Give back pre-DT models back NOW

Well, we can say for sure that SE, or someone from SE is looking in here.
This thread is looking mighty different than it was yesterday

Thanks for updating everything, it is really appreciated, that some don't like seeing self for what they are, their problem and they need to work with that... or poison their skin with too much make-up instead.

Why are now people insulting this thread and the people who want the models fixed. Go away if you don't agree.

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

Why are now people insulting this thread and the people who want the models fixed. Go away if you don't agree.

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It's funny how, no matter what the argument is around here, one side or another always ends up with "if you don't like it, leave".

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

Why are now people insulting this thread and the people who want the models fixed. Go away if you don't agree.

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See, normally I’d want to say something like “discussion is part of the point of this forum, a thread where everyone agrees isn’t the only good kind of thread”. But the majority of posts I’ve seen against further revisions to character faces have either been intentionally inflammatory or thoughtless/low-effort.

For the most part, people don’t even describe what they like about the new models, or what they think we are supposed to like about them. Sometimes they don’t even claim to like them in the first place. They just say “your character looked bad before/looks better now” without knowing what the player intended the character to look like, “there’s no difference, all of you are just crazy/need to get a life”, “you won’t care in a week”, “stop whining/throwing a temper tantrum/demanding the devs do whatever you want”, baseless assertions that people are lying about being dissatisfied or that those dissatisfied with the update are so few in number that they couldn’t possibly matter, “No. /10char” and so on. Even I can come up with more good to say about the update than most of these posts that were, supposedly, made in support of it.

To put it simply, this kind of behavior seems less like genuine participation in a discussion and more like a cynical attempt to bury others’ feedback under a tidal wave of white noise.

I’ve been trying not to get too deep into tangential meta-debates responding to the response to the response to the update. But most threads on the subject of our characters’ updated appearances have become a pain to dig through if you’re looking for actual commentary on the update itself, and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to ignore the reason why.

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

See, normally I’d want to say something like “discussion is part of the point of this forum, a thread where everyone agrees isn’t the only good kind of thread”. But the majority of posts I’ve seen against further revisions to character faces have either been intentionally inflammatory or thoughtless/low-effort.

For the most part, people don’t even describe what they like about the new models, or what they think we are supposed to like about them. Sometimes they don’t even claim to like them in the first place. They just say “your character looked bad before/looks better now” without knowing what the player intended the character to look like, “there’s no difference, all of you are just crazy/need to get a life”, “you won’t care in a week”, “stop whining/throwing a temper tantrum/demanding the devs do whatever you want”, baseless assertions that people are lying about being dissatisfied or that those dissatisfied with the update are so few in number that they couldn’t possibly matter, “No. /10char” and so on. Even I can come up with more good to say about the update than most of these posts that were, supposedly, made in support of it.

To put it simply, this kind of behavior seems less like genuine participation in a discussion and more like a cynical attempt to bury others’ feedback under a tidal wave of white noise.

I’ve been trying not to get too deep into tangential meta-debates responding to the response to the response to the update. But most threads on the subject of our characters’ updated appearances have become a pain to dig through if you’re looking for actual commentary on the update itself, and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to ignore the reason why.

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to be fair with all of this we have to accept that the 2d and 3d graphical artists at se have their own vision for how they want characters to look. plus with many of the changes who can really say if each individual customization was always 100% intended to look that way or was accomplished with graphical tricks or settling when what they wanted to create exceeded the sort of technological budget they had for creating them. to me it is likely that many of these changes could have been what they always wanted them to look like if not for the old 1.0 graphical and lighting limitations

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I wish forum posts like these would stop getting replied to. They are toxic and not benefiting the fanbase.

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It'll die down eventually.
Right now, the changes are fresh and people are still hopeful they may get revisions.
When time tells that the DEVs stick to their guns, the complainers will either fall in line and accept or leave the game.

I mean it's pretty civil, it's only really 2 threads in the forum about the subject. Let them have their discussions.

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

to be fair with all of this we have to accept that the 2d and 3d graphical artists at se have their own vision for how they want characters to look. plus with many of the changes who can really say if each individual customization was always 100% intended to look that way or was accomplished with graphical tricks or settling when what they wanted to create exceeded the sort of technological budget they had for creating them. to me it is likely that many of these changes could have been what they always wanted them to look like if not for the old 1.0 graphical and lighting limitations

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Very true, though in all fairness: even if you CAN get closer to your original vision with the new system, you do not change something after having players get attached to it for a decade w/o some damn good reason.

