Linear, linear, linear

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Wow that's a bold opinion. I felt that a lot of the changes that came with HW were good ones and that the expac was a huge step up from ARR overall.

---

HW started the trend of horrible open world design and has probably the worst open world maps in this game. Azys Lla, half of Sea of Clouds, half of Dravanian Forelands, basically the entire Coerthan West; they all are incredibly empty and pointless, and many are just huge squares.

HW maps are practically just ARR maps except you stretch the points of interest far apart and color the void with AI-generated terrain paint. All the subsequent expansions are no different. I would say it's the worst open world maps I've ever played but that would be a lie because there's Assassin's Creed Valhalla.

There is literally more lore, ambient NPCs, points of interest packed in an ARR map vs. HW despite the HW one being like four times larger or something. ARR maps feel like places people lived in and engaged with (like hot springs, empty huts, cerulean pipe lines). HW maps feel like going to Antarctica and being disappointed it's literally just a blank void.

If they can't fill the open world with enough points of interest just make the map smaller and denser and spend more resources on making interesting terrain (like Eureka Pagos)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thevanguard

HW started the trend of horrible open world design and has probably the worst open world maps in this game. Azys Lla, half of Sea of Clouds, half of Dravanian Forelands, basically the entire Coerthan West; they all are incredibly empty and pointless, and many are just huge squares.

HW maps are practically just ARR maps except you stretch the points of interest far apart and color the void with AI-generated terrain paint. All the subsequent expansions are no different. I would say it's the worst open world maps I've ever played but that would be a lie because there's Assassin's Creed Valhalla.

There is literally more lore, ambient NPCs, points of interest packed in an ARR map vs. HW despite the HW one being like four times larger or something. ARR maps feel like places people lived in and engaged with (like hot springs, empty huts, cerulean pipe lines). HW maps feel like going to Antarctica and being disappointed it's literally just a blank void.

If they can't fill the open world with enough points of interest just make the map smaller and denser and spend more resources on making interesting terrain (like Eureka Pagos)

---

Ugh dont get me started on how annoying it was doing the HW tribal quests. Yeah good idea to spread the aetherytes as inconvenient as we can and having one of its zones aetheryte-less forcing you to warp to Idyllshire and having yourself walk out to the zone.

Sorry fam but HW zones takes the cake for having the worst zone designs, even if the set dressing is nice like Sea of Clouds and Azys Lla

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thevanguard

ARR maps feel like places people lived in and engaged with (like hot springs, empty huts, cerulean pipe lines). HW maps feel like going to Antarctica and being disappointed it's literally just a blank void.

If they can't fill the open world with enough points of interest just make the map smaller and denser and spend more resources on making interesting terrain (like Eureka Pagos)

---

This.


It's why I honestly wasn't a fan when they added flying to the ARR zones, all that really did is that people don't even see how much more detail those zones have compared to anything that came after.
Not like it took very long to get around the maps in the first place after you got the riding maps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thevanguard

HW started the trend of horrible open world design and has probably the worst open world maps in this game. Azys Lla, half of Sea of Clouds, half of Dravanian Forelands, basically the entire Coerthan West; they all are incredibly empty and pointless, and many are just huge squares.

HW maps are practically just ARR maps except you stretch the points of interest far apart and color the void with AI-generated terrain paint. All the subsequent expansions are no different. I would say it's the worst open world maps I've ever played but that would be a lie because there's Assassin's Creed Valhalla.

There is literally more lore, ambient NPCs, points of interest packed in an ARR map vs. HW despite the HW one being like four times larger or something. ARR maps feel like places people lived in and engaged with (like hot springs, empty huts, cerulean pipe lines). HW maps feel like going to Antarctica and being disappointed it's literally just a blank void.

If they can't fill the open world with enough points of interest just make the map smaller and denser and spend more resources on making interesting terrain (like Eureka Pagos)

---

Man, I felt the complete opposite. I really liked flying around the vast, undiscovered, and unchecked wilderness. I got explorer on an expedition type vibes. But that's just me though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Man, I felt the complete opposite. I really liked flying around the vast, undiscovered, and unchecked wilderness. I got explorer on an expedition type vibes. But that's just me though.

