Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

I'm tired of the scions; it's not that they're bad characters or anything like that, it's just their archs ended with endwalker. The WOL gets a pass because WOL's the world's savior and would travel anywhere to save it. But what of the scions? Even G'raha tia's starting to look tired, forced, and old in these cutscenes and he's only really been around 2 expansions as a main character. The game's starting to feel like tourism rather than an adventure; we're literally starting to become the The Sims now.

I for one would like to say goodbye to the scions and be on that boat in the trailer by myself. Yes they've been with us forever but I'm not gonna sit here and say they're my favorite characters....the warrior of light should be on their own journey now after growing so strong and enduring through all of these insane predicaments.

When I saw the scions would still be here for Dawntrail, I was also disappointed.
But also I understand why they probably wouldn’t abruptly give us a new cast.
So I’m hoping we meet new allies in Dawntrail and we slowly split from the scions and go on adventures with the new allies we meet.
And eventually the scions will be a thing of the past, and will just have occasional small cameos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by diamondedge83

I don't know why you'd think that. This is a Final Fantasy game and the Scions are the party, you know, the main characters?

---

The standalone FF games feature a new cast every few years, yet we've been recycling the FFXIV cast for ten years now. There are other stories to tell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coratanni

I would like to leave behind Alisaie but I know that's never going to happen.

---

The series has left behind her character development for a decade, so we might as well make it official.

I was really disappointed to catch up on the post-MSQ content and find that fate is sending almost the entire cast of scions on our new adventure. The scions feel tired now, and I was looking forward to focusing on a new cast. Dawntrail could even bring 1 or 2 of the less-developed Scions along to bridge content and then develop a fresh roster of faces, with the rest of the team making a cameo here or there.

Instead we're pretending that there will be multiple teams of scions competing, even though we know that either a great threat will be revealed or the other sponsors will turn out to be evil, necessitating the group reuniting to save the day. As of right now there are zero Scions who would meaningfully oppose another member of the group, as everyone shares an copy-paste alignment, outlook, and relationship with the WoL. I feel like you could swap them out in most of Endwalker at will, with the only thing changing being the etherbabble used to advance the plot.

It's a shame that every single character is too marketable to bench for an expansion or - heaven forbid - kill off to give the plot some bite. Because then they'd have to forgo $X in sales of Y'shtola body pillows or Thancred shot glasses or whatever.

send the twins back to garlemald
tataru can work on her empire
make a sidequest for shtola and thancred going back to the first.
make urianger an important figur in sharlayan
estinien... i dont know, protector of thavnair?
make a side quest chain for all of them

so we have a nice little crew in erenville, krile and wuk lamat having still room for new characters without white hair

Personally I don't think its going to be possible to tell engaging stories with the main cast of 7+ people all having plot armor so thick they cant even have character arcs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HappyHubris

The standalone FF games feature a new cast every few years, yet we've been recycling the FFXIV cast for ten years now. There are other stories to tell.

---

The standalone games are also separate stories, while XIV is one long continuing story, so that's apples and oranges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Heroman3003

That would require having an actual main character. WoL does not have a real personality that would allow for that transition. In ff14 Alphinaud is closer to being well defined main character then WoL.

---

But the one constant is the WoL. You can tell stories with other characters around them. They are the force moving the story forward.

I personally think Y'shtola has other priorites to her character. I see no reason for her to come to Tural. Thancred should try to work with Y'shtola instead of coming. The twins didn't need to come and hopefully don't have a huge role in the plot. Urianger and G'raha are fine coming. I wonder what excuse they'll use for G'raha to tag along after all. Estinien has no relevance so...

Krile is finally relevant. Wuk is nice addition already. I hope she becomes a permanent member.

I don't think the Scions are the problem. The problem is that they are now being written with writer's awareness of their own legacy, at least in the patch content. Part of it is the voice direction as well in my opinion. It sounds a little TOO "oh my we are off to our next little adventure" and G'raha is constantly trying too hard to seem like the highly dependable academic. I feel like the writing is missing human elements...that's what made Endwalker so good imo because we got moments where Scions had to deal with some anxieties for once. Nowadays they act like nothing is a big deal because they beat you know who. I think the more they speak that way and the more the dialogue stays oriented around that idea, the more frustrated the audience is going to be. The writers really need to dig deep and think up new arcs for these characters.