E.g.: I see no technical reason to "half close" a Miqo M's eyes or make the mouth of an Au Ra F smaller.
In the same vein: I see no technical reason why all lips now have to sparkle as if Lip Gloss is used, when that used to be optional.
These are arbitrary design decisions and they should not have happened.

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Originally Posted by ConantSivrha

For the most part, people don’t even describe what they like about the new models

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On a technical side, what's not to like?:

Higher polygon count
Infinitely better bone weights /skeletal rigging resulting in much more natural expressions and new possibilities. Unfortunately SE did not leverage that advantage so far. That Graha Ice-Cream scene would have been perfect to show off the fully rigged and functional tongue, characters have now.
Better shader materials, hair has a really nice shimmer to it now.
Subsurface Scattering (watch Elezen ears against a light source, light shimmers through)

Texture quality could have been better, not sure why SE shied away from using a higher resolution and a less aggressive compression (DXT-1 sucks!).

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Originally Posted by BunnyQueen

The eyes are too dead.

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Yeah, the lalafell eyes didn't look all that improved.

Daily remember that if you don't like X you can always unsubscribe from Yoshida game, and delete your character as the GCBTW says around.

Eyes are too dead and the eye shape needs work.

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Originally Posted by BunnyQueen

Eyes are too dead and the eye shape needs work.

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I've seen this "dead eyes" comment a few times. To me they look more alive than ever so I'm genuinely curious, in what way do you think they look dead? What would you like them to look like? Do you have an example you could share?

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I've seen this "dead eyes" comment a few times. To me they look more alive than ever so I'm genuinely curious, in what way do you think they look dead? What would you like them to look like? Do you have an example you could share?

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Can only speak for Keeper-eyes but I dislike that the pupils got brighter. That leads to
a) cloudy looking eyes (like a Cataract)
b) less contrast between pupil and iris that can make the eyes appear "dead" in certain lighting conditions.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Can only speak for Keeper-eyes but I dislike that the pupils got brighter. That leads to
a) cloudy looking eyes (like a Cataract)
b) less contrast between pupil and iris that can make the eyes appear "dead" in certain lighting conditions.

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I see, I took a look at your profile picture and it does look strange that the pupil is a shade of the iris. So that wasn't always the case?

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Originally Posted by lunartears

Excuse me for replying as I'm not the same person, but my Au Ra has a great example of dead eyes:

https://i.imgur.com/iT8AUB9.png

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Thank you for replying. Could you elaborate on what makes them look dead to you? Is it just the lack of a catchlight on the right one?

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I see, I took a look at your profile picture and it does look strange that the pupil is a shade of the iris. So that wasn't always the case?

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Eh, Forum profile pics are no good.

Instead of black, the pupils look grey, which gives them a "clouded" look in game.
It's a simple matter of the diffuse texture being too bright in that area. Grey instead of closer to black.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Forums have completely devolved. We need more mods in here to get things back to being civilized.

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when did u turn into a pig

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Originally Posted by lunartears

In the case of my example, the enlarged pupils, the higher position of the iris (as opposed to being in the center before) and way that the eye texture appears are the main reasons. While not necessarily something I have thought about too much, the catchlight probably plays a factor too.

I find the reasoning for the "dead eyes" is different per race but it usually boils down to the eye texture and iris position, (in the case of the pupil size it has only been scaled much larger on Female Au Ra). I would say the dead eye look is most visible to me on Hyur and Au Ra.

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Got it. Well I can't lie and say I agree with the eyes looking dead, but I have a much better understanding of where people are coming from on that issue now. Thank you for the explanation!

EDIT: I haven't been able to find another picture of the iris position being different. Is it only on specific faces?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Eh, Forum profile pics are no good.

Instead of black, the pupils look grey, which gives them a "clouded" look in game.
It's a simple matter of the diffuse texture being too bright in that area. Grey instead of closer to black.

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I see, well I'll have to take your word for it then. That does sound like it would look very odd.

I mostly just have problem with the lack of black nose on face 4 lalas and the skin shine on dark skin being too intense.
Besides that I'm fine with model changes, they really aren't that bad.

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

Why are now people insulting this thread and the people who want the models fixed. Go away if you don't agree.

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I can tell you why. Some people act like serious egoists. They want their way of designs and likes, but shit on those, who are actually happy with the new update.
One might say, it's great that you care so much about your models, but most posters forget one important thing. If SE changes something - will inevitable lead to the next wave of people that want the changes reversed. Something YOU might not like, might be in favor for others. Instead of demanding the return of old textures, people could ask for more creator options, but I dont see that.