---

Probably because difference is refreshing, until you realize how much you lose because of it. Grass is always greener or something like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

Probably because difference is refreshing, until you realize how much you lose because of it. Grass is always greener or something like that.

---

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

---

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

I've made more friends from casually doing things in open world ARR than in HW-EW.

I think ARR had better overall player distribution through the world, where everything HW+ was just linear with almost no backtracking the whole way.

Also real doesn't equate fun. Never has. It was done just to satiate flying as a mechanic, and probably even reduce server resource load by limiting the amount of passive player interaction.

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

Y-you know w-what made the game more linear for me? ... the removal of " Kaiten " !! big nods!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But, what was actually lost, unless one considers any additional time taken in traversing the terrain as an absolute downside?

Even at the worst count, HW+ zones have (at least) as many features per zone as do ARR zones. They just also happen to have more space between them, which can come with advantages is building an aesthetic and making the zone seem more realistic.

---

Detail in zones, be that environment clutter, points of interest or landmarks.

I guess you could also say the newer zones lost "immersion", as limited as it already is in XIV, because after ARR you rarely ever find random NPCs going about their day or even buildings that you can enter anymore.

I think a step in the right direction towards making players spend more time in the open world of XIV would be to allow the gathering node detecting skills to be on no matter the job. I was used to this being the case in Rift way back when I played that and I still miss it immensely. Traveling from point A to point B felt a lot less like wasting my time when I could gather a plant for my potions here and mine some ore for weapons there. It felt rewarding to walk places instead of teleporting because there was always stuff to find along the way. I have been playing some Genshin Impact and I feel like the same applies there as well. There are a few select things you can only gather if you have a specific element/weapon character active, but you can still SEE that the thing is there. In XIV, unless you constantly have a gathering node map open or you have memorized the gathering spots, you have no clue.

The gathering nodes aren't exactly obvious, either. Sure, you gather wood from trees (mostly), but they look the exact same as all the other trees in the area. You can't look at the area and go "Oh hey! These are the flowers I need for X potion, let me pick them up!" because that one bush has 5 different gathering drops and you have no way of knowing unless your Botanist is active. Unfortunately, it's too late to ask them to change this because they would have to overhaul the entire game, but one can dream, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

---

I can only think of a few places where that really applied to ARR. But, at the same time, I can equally think of as many in the Sea of Clouds, The Fringes, Tempest, etc. Both before and after flight, player density was very much 'snapped' to particular hotspots. Population wasn't more spread about the world because the world's value was more spread, but simply because any particular snapshot of all players' activity in the zone was less likely to be spent in travel in close proximity of each other (in that time moving to places of actual value to them).

You were no more likely to meet someone actually doing things not along the route between FATEs in South Shroud, Eastern La Noscea, Central Coerthas, or Eastern or Northern Thanalan, etc. than in HW zones (though I largely blame the lower relative density of gathering loops for that, if we are to include this game's shitty 'gathering' as an open world use). People just rode by what wasn't lucrative even then, just as they'd fly by it later.

The problem of most of the world seeming not worth spending time in wasn't new to larger zones. Nor were lively NPC-populated settlements fewer in, say, Dravanian Forelands than the likes of East Shroud.

I'll agree wholly that it would have been great to spread out and vary the reasons for interaction with the open world, but... that's not a mere matter of density. That's a matter of too limited of lucrative activities.

Simply shrinking zones again, for instance -- let alone to the constant invisible walls and claustrophobia of so many of ARR's zones -- isn't going to make the world more lively. It never has been. At best, it was just slightly easier to pretend otherwise before.

If we want a more lively world, we'll need to do more with the world itself, not just to shorten the distances between everything (e.g., to the absurdities of a fort within cannon-shot of another fort within cannon-shot of another fort, all to protect... no one who couldn't already be evacuated equally easily to the central fort itself [compare against the far more sensible 1.x Coerthas distribution of NPC populations]).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Detail in zones, be that environment clutter, points of interest or landmarks.

