Revelations from Patch 6.4: The Dark Throne

They gated Shadowbringers relic behind Stormblood 24-man raid. It's not a big ask to force players to do Eden. It's just 12 quick trials.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Again: you think that because you already did all of those things voluntarily, so to you this is not a big ask. This would be poison to the greater community and long-term growth of the game, because a whole lot of people don't do those things for actual reasons, they don't want to be forced to.

Think about what your response would be to the game gating the next expansion behind Feast of Famine. Think about that as the barrier, rather than content you already did so you don't think it's a barrier.

...Actually probably a bad example, I can tell Heroman's already done that quest, but looking at his achievements there's very little he hasn't done except for a weird smattering of jobs I can't find pattern to. But my point is 'you think this isn't a barrier because it wasn't to you personally, so substitute it with something you actually don't want to do'.

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The only really 'too difficult' or 'too long' content currently in the category I mention is Bahamut Raids with their difficulty. IMO, they should be reworked to be on par with existing raids in their level-synced difficulty either way, regardless of whether they're made mandatory or not.

Also pattern to jobs I have and haven't done is "I've done one in every role for ShB/EW role quest purposes, and rest are being done slowly over time in order of which aesthetics I like more", if you're actually curious.

Either way, the fact that stuff like Gaia, Gaius, all the Ivalice stuff, all the Mhach stuff are locked in the 'side content jail' is plain terrible. Because I am certain there will be time when instead of taking those characters out of that jail, they will just make blander copies 'fit for MSQ' and that will suck both for the side content and MSQ. Although with the fact that they weren't at all afraid to do things like locking Bozja behind Ivalice or locking EW relics behind *MANDERVILLE* of all things is a sign that they have no qualms about making things require you go through past content.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

They gated Shadowbringers relic behind Stormblood 24-man raid. It's not a big ask to force players to do Eden. It's just 12 quick trials.

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That was gating side content behind other side content though.

I would like for them to make more of the easy side content mandatory for MSQ plot's sake, but that isn't proof of them doing it.

Them making Hildibrand mandatory for the EW relics was also unpopular, remember, and Hildibrand is the easiest side-content in the entire game. (well, unless you have a crippling allergy to extremely Japanese slapstick and jokes that don't work outside their original cultural contexts; if you do Hildibrand can be kinda tough.)

Basically the only times I've seen locking future side-content behind past side-content be received positively are were when the future side content is basically just cutscenes (void quests, Tataru), because that turns it into just a continuation of the plot, which is absolutely what they're gonna do with Gaia eventually, possibly very soon. Bozja behind Ivalice got early grumbles, mostly from people who suddenly had to get those raid queues to pop, but ironically Bozja itself seemed to solve that problem by incentivizing the Ivalice raids later on; not exactly a solution that's available fairly often, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Them making Hildibrand mandatory for the EW relics was also unpopular, remember, and Hildibrand is the easiest side-content in the entire game. (well, unless you have a crippling allergy to extremely Japanese slapstick and jokes that don't work outside their original cultural contexts; if you do Hildibrand can be kinda tough.)

Basically the only times I've seen locking future side-content behind past side-content be received positively are were when the future side content is basically just cutscenes (void quests, Tataru), because that turns it into just a continuation of the plot, which is absolutely what they're gonna do with Gaia eventually, possibly very soon. Bozja behind Ivalice got early grumbles, mostly from people who suddenly had to get those raid queues to pop, but ironically Bozja itself seemed to solve that problem by incentivizing the Ivalice raids later on; not exactly a solution that's available fairly often, sadly.

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One piece of content I don't see much potential for anything to be locked behind (to my extreme dismay) is Role Quests. Both 'capstone' role quests for ShB with void stuff and EW with Garlemald stuff have such great potential for future stories, but are locked behind one thing I don't think SE will have the courage to lock anything behind - having at least 4 (or 5 for EW) different jobs levelled all the way to 80 (90 for EW). That IS a barrier of entry too big and that's why it's saddening to see some of best plot hooks for future be put in the Role Quest finales.