Well, this how the thread started, didnt it?

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I can tell you why. Some people act like serious egoists. They want their way of designs and likes, but shit on those, who are actually happy with the new update.
One might say, it's great that you care so much about your models, but most posters forget one important thing. If SE changes something - will inevitable lead to the next wave of people that want the changes reversed. Something YOU might not like, might be in favor for others. Instead of demanding the return of old textures, people could ask for more creator options, but I dont see that.

Well, this how the thread started, didnt it?

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Outside of this thread, which I personally very rarely tune into because I think asking for the old models is a lost cause, there are threads popping up asking for more customization options and I think the general consensus in the main discussion megathread is that adding more customization would be a good compromise.

Here's two threads that immediately come to mind. I encourage more people to voice their support, be it by commenting or making new threads entirely!
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-customization
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...es-we-once-had

My only complaint is that we still have octagonal legs. SE, can we get some round legs, please?

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

I've seen this "dead eyes" comment a few times. To me they look more alive than ever so I'm genuinely curious, in what way do you think they look dead? What would you like them to look like? Do you have an example you could share?

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Here’s an example from my character as well. Moon Miqo face 4. Should be pretty clear from this. Everything is grey and hazy, the underlid shadow is super heavy, and the catchlights and eye reflections all seem to be dimmed by both shadows and that grey haze. Pupils being tinted by iris colour and darker/lighter depending on the tone of the eyes has always been a thing but seems a lot more pronounced in 7.0 and I don’t know why. (not super visible in this gif, but very visible in different lighting.)

https://i.imgur.com/2tt7laW.gif

You can see how dull and hazy they are. The 6.x and 7.0 are the brightest colour from both eyes. Honestly, aside from the improved waterline texture, not a thing about this eye looks like a graphical upgrade to me. And yet it changed so much. It lost all its original style. Now it kinda looks like it’s from The Sims 3….

The moon miqo’te eye textures pre-dawntrail shown below were honestly pretty high quality before and the new ones look lower quality to me.
https://i.imgur.com/7xl70MU.jpeg

My eyes and my mouth feel an overall graphical downgrade to me. And my nose is a graphical upgrade but I can’t enjoy it because they gave me an unwanted nosejob and just made it perfectly straight and flat. No more cute button nose. Feels like some faces just got so much less effort :’<

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I can tell you why. Some people act like serious egoists. They want their way of designs and likes, but shit on those, who are actually happy with the new update.
One might say, it's great that you care so much about your models, but most posters forget one important thing. If SE changes something - will inevitable lead to the next wave of people that want the changes reversed. Something YOU might not like, might be in favor for others. Instead of demanding the return of old textures, people could ask for more creator options, but I dont see that.

Well, this how the thread started, didnt it?

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So just because some people got lucky, the rest of us have to live and shut up any commentary about wanting our characters back? Fixing or giving us more options is the solution. Being emphatic with the people who are unhappy. Or just because you live in your bubble people who are dying and suffering in wars don't matter? They have a say too. They also want to be happy. This is the same, some of us got the end of the stick here. We want to be listened too, and fix what can be fixed because they surely changed some models too much. Or the eyes are now looking DEAD INSIDE. If a tiny fix makes our characters look more like before, why not?

The cat eyes with the slit pupils in Sun miqo'te are GONE, thanks to that horrible shadows they added, changing the colors, and adding an eyelid hiding the eye more than ever. in some models. This is not an upgrade no matter how you see it.

The title may not be the best, but it makes it stand out precisely because it's demanding.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I can tell you why...

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

So just because...

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Um, guys? Take a step back please and breathe, then look at this again, because you do not actually seem to be in disagreement with each other? You are both saying they shouldn't sacrifice one set of appearance options for another, you just disagree on which set you'd prefer they keep. It sounds to me like instead of bickering with each other you could add your combined energy to speak up together for more character options so that this wouldn't have to be an either/or situation in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

Um, guys? Take a step back please and breathe, then look at this again, because you do not actually seem to be in disagreement with each other? You are both saying they shouldn't sacrifice one set of appearance options for another, you just disagree on which set you'd prefer they keep. It sounds to me like instead of bickering with each other you could add your combined energy to speak up together for more character options so that this wouldn't have to be an either/or situation in the first place?