I think at least Y'shtola and G'raha have still goals to achieve. Y'shtola has the First and Runar (which for some reason cannot be said out loud) an G'raha has the promise of adventure (technically has happened with secrets of the realm).

The twins and Estinien have no reason to come to Tural other than just for the ???.

Thancred and Urianger have at least been written to serve a purpose it seems.

I don't dislike having all the Scions around but....what was even the point of "disbanding," even if only a facade, if the Scooby gang still ends up hanging out permanently. People have eyes lol

After 6.0 I thought we'd have them split into each type of content, like, Y'shtola and Estinien for the MSQ, G'raha and Krille for the alliance raid, Thancred and Urianger for the raids, the twins with not-Doma/Ishgard restoration, and Tataru doing her own thing, with only cameos of each other here and there. Personally I think something like that would work as a means to have all the Scions still active but not together at all times, and would also give other/new characters a time to shine (Twelve know the "B Team" Scions need some love).

My thoughts:

It would have been totally acceptable to have the Scions casually come along to the new world and spend the entire time chilling on vacation in the background A kind of easter egg appearance to reward them for the last ten years. I wouldn't mind if they were present as long as they were relegated to very minor cameos while we dealt in our own adventures and met new cast members. Krile and Erenville would have been plenty to serve as anchors for a new Dawntrail cast.

But making them all central players yet again just really cheapens the whole experience; even before the expansion has launched we can see a lot of forced writing to (a) get everyone over to Tural and (b) create motivational conflict. None of it feels natural. I can absolutely assure you we are going to see a lot of retrodden dialogue beats: someone eats local cuisine, someone works too hard and falls asleep, Alisae gets angry at something, Alphinaud does a politic; Y'Shtola death fakeouts; Urianger can't swim. They really are shooting themselves in the foot trying to keep this cast together. None of it feels in service of any of these characters. And if all we wanted was to see G'Raha eat a taco and Thancred hunt for treasure, those singular plot beats are not enough to merit an entire story focused on these characters. All of this could have been happening in NPC dialogue and side quests.

It may be far too late to hope, but I really do hope the Scions stay out of the way once they get off the ship. I don't want them featuring in this story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't dislike having all the Scions around but....what was even the point of "disbanding," even if only a facade, if the Scooby gang still ends up hanging out permanently. People have eyes lol

---

The point was to realign the overall purpose of the group and free the characters up to pursue their own projects instead of working with the city leaders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allegor

I don't dislike having all the Scions around but....what was even the point of "disbanding," even if only a facade, if the Scooby gang still ends up hanging out permanently. People have eyes lol

---

I think it's more "stop calling us to deal with your problems now" as opposed to "let's stop hanging out". Like people who still hang out after their company closes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

My thoughts:

It would have been totally acceptable to have the Scions casually come along to the new world and spend the entire time chilling on vacation in the background A kind of easter egg appearance to reward them for the last ten years. I wouldn't mind if they were present as long as they were relegated to very minor cameos while we dealt in our own adventures and met new cast members. Krile and Erenville would have been plenty to serve as anchors for a new Dawntrail cast.

But making them all central players yet again just really cheapens the whole experience; even before the expansion has launched we can see a lot of forced writing to (a) get everyone over to Tural and (b) create motivational conflict. None of it feels natural. I can absolutely assure you we are going to see a lot of retrodden dialogue beats: someone eats local cuisine, someone works too hard and falls asleep, Alisae gets angry at something, Alphinaud does a politic; Y'Shtola death fakeouts; Urianger can't swim. They really are shooting themselves in the foot trying to keep this cast together. None of it feels in service of any of these characters. And if all we wanted was to see G'Raha eat a taco and Thancred hunt for treasure, those singular plot beats are not enough to merit an entire story focused on these characters. All of this could have been happening in NPC dialogue and side quests.