---

Except there's at least an equal amount [not necessarily portion or density, but yes, amount] of details (just not as necessarily of a 'populated' sort, since it's supposed to be... well, frontier), and, heck, a majority of the points of interests / landmarks / favorite views from ground level that stick in mind for me... were from the larger zones, even back when ARR's zones outnumbered them.

Quote:

---

I guess you could also say the newer zones lost "immersion", as limited as it already is in XIV, because after ARR you rarely ever find random NPCs going about their day

---

Except in, you know, most of those zones?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I think a step in the right direction towards making players spend more time in the open world of XIV would be to allow the gathering node detecting skills to be on no matter the job.

---

Agreed. I feel like the complete separation of gathering from combat classes and gameplay was... about the worst decision they could make for trying to situate gathering interestingly in the larger world, but even just giving more opportunity to notice those nodes without having to be dressed prior in your 'mobs, please kill me in two hits' gear would be pretty big help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...

---

Size of the map definitely matters, and flying has significantly affected the amount of passerbys overall. Then obviously the next major problem is we keep making new zones every expansion while continuing to stretch the MSQ itself, so only a fraction of players are ever even doing the same content together. The only time this game's open world feels even remotely lively is weekend of a BLU update, when it should be every day. I don't know if I'd even count hunt farms - Because that's such a slog, and requires no brain power or discussion either.

Leves are gone, so even there's less reason..

This is how I remember ARR, not 100% dungeon spam: https://youtu.be/G6GtJJzkoWI

It's funny because I bet they thought it'd force players to interact with each other by only doing dungeons, but they decided to dumb those down too so most players never need to talk to finish them.

Everything requiring any form of human interaction as a game (except raid) has been entirely stripped from XIV's daily life. It feels soulless most of the time. :/

XIV is the silent single-player MMO now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.pnghttps://i.ibb.co/Q67vX04/X.gif https://i.ibb.co/HHMmJ70/kaiten.png

Y-you know w-what made the game more linear for me? ... the removal of " Kaiten " !! big nods!!

---

On Discord every time I use that emoji it makes me think of you and Kaiten u3u

I prefer linear. I have tried Skyrim so many times over the years because of recommendations from friends. It looks like a game I would love on paper. Then I play it, and Im just...always lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I was used to this being the case in Rift way back when I played that and I still miss it immensely. Traveling from point A to point B felt a lot less like wasting my time when I could gather a plant for my potions here and mine some ore for weapons there. It felt rewarding to walk places instead of teleporting because there was always stuff to find along the way.

---

Out of curiosity, are you thinking of their artifact system when talking about finding things along the way? That was interesting though I think it should have been fleshed out slightly more when it came to what info was on the artifacts. Get all the artifacts in a collection, report to the NPC that would then give you a small reward for the completion.

Something I would bring up in the flying debates in WoW during WoD is that it's not flying that takes away value from ground. It's the lack of content that the player wants to engage with. There are only so many times one can travel from point A to point B before they mentally start tuning it all out if there is nothing new to see along the way. A lack of flying is also more obstructive to players with less time to play and so they have to be more efficient with what time they have available. If there is content on the ground that player wants to do, they will be on the ground doing it. It's not flying that gets in the way, It's the lack of interest.

Something like RIFT's artifact system would give players who want more reason to be on the ground and exploring exactly that. You didn't know what you would find or where. Maybe it would be out in the open on a path, or maybe it would be on the branch of a tree, or even on a rooftop that required a small jumping puzzle to reach. If there was a specific artifact needed for multiple collections, it may not spawn in the same place when you try to get it for the next collection. Because the rewards generally weren't extremely generous, players not interested in engaging with the system could easily ignore it but the rewards were still enough for those who were interested (open the small chest for consumables and a chance at low level gear to use or sell, save up lucky coins to get a minion or housing item, etc.)

Again, it's not flying that's the problem. It's the lack of content that players want to do that is the problem. Some enjoy doing hunts, FATEs, gathering, etc. so they spend a lot of time in the open world. Others prefer the instance grind and so they don't.

Taking flying away isn't going to solve anything if the content isn't there to catch the player's interest. If the content is there, then players will naturally congregate where it is to help increase player interaction even if they're still able to fly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I prefer linear. I have tried Skyrim so many times over the years because of recommendations from friends. It looks like a game I would love on paper. Then I play it, and Im just...always lost.