If they add a caster and ranged in 7.0 and then tank and healer in 8.0, they will start at level 80 and 90 and players can unlock them and immediately do the ShB role quests

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Originally Posted by Yuella

If they add a caster and ranged in 7.0 and then tank and healer in 8.0, they will start at level 80 and 90 and players can unlock them and immediately do the ShB role quests

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I dread the leveling roulette come 7.0, when we're going to get people (quite possibly even tanks) doing Holminster Switch on jobs and roles they've never touched before in their life.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I dread the leveling roulette come 7.0, when we're going to get people (quite possibly even tanks) doing Holminster Switch on jobs and roles they've never touched before in their life.

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Didn't we have that already with fresh gunbreakers? Course I still run into the "I just got to HW and I now I can finally play as DRK and stop playing as this other role." in other sections of the game. It's those kinds of players that make me go why didn't you play something else in the role so you could at least know how something in that sort of slot plays? Course that only really works for Healers and Tanks as even dps that are in the same sub category play differently.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Didn't we have that already with fresh gunbreakers? Course I still run into the "I just got to HW and I now I can finally play as DRK and stop playing as this other role." in other sections of the game. It's those kinds of players that make me go why didn't you play something else in the role so you could at least know how something in that sort of slot plays? Course that only really works for Healers and Tanks as even dps that are in the same sub category play differently.

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Oh, hey, you're right. I guess I just didn't really notice becuase I mostly play healers, so I dodged the Sages that don't understand their kit. The Tower of Zot's still a bit of a rude one, though; not as bad as Holminster, but still not very nice.

I do still think that jacking up starting job levels beyond 50 was a mistake for this reason; after a point I want to assume that someone knows how to play their job, and I don't know exactly where that point is, but I feel like jobs are definitely starting past it at this stage.

Just finished 6.4 and I have some feedback about the end of the patch's MSQ.

Azdaja was corrupted by Void energy, I imagine that gave her a power boost, but she still had her aether depleted for thousands of years and hasn't fought for that duration either. Vrtra didn't suffer from either of those disadvantages yet she still took him down so quickly. That fight should have been closer. That's minor though.

After the fight against Golbez-D he says "you won the battle". It didn't feel like that at all. We're on the Thirteenth, he can't die, I get that. But he doesn't even flinch from any wounds, not even for a moment. Just floats up and does his bad guy stuff as if nothing happened, while we all stand/lie there. The Warrior of Light, a veteran of countless battles, just watches. Same for Zero who has the ability to seal voidsent. Perhaps it wouldn't have worked, but she doesn't even try to attack. Azdaja floats there while Golbez gloats, but even if he's too wounded to fight, Vrtra doesn't even try either. Only after Azdaja gets turned into a voidsent does one person attack, Zero, while the rest of us are still watching and in the WoL's case, gnashing our teeth.

The story itself is fine, but the way it's executed at the end leaves much to be desired. I don't mind that we couldn't save Azdaja (yet) and that she transformed into a voidsent, but we should have at least attempted to stop it.

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Originally Posted by Darko

Just finished 6.4 and I have some feedback about the end of the patch's MSQ.

Azdaja was corrupted by Void energy, I imagine that gave her a power boost, but she still had her aether depleted for thousands of years and hasn't fought for that duration either. Vrtra didn't suffer from either of those disadvantages yet she still took him down so quickly. That fight should have been closer. That's minor though.

After the fight against Golbez-D he says "you won the battle". It didn't feel like that at all. We're on the Thirteenth, he can't die, I get that. But he doesn't even flinch from any wounds, not even for a moment. Just floats up and does his bad guy stuff as if nothing happened, while we all stand/lie there. The Warrior of Light, a veteran of countless battles, just watches. Same for Zero who has the ability to seal voidsent. Perhaps it wouldn't have worked, but she doesn't even try to attack. Azdaja floats there while Golbez gloats, but even if he's too wounded to fight, Vrtra doesn't even try either. Only after Azdaja gets turned into a voidsent does one person attack, Zero, while the rest of us are still watching and in the WoL's case, gnashing our teeth.

The story itself is fine, but the way it's executed at the end leaves much to be desired. I don't mind that we couldn't save Azdaja (yet) and that she transformed into a voidsent, but we should have at least attempted to stop it.

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As I said in another thread the devs tend to lean towards the magical girl transformation/attack speed when it comes to dialog and action. Where we are given a lotof dialogue that seems like it's taking a longer time than it probably is. Zero, Estinien, and Y'shtola all had been distracted by lesser voidsent. Zero probably was memoria crystaling the lesser off screen. Vrtra I don't think has been using let alone fighting often in his dragon form once he set up the Satrap disguise.