It may be far too late to hope, but I really do hope the Scions stay out of the way once they get off the ship. I don't want them featuring in this story.

---

Also as a follow-up: I suspect this is more about politicking the voice actors and keeping everyone employed year by year.

In which case, I think a very adjacent complaint is having to listen to Amanda Achen again. I don't think her voice is so amazing that it needs to be in the permanent soundscape of the game. It is fine, but it doesn't feel very FF and felt very forced in Endwalker and now Dawntrail. The Open Sky track is especially cringey when she tries to squeak out a note that is too high for her to pull off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The standalone games are also separate stories, while XIV is one long continuing story, so that's apples and oranges.

---

Sure, but that doesn't mean we HAVE to drag every Scion along on every expansion. It would be fun to hit the new continent with some underdeveloped Scions and novel crew. It beats watching the same characters do the same things the second or third expansion in a row.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Also as a follow-up: I suspect this is more about politicking the voice actors and keeping everyone employed year by year.

In which case, I think a very adjacent complaint is having to listen to Amanda Achen again. I don't think her voice is so amazing that it needs to be in the permanent soundscape of the game. It is fine, but it doesn't feel very FF and felt very forced in Endwalker and now Dawntrail. The Open Sky track is especially cringey when she tries to squeak out a note that is too high for her to pull off.

---

Try japanese dub, it's night and day in comparison

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

My thoughts:

It would have been totally acceptable to have the Scions casually come along to the new world and spend the entire time chilling on vacation in the background A kind of easter egg appearance to reward them for the last ten years. I wouldn't mind if they were present as long as they were relegated to very minor cameos while we dealt in our own adventures and met new cast members. Krile and Erenville would have been plenty to serve as anchors for a new Dawntrail cast.

But making them all central players yet again just really cheapens the whole experience; even before the expansion has launched we can see a lot of forced writing to (a) get everyone over to Tural and (b) create motivational conflict. None of it feels natural. I can absolutely assure you we are going to see a lot of retrodden dialogue beats: someone eats local cuisine, someone works too hard and falls asleep, Alisae gets angry at something, Alphinaud does a politic; Y'Shtola death fakeouts; Urianger can't swim. They really are shooting themselves in the foot trying to keep this cast together. None of it feels in service of any of these characters. And if all we wanted was to see G'Raha eat a taco and Thancred hunt for treasure, those singular plot beats are not enough to merit an entire story focused on these characters. All of this could have been happening in NPC dialogue and side quests.

It may be far too late to hope, but I really do hope the Scions stay out of the way once they get off the ship. I don't want them featuring in this story.

---

Yeah I really like this take.

I would be fine with Scion social cameos, but I really don't want to see Alphinaud settle a local difference with an obvious solution again or watch Thancred sneak around again. I'd rather see some unknown characters we can meet and watch develop. Maybe even a bard!

Unpopular opinion on the forum: I have no desire to see them go, and I'm absolutely delighted that they're coming back with us. I have no desire for a new cast, and I would even find it rather inconsistent if our character agreed to leave behind friends who have been with them for a while now.

I would have been fine moving on from the Scions being around 24/7, and instead involving them in secondary content like Role Quests or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

I think it's more "stop calling us to deal with your problems now" as opposed to "let's stop hanging out". Like people who still hang out after their company closes.

---

And they go right back to dealing with another country's problems. Nothing changed.

It's just like how shows always get much better when the original cast gets replaced, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Merrigan

Unpopular opinion on the forum: I have no desire to see them go, and I'm absolutely delighted that they're coming back with us. I have no desire for a new cast, and I would even find it rather inconsistent if our character agreed to leave behind friends who have been with them for a while now.

---

We're not leaving them behind to mope and wait for our attention. EW literally ended with each character articulating what they would like to return to on their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HappyHubris

We're not leaving them behind to mope and wait for our attention. EW literally ended with each character articulating what they would like to return to on their own.

---

And indeed I think there's a bit of a writing problem here - in particular, I think the intermediate quests should have been done without them. To give them a break which, even though I wouldn't necessarily have been happy with it, seems to have been requested by some players. There would also have been the intermediate solution of letting them leave for an expansion (DT?) in order to respect these "last words".

