and have to use my support abilities as off tank on the party. It would be nice to have tanks have a more party mitigation role. There is some already and when I can use them to save from a wipe, it is much more satisfying then simply not dying myself.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

You can solo maps as blue mage too. That's literally been a thing since Raw Intuition and Equilibrium were added to Warrior. Blue mage being able to just White Wind at 50% HP to top themselves up has been a thing since the addition of blue mage. Game is meant to be easy because MMOs are meant to be a casual experience to enjoy with friends. You should be asking "Why does dark knight have zero self sustain?" instead of complaining about warrior.

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Dark Knight should have the regen health abilities not Warrior. It is their lore basically. Use health, drain health, get close to dying and heal but Warrior has that ability mostly. And I have asked that question before about DRKs because when I levelled it, I experienced the issues it has currently. They missed an opportunity of making DRK the earrior self heal job, but would have been done with how DRK is now where you get damaged quick. It would be cool if the closer to death you are the stronger your damage is but you have to manage when to use an abyssal drain like ability to stay alive.

I rambled a bit but the summary imo is no tank should be as powerful and unkilleable as Warrior. I know normal content is for casual players but them watching warriors solo bosses for 20 min after they died won't help them improve. And it is not fun to sit there and do nothing.

Eh, I don't see anything changing though. This is what the party makeup is and has been. Maybe give us a little more mid range difficulty content instead of either casual easy, or savage.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

You should be asking "Why does dark knight have zero self sustain?" instead of complaining about warrior.

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Why not both? WAR will likely still be able to solo current maps even if you cap BW at one heal per GCD.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

You can solo maps as blue mage too. You should be asking "Why Dark Knight has zero self sustain?" Instead of complaining about Warrior.

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Yep. 5 years after the content came out, yup. You don't want to play a tank Anjou you want to play a solo job that doesn't work in the trinity system. You want to play WAR but like how DRK looks and complain about everything that makes DRK different. Self sustain to the level of this game is unneeded when enemy auto attacks hit like nothing.

“You should be complaining about DRK not WAR”

Nah I’ll complain about WAR because DRK is actually well balanced

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“You should be complaining about DRK not WAR”

Nah I’ll complain about WAR because DRK is actually well balanced

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1 thing to make DRK to a new WAR is to increase shield based on how much enemies around you..

if it is 1 enemy it will keep 25% if 3 50% if more 80%

Man it's posts like these that, at times, make me glad they ignore the forums.

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Originally Posted by Oextra

Man it's posts like these that, at times, make me glad they ignore the forums.

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Got any particular reason why you think the thread topic should be ignored by the devs

I'll elaborate here. That's basically saying hypercasuals who always expect a hard carry when solo queuing for content outnumber all other player types 10 to 1 and will be jipped of the way they play if Square Enix gave this thread any attention and actually nerfed warrior self sustain. Do you really want the game to lose 50% of it's monetization in a single day just because you think a job is too OP? Sorry but most people don't want challenge to mean so nigh impossible that only the most elite of players can clear, and many find being overpowered to be what makes things fun for them.

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

I'll elaborate here. That's basically saying hypercasuals who always expect a hard carry when solo queuing for content outnumber all other player types 10 to 1 and will be jipped of the way they play if Square Enix gave this thread any attention and actually nerfed warrior self sustain. Do you really want the game to lose 50% of its monetization in a single day just because you think a job is too OP? Sorry but most people don't want challenge to mean so nigh impossible that only the most elite of players can clear, and many find being overpowered to be what makes things fun for them.

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TIL that having the jobs exist in their ShB form is “so nigh impossible that only the most elite of players can clear”

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Originally Posted by AnjouMaaka

I'll elaborate here. That's basically saying hypercasuals who always expect a hard carry when solo queuing for content outnumber all other player types 10 to 1 and will be jipped of the way they play if Square Enix gave this thread any attention and actually nerfed warrior self sustain. Do you really want the game to lose 50% of it's monetization in a single day just because you think a job is too OP? Sorry but most people don't want challenge to mean so nigh impossible that only the most elite of players can clear, and many find being overpowered to be what makes things fun for them.

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If only this has ever happened in another game and we could see what happens. Oh wait, it did in Dragonflight which ended up being a really well received expansion. Then they did it again for TWW, which seems to be shaping even better. It's almost like sometimes nerfing classes improves the overall game.