---

There is a fairly linear story to follow if you want. But it's very easy to get distracted by the side content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bunnycake

On Discord every time I use that emoji it makes me think of you and Kaiten u3u

---

This person is fighting the good fight. We gotta keep that copium alive that one day it'll return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

XIV is the silent single-player MMO now.

---

I agree. I just don't think the symptom you're fixating on is remotely the cause, nor even a really a contributing context.

Quote:

---

This is how I remember ARR, not 100% dungeon spam: https://youtu.be/G6GtJJzkoWI

---

So... you fondly remember soloing leves... rather than even... any of the group content (that was far, far more popularly done even back in ARR)? Sure, you could see a fellow player doing their leves in the distance, but you were effectively shard-ed away from one another, prevented from affecting anything they were fighting.

And, again... Heavensward didn't remove Battle Leves anyways. That didn't happen until later.

:: For my part, I remember ARR via FATEs and shout-formed dungeon groups (often missing either a healer or tank or even just running with 4 SMNs, since we could kite all but ranged enemies and Titan could boss TBs and especially AoEs just fine back then).

Quote:

---

Everything requiring any form of human interaction as a game (except raid) has been entirely stripped from XIV's daily life. It feels soulless most of the time. :/

---

It still has exactly the same amount it had before, minus only leves and the hunting log after level 60 (replaced by more frequent and lucrative Clan Hunts). And that's if excluding Exploratory Missions from remotely 'open-world' content.

These problems aren't new. They've been the norm since ARR itself. The last time people actually cared about random treasure, the mob sites/camps themselves, or varied/personally set gathering loops... was in 1.x.

If you want those problems dealt with, then it'd be better to look at the disease, not just some reflection of a particular symptom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

The easiest answer to that is density allows more casual player interaction. The second obvious one is you no longer appreciate the environment because you're always flying around.

---

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...

---

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

Forgetting about content types contribute nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Why can't you "appreciate the environment" while in flight? It gives you vast sweeping views of the environment, or you can fly low and get the same experience as walking (but faster).

---

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

---

I don't see a difference. One way or another you are moving yourself across a landscape.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't see a difference. One way or another you are moving yourself across a landscape.

---

That's a bit lonely and sad tbh, you're looking at it as a means to an end. I prefer to accidentally bump into people and things.

It's why I still try and strike up random conversations in dungeons, but it's usually clear everyone's just going through the motions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

I don't find enjoyment out of games by just looking at them.

---

The existence of flying doesn't take that away from you. You have the ability to be on the ground interacting with the game world. You are not forced to fly.

The option to fly is there for those who want it. There have been many times I've gone on foot in game even though I had the option to fly because on that particular day I felt like walking/running.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

The existence of flying doesn't take that away from you. You have the ability to be on the ground interacting with the game world. You are not forced to fly.

The option to fly is there for those who want it. There have been many times I've gone on foot in game even though I had the option to fly because on that particular day I felt like walking/running.

---

99 times out of 100, you're going to fly the distance.

When given the option for things that are combined both easier, and less social - People will always pick the easy option. It's again, a part of why our world feels absolutely lifeless. Because it lacks struggle and forced social interaction, and that's an issue that bleeds into all sections of the casual gameplay. The only time this isn't true is raid. So the options we're given are just extremes.

Obviously removing flying alone wouldn't fix this massive issue - If you think that's the discussion, you're missing the point here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

That's a bit lonely and sad tbh, you're looking at it as a means to an end. I prefer to accidentally bump into people and things.

It's why I still try and strike up random conversations in dungeons, but it's usually clear everyone's just going through the motions.

---

If everyone flies, then you're going to cross paths in the air as much as on the ground. Either way people are just as likely to ride past and continue on their own questing.

I just enjoy seeing people around. I don't need to interact directly.

Dungeons are different because you're a team doing an activity together, and even then, I'm just as happy to be with people doing a thing without necessarily needing to make small talk during it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

Soloing Leves? Just because the vid has a dude soloing them, doesn't mean we didn't do parties of zone activities.

Removing Leves contributed nothing.