Somehow Further Hildibrand Adventures

Godbrand, the ancestor of the Mandervilles, was a man (willingly) possessed by a parasitic / symbiotic alien from a species known as the Mandervillians, who crashed on Etheirys fleeing the Final Days; this is why the Mandervilles are possessed of superhuman power.

... maybe. Godbert raises some doubt about the family line, but doesn't elaborate before things move on.

I used to enjoy doing the Hildibrand quests, but these just don't feel as inspired. Still funny, but I'd rather skip the cutscenes getting to the Manderville Weapon and then rewatch them in the Inn.

About Manderville

Joke wise that was probably the weakest one for me. Reusing certain scenes just made it less funny for me and I was a bit annoyed that it was now the third time that our character stood there, not doing anything while everyone else tried to save us from the beam...just jump out of the way...Not sure if I like that running gag. At least the ending of that scene was great.

The revelation of the manderville origin left me with mixed feelings. Not sure if we really needed any explanation on their strenght and endurance. Still some of those scenes had me laughing so I just roll with it.

Curious how it will end.

I took the "revelation" from the Hildibrand quests as one of those things that really didn't need to be explained and came across more as a very forced attempt to make more elements from the MSQ relevant to the series.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I took the "revelation" from the Hildibrand quests as one of those things that really didn't need to be explained and came across more as a very forced attempt to make more elements from the MSQ relevant to the series.

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I think it's just a setup for a comedic bait and switch later in last quests of Hildibrand storyline, as Godbert's dialogue implies that.

kind of disappointed in the choice of topic for mount rokkon to focus on but i guess i'll take what little i can get out of it.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I took the "revelation" from the Hildibrand quests as one of those things that really didn't need to be explained and came across more as a very forced attempt to make more elements from the MSQ relevant to the series.

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Which isn't a good thing in my opinion.

The Mandervilles' existence, antics, and levels of OP require a healthy dose of 'suspension of disbelief' because they actually create a bit of a problem for the overall story otherwise.

Seriously - there shouldn't be a point where you start wondering why the heroes don't just send Godbert to fight Golbez and Zeromus since it's clear that he could one-shot both of them. :rolleyes:

Hildibrand

The punchline to the "Mandervilles are descended from aliens" bit is that Delion, alien conspiracy theorist extraordinaire, is completely unfazed by this. You'd think he'd go into a rant, but instead he just says something to the effect of "Figures." and moves on.

But yes, between Godbert's idle musings and Nashu pointing out the bit doesn't explain Julyan, it's implied the "explanation" is being set up as a punchline in the last quest. Something something Godbert was adopted, or whatever.

I don't mind MSQ Lore supporting Hildibrand, because he's so over the top it's impossible to backport much of the latter into the former. About the only thing from Hildibrand they've actually used in the MSQ is Godbert (albeit acting in a much more subdued manner) and Hancock referencing the Heavensward questline ("Stealer of Pants").

Nashu playing basketball with a coblyn, bricking, and then the PC dunking said coblyn into Lugae was definitely the highlight. Coming up with the hasty excuse of "I have an Orchestrion addiction. Spent my last gil on Return to Oblivion," the city guards thanking Hildibrand for using his stupidity and poor judge of character to sus out a shady merchant, and Brandihild's obsession with the low-poly Labyrinthos grapes were all very funny as well.

While others have mixed feelings about the recent Hildibrand quests' revelation, specifically for tying up EW MSQ lore with the Manderville. I myself think it's something great that everything is connected to each other.

Comic relief and comedy shenanigans are great, but having lore to support you is what makes you stand out from cartoon where stuff doesn't make sense and aren't made to make sense.

I want comedy that makes sense, something I can say: "Yes it happened because XYZ" and not "It happened for the sake of happening without any reason."

I only wish that said revelation made it out in ShB to tease EW and its lore, rather than wait until it happened. Although it still has implications, such as not all planets, worlds, and civilizations of the universe have destroyed themselves, but instead, they were destroyed by Meteion who didn't manage to find them and was drawn to despair as a result.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

While others have mixed feelings about the recent Hildibrand quests' revelation, specifically for tying up EW MSQ lore with the Manderville. I myself think it's something great that everything is connected to each other.