I believe it should be important to note a few things about WoW:
-Relative to healers, WoW tanks heals way more, even after the nerf Blood Death Knight can't die even in high-end content. BDK's HPS in mythic dungeon can be superior to healers.
-Healers have other responsibilities to manage such as cleansing debuffs and removing ennemy buffs, or interrupt dangerous casts.
-DPS also have access to very strong healing, much more than FF.

Yet their healers don't strike about that.
WoW and XIV can be compared but we shouldn't forget despite sharing similarities, they're apples and oranges.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I believe it should be important to note a few things about WoW:
-Relative to healers, WoW tanks heals way more, even after the nerf Blood Death Knight can't die even in high-end content. BDK's HPS in mythic dungeon can be superior to healers.
-Healers have other responsibilities to manage such as cleansing debuffs and removing ennemy buffs, or interrupt dangerous casts.
-DPS also have access to very strong healing, much more than FF.

Yet their healers don't strike about that.
WoW and XIV can be compared but we shouldn't forget despite sharing similarities, they're apples and oranges.

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WoW is successful game but it isn't the measurement of good implementation on trinity system..

Tanks shouldn't heal like healers rathor than having more heals than healers.
DPS shouldn't have healing capabilities as healers it should be limited with high CDs.
Buffs and Debuffs and CC is part of tank identity IMO armor crush, break.. these skills sounds like tank thing not a healer.


People who plays WoW hates their trinity system why should we implement it?

IMO current FFXIV trinity with its flaws is way better than WoW

It’s more towards tanks heal more in WOW but the boss belts them with far far more damage

If the WOW tanks heal twice as much but the boss does 4 times as much damage that’s the same as our tanks getting their healing nerfed by 50%

Tanks need heterogenization, and nerfing Bloodwhetting would not necessarily be needed.

In fact, if Warrior defense were all in self-healing (as in, they would not have the same passive damage reduction the other tanks do and had less access to damage-reduction CDs), I'd support that, and increasing self-healing massively across the board, maybe even adding some healing to all attacks as a passive thing.

Bonus points:

* Replace self-healing with stackable self-shields (IMO fits the mental idea of a warrior shrugging off damage more, but eh, mechanically it'd not make a huge difference in raid fights anyways).
* Warrior tank-stance uniquely does not increase Emnity of attacks by the Warrior, but Emnity for healing. Since ~all attacks heal, and some heal for a lot, and CDs are based around healing, this would roughly work out to the same Emnity, but "feel" better.
* Taking damage increases the damage of the next attack the Warrior deals, passively. More angry. As healing would be based on damage dealt, this increases healing in turn. Which increases Emnity.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

WoW and XIV can be compared but we shouldn't forget despite sharing similarities, they're apples and oranges.

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You can absolutely compare the fact that having had a similar problem, nerfing not one but all tanks, and not once but twice, not only hasn't lead to a massive exodus of players that Anjou alluded, but the expansions ended up being massively popular.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s more towards tanks heal more in WOW but the boss belts them with far far more damage

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In general, fights in WoW dish out significantly more damage. To a degree that to players who did not compare it themselves from a healer or tank perspective might be difficult to fathom.

To put it in FFXIV terms, imagine if you had to ~constantly use your GCD-based healing kit on top of all the oGCDs, simply because the boss dealt 25%-30% of a tank's health per auto-attack and did so quickly, plus hit 1-2 people in the group for 30%-50% of their HP about every second GCD or so. That's not a perfect translation, but it should give you an idea of how WoW healing and damage tanking feels.

It's no wonder that WoW by comparison does not have the problem of tanks and healers both being just different coloured types of DPS where their non-DPS functions have become shoved into oGCD weaves and trivialized via passives and automatic effects. It has some other problems as a result of this difference, but a lack of use for your tanking or healing kit really isn't one. Aye.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

You can absolutely compare the fact that having had a similar problem, nerfing not one but all tanks, and not once but twice, not only hasn't lead to a massive exodus of players that Anjou alluded, but the expansions ended up being massively popular.

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Yes, but is it the case here? I don't think so.
Even Post nerf, WoW tanks sustain is still way above what XIV tanks can do.
The nerf was around 50% of their sustain on most abilities. This should give you a hint about how broken it truly was.

I'll repeat but healers have other responsibilities and more heal to do to protect the party as a whole.
WoW tanks can still keep themselves up, they only require healing when there's a spike of damage.

Here's a bonus to back it up, I know Supersnow will absolutely love it.
Guardian druid solo tanking endgame content with no healers at +11 difficulty, as far as I know it's just a challenge to go above +10.