But in itself, the fact that they're back in the limelight isn't too bad: the dissolution of the Scions is above all a way of acting independently of the city-states, and of affirming that from now on, the city-states will have to acquire the means to act on their own. Not that they're all going to bury themselves in their own holes. That's what I understood when they talked about "going back to their own business".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ath192

I thought we were done with them. Here is the thing, one of the reasons I'm less excited about dawntrail is because I was seriously under the impression that they were going to phase out the scions and introduce a new cast. It was the perfect opportunity to do so. For example, the scions disband and go about their desires and they can even make the occasional cameo.

Like, is it just me or wouldn't the story be much more exciting if we took the trip to the new world with just Erenville and that hrothgal and the trailers showed mysterious new characters we will meet along the way? That would be so much better...

There is nothing remarkable about the scions... I don't hate them, but TBH they are just not characters that I couldn't live without. A bunch of them have the personality of a wet mop and are all just about doing good... and yeah, cuz being good is good and what not.

Ugh, I don't know if SE believes this cast is more marketable than it actually is.. I feel like at least in my social circles, the scions are just people players put up with to play the game, they don't look forward to seeing what they're up to next. I could also be wrong, but idk, maybe a discussion forms around this. I am firmly in the new cast territory. Seeing the scions be a major part in Dawn Trail made me roll my eyes.

This just doesn't feel like a new beginning. And a lot of it is because of them.

---

I just see the scions as a parallel to a long standing tv series' cast - successful shows go around with the same cast for years (with occasional additions or subtractions) and nobody complains. Thing is that they need to keep character arcs evolving with time, and I think XIV is only partially successful in that,

Yeah i was also kind of hoping we'd start meeting new people. Like occasional Cameos from the original cast would be fine, but there's a certain point past which characters have finished their development, and the scions have long since done this. Now they're just around and (specifically Y'shtola) exist as exposition machines.

Like it's good we get more of a focus on Krile because she hasn't really done a lot up to this point. She's been around, but not much of a player in the story. Wish we had more though, could even be folks from the scion B team

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

It's just like how shows always get much better when the original cast gets replaced, right?

---

Depends on the longevity of the show, there are cases where the cast needs to be replaced or it gets stale because people have no idea what to do with the characters; I think this is one of those scenarios. But still I wouldn't use that logic though, why? Because shows are made to be binged, so you want to retain the original cast to some degree as usually characters are one of the reasons to continue watching the show. I would treat this more like a video game (bc it is) with returning characters in the next game (as each expansion is basically a new story). It's fine at first, but could you imagine playing a video game with the same cast for 6 games? Sounds excessive. There's a reason why RPGs switch the cast usually in the next install of the game, and that's because when another topic or another exploration is introduced, how could the previous characters possibly relate especially if its a whole new setting, you can get away with some of them but otherwise if you try and fit the entire cast it feels really forced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katish

Because shows are made to be binged, so you want to retain the original cast to some degree as usually characters are one of the reasons to continue watching the show

---

This is definitely a 21st century take on television shows. Broadcast television didn't create shows to be binge watched before streaming media, Nostalgic cable TV stations and DVDs of older shows made mass profits from a new generation watching older shows.

Most long-running broadcast television shows maintained their original cast because if too many cast members changed, people lost interest. If the original cast members of Friends or Seinfeld (as examples) had suddenly disappeared, the shows would have been a disaster. (Hmmmm. That might explain why the Friends spinoff, Joey, only lasted two seasons.)

MMORPGs are not "different games" in the sense of The Witcher and The Witcher 3. They are continuations of a single long-running game with multiple episodes and a gameplay and feel that has been fairly stable throughout the years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

This is definitely a 21st century take on television shows. Broadcast television didn't create shows to be binge watched before streaming media, Nostalgic cable TV stations and DVDs of older shows made mass profits from a new generation watching older shows.

Most long-running broadcast television shows maintained their original cast because if too many cast members changed, people lost interest. If the original cast members of Friends or Seinfeld (as examples) had suddenly disappeared, the shows would have been a disaster. (Hmmmm. That might explain why the Friends spinoff, Joey, only lasted two seasons.)