Comic relief and comedy shenanigans are great, but having lore to support you is what makes you stand out from cartoon where stuff doesn't make sense and aren't made to make sense.

I want comedy that makes sense, something I can say: "Yes it happened because XYZ" and not "It happened for the sake of happening without any reason."

I only wish that said revelation made it out in ShB to tease EW and its lore, rather than wait until it happened. Although it still has implications, such as not all planets, worlds, and civilizations of the universe have destroyed themselves, but instead, they were destroyed by Meteion who didn't manage to find them and was drawn to despair as a result.

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It's interesting that PuPu's reaction as Godbert speculates about the Final Days leads to the conclusion that he and his friend might be the sole survivors of his race.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Which isn't a good thing in my opinion.

The Mandervilles' existence, antics, and levels of OP require a healthy dose of 'suspension of disbelief' because they actually create a bit of a problem for the overall story otherwise.

Seriously - there shouldn't be a point where you start wondering why the heroes don't just send Godbert to fight Golbez and Zeromus since it's clear that he could one-shot both of them. :rolleyes:

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I don't know about you, but I don't want Godbert to have any more positive a reputation than he already has. Don't make him a savior, that'll just lead to people giving him more power, and he's a Monetarist!

I'm also reading this part as basically a parody of the game's own loredumps, so from that respect I feel like I'm not too surprised that it's not massively popular here; it's basically making a joke about the thing we're here for. It's damn close to joking about the 'everything is tied to the new shiny thing we learned about recently' theories you see here from time to time, in fact, all it'd need is a mention of dynamis. Personally, I think it could've used a slow piano and strings rendition of the Hildibrand theme to really add to it, joke about the rest of the presentation of those kinds of scenes.

That recurring coblyn is absolutely the other Mandervillian, though. We're not talking about that because we all know that's where we're going, right?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

That recurring coblyn is absolutely the other Mandervillian, though. We're not talking about that because we all know that's where we're going, right?

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That's a fair point....

It does seem strangely unfazed by everything going on around it and I did find the creature silhouette that the Mandervillian's had strangely coblyn-esque...

I was, regrettably, several patches behind on Hildibrand stuff, mostly due to lack of time.

So, first we got Hinata's view from the top straight out of Haikyu!!, then Gouenji's Fire Tornado from Inazuma Eleven, and then I'm actually not sure if this latest is supposed to be Kuroko's Basketball or Slam Dunk, honestly, because I'm not that good with basketball series. Regardless, I, specifically me, rather enjoy seeing my WoL imitating the sports shounen greats (especially in rewatchable cutscene form), but I never thought Hildibrand would pander to me that hard. I can only suppose baseball will be next, possibly Ace of Diamond or Big Windup, but there are a lot of baseball options to choose from.

Not sure how I feel about the alien reveal, but there's definitely a punchline being set up, so I'm not too worried about long-term implications. Hildy's misadventures have always poked fun at the main story in some way, so it feels like a nod to how many answers we got in Endwalker that basically came out of nowhere.

Now back to grinding out my third stack of 1500 tomes this week! T^T

I liked the origin reveal, personally. And the presentation itself was funny. Hearing the wood clinking around after Godbrand dropped off screen and realizing that meant he had props gave me a lot of amusement.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I liked the origin reveal, personally. And the presentation itself was funny. Hearing the wood clinking around after Godbrand dropped off screen and realizing that meant he had props gave me a lot of amusement.

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I'm just disappointed that no one had popcorn or some other snack. My take was all so they're Jenova? Even though the mini them looked more Lavos.

I just know I want some sports related emotes already with how many sports things we've been doing in Hildibrand and outside of it recently. Godbert has also been a fairly busy man this patch. He was the focus of Make it Rain where we got a FF VII reference with a Mt. Corel name drop. Him being one of the more recent backers of the Blue Mage carnival. Ontop of the Hildibrand stuff.

I know the silhouettes aren't exactly the same, but a part of me hopes that the wandering Coblyn turns out to be a long lost ancestor.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Make it Rain where we got a FF VII reference with a Mt. Corel name drop.

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The fake mountain in Round Square has always been referred to as Mt Corel.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The fake mountain in Round Square has always been referred to as Mt Corel.