Being able to do a mythic 11 key with no healer after tank sustain got nerfed twice is not the “don’t nerf tank sustain in 14 argument” you think it is

Personally, I'd say the only change needed is to make Nascent Flash only heal the target and not yourself. You're still able to make good use as OT, but doing so as MT would have real consequences. Saying this as the WAR from those ever-vexing WAR no healer dungeon runs.
Tanks being able to self sustain is fine, even if it's highly potent. If anything, DRK / GNB should be uplifted rather than PLD / WAR brought down.
However, spreading that healing to allies *at no compromise to their own* is what encroaches on the healer role.

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

Personally, I'd say the only change needed is to make Nascent Flash only heal the target and not yourself. You're still able to make good use as OT, but doing so as MT would have real consequences. Saying this as the WAR from those ever-vexing WAR no healer dungeon runs.
Tanks being able to self sustain is fine, even if it's highly potent. If anything, DRK / GNB should be uplifted rather than PLD / WAR brought down.
However, spreading that healing to allies *at no compromise to their own* is what encroaches on the healer role.

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I fully agree with this nascent healing both feels really odd, most likely because of how Shadowbringers warrior worked.

Though I think gunbreaker is perfectly fine sustain wise, you only really see PLD that much ahead of it because of veil.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Being able to do a mythic 11 key with no healer after tank sustain got nerfed twice is not the “don’t nerf tank sustain in 14 argument” you think it is

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s more towards tanks heal more in WOW but the boss belts them with far far more damage

If the WOW tanks heal twice as much but the boss does 4 times as much damage that’s the same as our tanks getting their healing nerfed by 50%

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It's to contradict that misinformation you tried to spread.
People here try to use the WoW tank sustain nerf as if it used to be on the same level to XIV while avoiding how broken it truly was.

FFXIV's Warrior wouldn't last a single trash pull in a WoW dungeon. The type of self healing it does only works in FFXIV thanks to the content design. As I've stated before, the way to go about it is to overcome the job design with content design, something Square Enix achieves very well with savage and ultimate, but not so well in dungeons.

Most players sub for the new story stuff, and then unsub until the next major patch. These players don't frequent the forums and they outnumber raiders 10 to 1. The minimum ilvl for dungeons is like way less than the previous expansion's best in slot, because these players only take whatever dungeon gear they get and don't even know better gear exists. If Square Enix overcame the job design in dungeons, these players would be unable to contribute to the party, much less figure out why they can't make progress, which would frustrate them and make them just give up. The way to break away from this state that dungeons are in is to stop tying the dungeons to the story. That would free up the devs to make the dungeons more challenging, and also more rewarding.

When you see a warrior go full immortal in dungeons, it's because they are using their cooldowns correctly AND extremely overgeared. If you were to play the job at minimum ilvl in the dungeon, which I've seen plenty of warriors who do, it's a much different story, and even a well seasoned veteran playing warrior in that state has to pretty much blow everything just to pull wall to wall. The dungeon balance is centered around doing the dungeon at the minimum ilvl. Which is something many players take for granted, as was made obvious via Dawntrail's dungeon design (those birds in the 97 dungeon hit like a truck, even when overgeared).

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

It's to contradict that misinformation you tried to spread.
People here try to use the WoW tank sustain nerf as if it used to be on the same level to XIV while avoiding how broken it truly was.

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Those two claims don’t contradict, WOW hits for more which justifies a higher sustain level. Is WOW’s sustain still too high……arguable. Is WOW’s sustain better balanced because the tanks take more damage……yes

And the only reason the sustain nerf was bought up was because Anjou doomed about a sustain nerf leading the population of 14 to collapse. Which WOW’s sustain nerf directly refutes

Or to get to the root of the issue - and also fix Dark Knight imbalance in one fell swoop - remove the lvl82 upgrades for PLD, WAR and GNB short CDs, mostly.

That is, keep only one functionality, and it's not damage reduction, rather it's some way of healing:

* Warriors heal per hit dealt.
* Paladins apply a HoT.
* Gunbreakers heal on falling low on HP (or on expire, though I'd honestly half this healing!).
* Dark Knights only gain a shield, but in return it's quite strong, on a shorter CD, but costs mana, but makes an attack free of cost.

This feels far more balanced than what we currently have, where DRK has exactly that, but everyone else has 1356345234 things bolted onto their short CDs just because the devs like 50-60 lines long tooltips.