---

So, I don't quite get this:

You make the claim earlier that HW effectively 'removed', say, leves, Additional Actions, Additional Attributes, etc., just because they didn't make further effort to situate those systems.

But let's consider that 'situating' here, as it applies to leves. While leves do awkwardly section away leve mobs so that others can see but cannot interact with them (or even each others' leves), they do not section leve-runners away from the existing world mobs. As such, leve-runners would frequently complain about having to fight non-leve enemies while doing their leves just because their areas overlapped.

The result, from early beta: to leave room for leves, fewer mobs populated the landscape itself and FATE counts were kept fewer, and their affected area kept more limited, as not to as greatly overlap with leve areas.

So, yes, in terms of situating potential actual open-world elements (instead of solo/party-locked play that just happens to be done in the same area), removing leves actually did contribute something.

Was that 'something' ever acted upon? No. Which is why I'm not a fan of leves removal, per se. But, make no mistake: leves were a really shitty bandaid over a more fundamental issue, and which worsened that fundamental issue.

Quote:

---

Different forms of appreciation. One is looking at a painting, the other is interacting with it. Most people will always prefer the easy option, it's why we're in this mess to begin with.

---

Relative to their zones, they're... the same travel times. Outside of ARR flight, neither one is any 'easier' than the other. You use your mount to bypass mobs... or you use your mount to bypass mobs and maybe take a single inconsequential hit that quickly heals back up.

If you're counting making more turns as difficulty... that'd likewise be possible if we had what was suggested earlier -- physics-based flight and mount Stamina. The lack of interaction isn't a problem with going fast. It's a problem with "flying" like some sort of NoClip God-Mode spectator, instead of anything akin to actual flight.

Tl;dr:

• Zone size isn't an issue. Detail count, number of points of interest, are the travel times between them are the actual points of concern, and those were unchanged by zone size. (An abandoned or frontier zone being less populated may instead have more to do with it being... abandoned or... a frontier.)
  
  
• Similarly, of all the things to miss from ARR that could have instead been expanded upon, leves are not that. They were a bandaid that themselves previously worsened what opportunities zones had available to them for their design. Combined with smaller zones, they are a large factor of why we lost the open-world dungeons and larger, more complex mob camps from 1.x.
  
  
• Most importantly, neither the expanding of zone sizes nor the removal of leves --nor anything for which those would be synecdochical-- are what made the world feel like short of opportunities for immersion. That comes down instead to issues that have been present since 1.x and, especially, since ARR -- the clumping of all uses of interest for the world into relatively few spaces and activities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...

---

Congratulations, you realize the problem is the sum of their parts. I'm not digging on just flying. I'm saying it's a form of social separation and risk reduction, as all of our systems tend to be.

Where XIV has avoided all possible risk, they've avoided most social engagement. We're to the point we need night clubs to invent that engagement.

What a stupid argument anyway - It's not like you actually enjoy the world as it currently is, literally adding anything to it would make it substantially better. We're just arguing to argue, on top of a hill of shit. We're just trying to see who is more righter-er about how shit the zones are. They're shit, and nobody's engaging in them socially. That's a fact we both know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

Congratulations, you realize the problem is the sum of their parts. I'm not digging on just flying. I'm saying it's a form of social separation and risk reduction, as all of our systems tend to be.

Where XIV has avoided all possible risk, they've avoided most social engagement. We're to the point we need night clubs to invent that engagement.

---

Then let's get back to that core problem, instead of reflections ultimately irrelevant to it?

We'll skip the whole discussion on the joy of movement or such, as that's mostly related only to flight*. In its place, let's consider just how we might better populate the world and distribute player activities as to increase the chances of player interaction in the open world without it feeling forced.

(You might consider this to be finding, for instance, a happy medium between maximizing the availability of player meetings and minimizing the chance that those meetings are of no note [just passing by each other or merely traveling to the next node of significance].)

* Note that while ground mounts aren't as crippled by a lack of physics as are flying mounts, they could have still have significant opportunity for improvement. Apart from the obvious example of GW2 mounts or the like, just think of what might be accomplished with terrain that features fewer invisible walls and, instead, more gaps to leap, or revised mob camps or dynamic mob packs through which one might, alternatively, dismount and sneak or simply ride at full tilt (think of Witcher 3's double-sprint on mount, with accordant Stamina limitations).