MMORPGs are not "different games" in the sense of The Witcher and The Witcher 3. They are continuations of a single long-running game with multiple episodes and a gameplay and feel that has been fairly stable throughout the years.

---

It certainly is a 21st century take, but those are the times we live. And binging is one of the reasons why streaming became big in the first place. But I agree.

As for the mmo portion, even in character development in msq...characters don't tend to stick. That is fairly an ffxiv thing (Vindictus, Mabinogi, Maplestory, WoW, etc do not do this typically). You might get cameos or side quests but that is typically it. The characters introduced are there for that msq and that's it, they usually aren't even main characters. Now lingering characters is not a bad thing, I fairly like that aspect of ffxiv, but again after a time they become dull and thus a need for a breath of fresh air. Even Mabinogi's background lingering characters were retired after 6 years...and that game is quite story heavy. (26 or so msqs maybe more by now)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katish

As for the mmo portion, even in character development in msq...characters don't tend to stick. That is fairly an ffxiv thing (Vindictus, Mabinogi, Maplestory, WoW, etc do not do this typically). You might get cameos or side quests but that is typically it.

---

This is simply not true though; there are a lot of MMOs out there, all very different. Some have long term characters, some don’t.

Guildwars 1 (like 30 years ago), was a game where a core group of NPCs were essentially the story drivers that you went with to do whatever expansions. Some new ones came and went, but typically you adventured with them from start to finish, over like 4 expansion packs. They still exist somewhat in the current Guildwars 2.

Guildwars 2 also continues this tradition, generally having some NPCs carry over from expansion to expansion.

Even FF11, which tended to have more expansion specific characters than not, would often utilize NPCs across expansions, even mixing them up a la Avengers for finales.

Point being, it’s not really a trend either way, it just depends on the story the devs want to tell and whether that warrants keeping a stable of consistent NPCs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaynide

This is simply not true though; there are a lot of MMOs out there, all very different. Some have long term characters, some don’t.

Guildwars 1 (like 30 years ago), was a game where a core group of NPCs were essentially the story drivers that you went with to do whatever expansions. Some new ones came and went, but typically you adventured with them from start to finish, over like 4 expansion packs. They still exist somewhat in the current Guildwars 2.

Guildwars 2 also continues this tradition, generally having some NPCs carry over from expansion to expansion.

Even FF11, which tended to have more expansion specific characters than not, would often utilize NPCs across expansions, even mixing them up a la Avengers for finales.

Point being, it’s not really a trend either way, it just depends on the story the devs want to tell and whether that warrants keeping a stable of consistent NPCs.

---

That is the sole reason why I brought up cameos. Lel main characters typically take breaks so they can introduce new characters in said plots, we really haven't had that it's been the same overall characters all the way back from ARR. With minor characters being removed or repurposed.

Note I said typically, there still does exists mmos where main characters are present in the story but that isn't the case in most mmos as most mmos, although they have a story, isn't exactly the main selling point of the game. In fact I even brought up an example last post of an mmo where main characters were present, as like FFXIV it is msq heavy (it kind of sells the game on the msq due to having multiple storylines or generations each year), but eventually got retired or they are there but have blended into the background. I think FFXIV needs the same or at least a break from the main cast. Especially after ten long years.

Though I agree, that there are multiple mmos that are vastly different that isn't the point though. The point is this game kind of sells itself on the msq and the characters in the msq, if you treat each expansion like a whole new game, such as myself, the characters start to smell like dead fish xD. If you disagree, that's fair...but I think a lot of people play this game strictly for the msq and that's it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katish

Though I agree, that there are multiple mmos that are vastly different that isn't the point though. The point is this game kind of sells itself on the msq and the characters in the msq, if you treat each expansion like a whole new game, such as myself, the characters start to smell like dead fish xD. If you disagree, that's fair...but I think a lot of people play this game strictly for the msq and that's it.

---

You say that like anyone who plays the game for the story will automatically dislike the Scions by this point, but that isn't the case.