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Yeah I agree. People defensive of features they’ve had for two weeks are criticizing people attached to features they’ve had for up to 10 years yet convinced there’s no common ground. In my head it makes more sense to stick with the features that people have had for 10 years and add the new ones in as options but you could flip that and I would honestly just be relieved either way. Not like I’ve used the free fanta, or even my original free fanta. I’d even pay for one at this point if it meant I could go into CC and get my eyes, nose and mouth back.

I just want my character to look like my character again, like this:
https://i.imgur.com/W7sqrAH.png

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

I just want my character to look like my character again, like this:

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Agreed.
Cataract eyes are annoying and I still think they could let the iris shimmer a bit more (it was even worse in Benchmark MKI).

I can't say that I agree with you the current textures are way better.

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Originally Posted by PaendeoLilli

I can't say that I agree with you the current textures are way better.

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All of them? Or specific ones? You didn’t quote anyone so not sure who you’re disagreeing with sorry

At least give yourself some time to get used to them. While I'm not the biggest fan and think they look weird I've had 8 years to get used to the original models.

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Originally Posted by Naychan

At least give yourself some time to get used to them. While I'm not the biggest fan and think they look weird I've had 8 years to get used to the original models.

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If playing since day 28 hours and hours doesn't make it, it won't make it ever. I'm used to the new one? Yeah, do I like it? NO. It's my character? NO. No matter how much time pases, this is not the character I created. And I hate his eyes now.

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

Yeah I agree. People defensive of features they’ve had for two weeks are criticizing people attached to features they’ve had for up to 10 years yet convinced there’s no common ground. In my head it makes more sense to stick with the features that people have had for 10 years and add the new ones in as options but you could flip that and I would honestly just be relieved either way. Not like I’ve used the free fanta, or even my original free fanta. I’d even pay for one at this point if it meant I could go into CC and get my eyes, nose and mouth back.

I just want my character to look like my character again, like this:
https://i.imgur.com/W7sqrAH.png

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They completely ruined the F4 Miqo maybe the most, why....?

The troll has been feeded.

I like the changes, but I do think the new lighting could use a little more work--most of the time it looks good--but sometimes there's this brief angle in a cutscene where stuff looks weird.

I've seen screenshot comparisons of the wiremesh for the face, though. There's considerably more going on and it should allow for a greater degree of expression, which is important for a story driven game.

On the other hand, I will say some of the new sculpts at better than others, and I think the new lighting renders way better on sharp, angular faces than round, smooth ones. Highlanders and Roe feel like big winners, while Elezen and Miqo'te feel like the biggest losers from this change.

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Originally Posted by Alesandra

They completely ruined the F4 Miqo maybe the most, why....?

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Probably because I liked it. Seems to happen to all the jobs I play too. I must have been cursed by a witch? You can make the case that the mouth is similar, just squished and flattened and glossed up. The eyes are similar despite everything about them changing slightly.

But the nose is a completely different nose. ???

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Originally Posted by Alesandra

They completely ruined the F4 Miqo maybe the most, why....?

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female? oh boy haven't you seen male miqo'te face 4? xD that is even worse, they fucked both genders of face 4

https://i.imgur.com/Crux6vq.gif

Looks perfectly fine to me.

it's not so much new models, but new lighting
in most minute cases at least

*Play femelezen duskwight with face 4*
Nope don't want the old model back, not one bit ^^

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

But the nose is a completely different nose. ???

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Yeah even I can see it and I am not overly familiar with that face.
That change to the nose is just 100% unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

female? oh boy haven't you seen male miqo'te face 4? xD that is even worse, they fucked both genders of face 4

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If they fix the weird shadow on top of the eyes, the rest seems fine to me. Perceived nose changes in this instance is really just the lighting. We all know lighting can be cursed sometimes. Old and new system alike. :'D

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Originally Posted by Alesandra

We never asked to destroy the game like this, so many years being so perfectly good and now is pure sad and irritating to play with these cartoonish, foolish, emotionless and lifeless models

Why?

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Is.. this because of the increase in system requirements?

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

Yeah I agree. People defensive of features they’ve had for two weeks are criticizing people attached to features they’ve had for up to 10 years yet convinced there’s no common ground. In my head it makes more sense to stick with the features that people have had for 10 years and add the new ones in as options but you could flip that and I would honestly just be relieved either way. Not like I’ve used the free fanta, or even my original free fanta. I’d even pay for one at this point if it meant I could go into CC and get my eyes, nose and mouth back.

I just want my character to look like my character again, like this:
https://i.imgur.com/W7sqrAH.png

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The middle one looks the best