____________

A thread that might be of interest to you: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...9-Zone-for-7.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then let's get back to that core problem, instead of reflections ultimately irrelevant to it?

We'll skip the whole discussion on the joy of movement or such, as that's mostly related only to flight*. In its place, let's consider just how we might better populate the world and distribute player activities as to increase the chances of player interaction in the open world without it feeling forced.

(You might consider this to be finding, for instance, a happy medium between maximizing the availability of player meetings and minimizing the chance that those meetings are of no note [just passing by each other or merely traveling to the next node of significance].)

* Note that while ground mounts aren't as crippled by a lack of physics as are flying mounts, they could have still have significant opportunity for improvement. Apart from the obvious example of GW2 mounts or the like, just think of what might be accomplished with terrain that features fewer invisible walls and, instead, more gaps to leap, or revised mob camps or dynamic mob packs through which one might, alternatively, dismount and sneak or simply ride at full tilt (think of Witcher 3's double-sprint on mount, with accordant Stamina limitations).

---

We need zone backtracking. We can't be treating the whole world like we treat the MSQ - Linearly only going forward.

We also can't survive by separating the playerbase along a decade of content. It didn't work for WoW, it won't work here. I don't know why Yoshi thinks we can just strongarm it into working for us, when it stopped feeling lively around Stormblood.

FF is about innovation, it's time for CBU:III to do just that. They've created systems, but they refuse to expand on them and branch them out. Like how Critical Engagements would be amazing for random open world Hunts instead of the horrible hunt trains we have today. There just needs to be more systems for player interaction and engagement, and more reasons to backtrack as a higher level player going to lower level areas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Then I play it, and Im just...always lost.

---

Imagine getting lost in Skyrim when it's literally press J and press M.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

FF is about innovation, it's time for CBU:III to do just that

---

The timekeeper is calling and it wants you to go back to pre-2006.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R041

We need zone backtracking.

---

Elaborate?

Are you looking for people to go back to parts of zones they've already outleveled? To go back to zones they've already outleveled? To need to return to a hub after each activity? What is this "backtracking" that you want?

Quote:

---

We can't be treating the whole world like we treat the MSQ - Linearly only going forward.

---

As opposed to? Going from zone A to B to A to C to B to D to A to B to E...? What's the alternative here that you're looking for?

It feels like that's still ultimately going to create no greater number of paths forward, just more loopy of ones. If that appeals to you, then cool, but I don't imagine it'd be any less linear in terms of how few choices are available. Such is a consequence, first and foremost, of the MSQ (and zones in FF only having ever intended to be MSQ backdrops, even in ARR).

Quote:

---

We also can't survive by separating the playerbase along a decade of content.

---

Are you trying to hint at 'We should abolish levels and let players skip ahead in the MSQ'? If not, they're going to be split by their level and MSQ-based progress across zones regardless of whatever you do to those zones themselves.

Quote:

---

I don't know why Yoshi thinks we can just strongarm it into working for us, when it stopped feeling lively around Stormblood.

---

Trying to "strongarm"... new zones onto us? What? What's this thing being strongarmed onto us?

Quote:

---

FF is about innovation, it's time for CBU:III to do just that. They've created systems, but they refuse to expand on them and branch them out. Like how Critical Engagements would be amazing for random open world Hunts instead of the horrible hunt trains we have today. There just needs to be more systems for player interaction and engagement, and more reasons to backtrack as a higher level player going to lower level areas.

---

Okay. What appeals to you about CEs (over unmarked Hunts)? Do you want Hunts also to be signaled to everyone and marked on the map and for people to be able to be teleported in, or is it just the mechanics that appeal to you more from X Critical Engagement over, say, the likes of Go Go Gorgimera (North Thanalan Notorious Monster Fate with multiple waves/phases)?

Are there any other examples that come to mind?

_______

For my part:

Outside of WPvP, if the world doesn't move even when the players aren't a part of it, it's unlikely to seem lively when players are given a part within it, either. As such, zones should have many-layered moving parts in their own right. Players should simply leverage existing momentums, allowing for further escalation where the zone would otherwise balance itself back out.