The characters are "old friends" at this point and I have no desire for them to stop being part of the story.

We'll go to new places and meet new people in addition to them, but I don't have any desire for them to leave and be replaced with a different core cast.

They are the cast of FFXIV, and if I want a different group of characters I'll play a different game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

You say that like anyone who plays the game for the story will automatically dislike the Scions by this point, but that isn't the case. Even in irl I could not possibly stand friends if they were glued to me always.

The characters are "old friends" at this point and I have no desire for them to stop being part of the story.

We'll go to new places and meet new people in addition to them, but I don't have any desire for them to leave and be replaced with a different core cast.

They are the cast of FFXIV, and if I want a different group of characters I'll play a different game.

---

I only speak in my own voice, as I understand some people like the Scions. I do like the Scions as well but again to me they have stuck around for too long that I need a break. This is the only game I have played where the main crew felt like they're stalkers than actual characters xD. Even irl, I could not stand a friend if there were always glued to me, even as a collective "friend group". And just cause I talk to new friends or remain by my lonesome, does not mean I do not cherish the friends I have made, in fact it amplifies that cause it allows me to collect my thoughts in how I feel about them, but if they are always around I can't do that.

Just imagine if we had the same conversation IRL though. The violence of this :

"Nah sorry mate, I won't hang out with you anymore. I've finished your character arc. Just do cameo from now on please"

"But... But we've known each other for 10 years, I don't...

"Yeah, that's right. You're starting to get a bit repetitive."

"... You're a bastard"

"No no, you misunderstood me; I still want to see your face from time to time. Stay close enough so we can see each other every few months, for my nostalgia shots, but don't follow me any more, otherwise I'll call the cops".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katish

This is the only game I have played where the main crew felt like they're stalkers than actual characters xD. Even irl, I could not stand a friend if there were always glued to me, even as a collective "friend group".

---

We spend, like, a couple of hours with them every few months, and they're doing their own stuff in between.

At a game level, we do a pretty huge chunk of our gameplay without interacting with them, and story-wise it's clear that they're not with the WoL at all times – it's just that the times when they are together are the times when the story is being told about them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaynide

This is simply not true though; there are a lot of MMOs out there, all very different. Some have long term characters, some don’t.

Guildwars 1 (like 30 years ago), was a game where a core group of NPCs were essentially the story drivers that you went with to do whatever expansions. Some new ones came and went, but typically you adventured with them from start to finish, over like 4 expansion packs. They still exist somewhat in the current Guildwars 2.

Guildwars 2 also continues this tradition, generally having some NPCs carry over from expansion to expansion.

Even FF11, which tended to have more expansion specific characters than not, would often utilize NPCs across expansions, even mixing them up a la Avengers for finales.

Point being, it’s not really a trend either way, it just depends on the story the devs want to tell and whether that warrants keeping a stable of consistent NPCs.

---

Guild wars 2 did just release an expansion where all of our old friends split and started living their lives after the huge story arc culmination in the prior expansion. Now the PC is on a new adventure with one familiar face that we didn't spend much time with prior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

We spend, like, a couple of hours with them every few months, and they're doing their own stuff in between.

At a game level, we do a pretty huge chunk of our gameplay without interacting with them, and story-wise it's clear that they're not with the WoL at all times – it's just that the times when they are together are the times when the story is being told about them.

---

Unfortunately unsure if this is true, the passage of time =/= in game passage of time. We have no idea how much time is passing and it seems like it is relatively nearby i.e not months but maybe weeks. If it were months the twins would relatively be giraffes or heading that way, which does not fit the exact narrative. Game lore would say otherwise to "months..." It's strange that world changing events are happening so close, but it is what it is I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katish

Unfortunately unsure if this is true, the passage of time =/= in game passage of time. We have no idea how much time is passing and it seems like it is relatively nearby i.e not months but maybe weeks.

---

Seeing your friends every few weeks still isn't "stalking" and being "glued" to you.

And the story is deliberately vague about time and not tracking it as it should be tracked. Sometimes they talk as if it really has been months since we last saw each other, but the game's artificial approach to time means that nobody has gotten any older.