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I know that, but he made a statement of having spent time at a Mt. Corel when he was younger.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I'm just disappointed that no one had popcorn or some other snack. My take was all so they're Jenova? Even though the mini them looked more Lavos.

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Like, good guy Jenova/Lavos, I guess? .... Weirdest timeline, but there you have it. lol

I wonder how much of the altruism that has been instilled in their family is a direct result of how kind the original, hyuran Godbrand (Highlander's name or the symbiote's?) was to the Mandervillian. It seems like its probably the whole origin of their focus on being "gentlemanly". Cus that highlander really was one when it counted.

On pretty small 6.45 stuff, an interesting, very minor detail from one of my favorite places to find lore: fish descriptions! This is the description of Forgiven Melancholy, one of the fish needed for upgrading the fishing relic tool:

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Whether this entity is an albino fish or a sin eater masquerading as one has long been a matter of debate among Crystarium naturalists. Recent testimony from former inhabitants of the Derelicts, however, may at last tip the scales─evidently, the creature tastes uncannily similar to meol.

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So... yeeeeeah, these are definitely sin eater fish.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So... yeeeeeah, these are definitely sin eater fish.

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Well... all other sorts of creatures got turned, so it makes more sense that there are sin eater fish than not.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Well... all other sorts of creatures got turned, so it makes more sense that there are sin eater fish than not.

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Yeah, this is less 'new revelation' and more 'confirmation of what we could have reasonably assumed'. The fact that we hadn't seen sin eater fish up until this point was hardly evidence sin eater fish didn't exist, just that we hadn't seen them. And similarly, them introducing sin eater fish as late as 6.45 is pretty confident proof that sin eaters are hardly extinct after the events of Shadowbringers, and the fact we have to catch 40 of 'em for a prototype of a fishing rod intended to see mass production suggests they are not exactly in short supply. I know neither of these are exactly huge or unintuitive revelations, but I know there's people who staunchly refuse to believe that points A, B and C could possibly lead to point D until the game explicitly states otherwise, so here's pretty solid evidence for those people that Sin Eaters are still a present factor post-5.0, and so the ShB role quests aren't being time-bubbled or anything, which I see suggested every so often.

For what it's worth, the only other particularly worldbuilding-y fish description is one that describes a Kholusian legend that, from the way it's written, definitely feels like it's referencing a real-world story that I can't think of right now. Anther one mentions the Nabaath Araeng royal family, but not in a way that gives us any information about them.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So... yeeeeeah, these are definitely sin eater fish.

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I needed a few seconds to remember what meol was. Now I want to unremember.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I needed a few seconds to remember what meol was. Now I want to unremember.

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I can never forget that it's literally the Soylent Green of ShB and Eulmore...

If you have time, I suggest talk to Cyella back on the First (if you finished the Shadowbringer Job storyline). She will talk about her past and how she use to be a Memorite herself.

Unukalhai sadly has no dialogue about current events in the 13th Shard.

As far as I'm aware her dialogue hasn't actually changed since 6.2.

It's going to feel very awkward to be doing all this business on the First without her or Unkhalkai getting involved due to obvious side quest issues.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

As far as I'm aware her dialogue hasn't actually changed since 6.2.

It's going to feel very awkward to be doing all this business on the First without her or Unkhalkai getting involved due to obvious side quest issues.

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It is a bit sad they got so little involvement in this plot considering they are both from that place and would have probably provided a lot of needed information for the WoL and Scions. Though I will not be surprised if they add a new quest for them once the 13th Shard Arc is over to fully conclude the 13th shard being eventually repaired storyline they are involved in.

My guess is there will be some extra quests if you have done both the Eden and ShB role quests to wrap up the void storyline after 6.5 or 6.55 just to tie up everything nicely.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

My guess is there will be some extra quests if you have done both the Eden and ShB role quests to wrap up the void storyline after 6.5 or 6.55 just to tie up everything nicely.

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well at this point it should be easy to get the current quest done if there is a new quest for Unkhalkai and Cyella plot later.

I personally just solo the extreme modes for Unkhalkai quests using Blue Mage Unsync. Fortunately we do not need to do the Extreme Triple Triad extreme fights, just unlock them but Extreme Bismark and Ravana needs to have their fight done.