For instance, let's say we have caravans moving between settlement A and B. There should be NPC crafters that supply those caravans, and gatherers in turn who supply them. More players help out the gatherers -> more craft orders from the NPCs. More craft orders from the NPCs -> more or higher value goods sent on the caravans. Assuming there's no WPvP available, then you'd have solely NPC bandits, but they in turn may scale in count/quality with the total value of goods being carried by those caravans. Caravans may hire some NPC guards normally, but never quite enough to keep the bandits from running off with some stuff, which in turn reduces the maximum number of wagons sent out (which in turn reduces the profits for players supplying or working for the crafters, etc.), but players may offer their services or take contracts to keep them safe, allowing things to escalate yet further (more bandits, bigger caravans, etc.) All that would be one "ring", "system", or "layer" of the living world.

Add to that destructible watch-towers along the route, or bandit camps getting so large that they invite the interest of a neighboring area's bandit lord, causing a territory war between them that may in turn start recruiting nearby beast tribes. With that, you have a second "ring" to that living world, where two systems meet (beastmen or outside camps may interact with this local and otherwise closed system).

Now, start adding some key NPCs, such as the bandit lords themselves and their lieutenants. Give them names, give them personalities. Give us ways to sneak into their base and see how things are run. Finally, give them ways to escape death that players will like more than dislike, so that their story can continue being told, developing as things go.

(Or heck, perhaps even allow for player interactions of... 'alternate' legality, so that players can have a hand in re-cycling those actors, such as in tentatively joining one of those bandit camps, allying with a beast tribe without needing a rep grind to encourage such, etc.)

Involve notorious monsters, named (not to be killed, only pushed back) or otherwise (where the particular species and appearance would be randomized, within reason). Hell, make it so some of those notorious monsters would require a true capped-population-instance effort to kill or rout, and maybe even require player-and-NPC-built-up fortifications and armaments. Perhaps include seasonal events. Definitely vary things via weather. Give us some additional randomization in the form of roaming actors (corporations, faction incursions, GC training, farther-traveling merchant or nomadic raiders, multi-zone beastmen uprisings, and the like). Etc., etc.

That said, such barebone implementations as FATEs as they are now, much like leves, really do constrain what would be possible for more involved systems like those. They'd have to be rehauled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Striker44

This is, frankly, entirely an "us" issue (as in the players). They used to create dungeons with multiple paths, optional side areas, etc.. What did we the playerbase do? Find which path was "optimal" for the fastest clear, and completely ignore anything that was optional. Case in point - every single ARR dungeon I played, the only way I ever got the map completion achievements for them (which involves exploring all of those side paths) was to queue as the tank and insist on going to them. This isn't about SE. This is what we did as players when they created non-linear content. I'm not surprised at all that SE simply started designing the content the way we insisted on playing it anyway.

---

You're not wrong, but this is also something a developer of games would keep in mind and probably circumvent somehow if they felt like being creative. It's human nature to want to opt for the best option, but we also want some semblance of variety. This is the challenge facing CBU3, and probably all game devs to an extent. Instead of tackling it head-on by simply making the different paths worth exploring somehow (EXP boosts, worthwhile loot, a simple gate that won't open unless the path is explored, etc; these aren't super imaginative but I'm also not paid to do this for a living and I'm just naming examples to demonstrate that possibilities exist), they took the bitch-way out and simply eliminated all exploration. Imagine if all designers did this in all games, what a boring genre of entertainment we'd have. "Well, we figured you'd go for the quickest way to the end of the game, so we made a game that opens on the final boss." "Well, we could've designed multiple swords, but only one was the best in slot so we figured we'd just give you that one right out the gate," like just because people are likely to opt for the best option, doesn't mean you stop designing multiple options. You just have to change how those options are implemented and what incentives you're providing to get players to explore those other options in the first place.

Basically this shit's lazy af and totally blaming the players for it is kinda scuffed but not entirely inaccurate.

This thread was slowly whittled away, like 2 whole pages are gone. lol

By the way, what's it mean when someone doesn't have medals next to their avatar? ;)