Tales from the Dawn #4: "A Question of Death" (Jullus)

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

You need a source on the majority of Garlean troops being non-pureblood Garleans? I..have, have you ever played Final Fantasy XIV?

At this point it's pretty apparent you are being intentionally obtuse. I clearly stated the Garleans rely more on their conscripts than magitek gear due to the limited number of purebloods around. Nowhere did I mention magitek having less value or being less in power. In fact, I specifically note the sheer power of magitek in the post. Do try again.

But if you want a source? Almost every encounter with rank and file Garlean troops in the game.

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Never said there were more purebloods. But the more powerful magitek that the Garleans use is many more times powerful than numbers of troops, and magitek is why the began winning in the first place. Especially in a world where no nation except Dravania has any sort of counter to it. Airships are so important that their not being able to make it to a location without a ceruleum pit stop became a plot point. The in-universe name for magitek is explained as signifying technology supplanting magic. The whole point of the Garlean Empire is that through technology, they have become nearly unstoppable by any nation.

What are soldiers on the ground supposed to do against the juggernauts, gunships, and capital ships raining hell from high in the sky out of reach of useless arrows and fireballs? I'm still not sure how encountering rank and file Garlean troops in the game means that they're more reliant on them than all of the magitek that got them there, constructed the bases and their equipment, leads the charge, and blasts everything from high in the sky.

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Originally Posted by SilverArrow20XX

That family photo to me seemingly confirms that Titus is indeed the uncle that died during the war of succession whose coffin Varis spit on.
There are no other uncles in the full family photo after all.

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Wasn't the coffin Solus', after his death? The entire context of that scene is learning that Solus is dead and Varis took the throne. And we all know Varis absolutely had that sort of non-relationship with Solus.

In fact, last we heard of Titus was that he was still alive circa... I think Stormblood. He was mentioned off-hand in one of the political meetings. There was that one topic about a month ago from someone dead-ass certain that he was going to suddenly become relevant again, specifically because we never heard about his death.

I am rather curious what is going on with the other legions, given the mention of rumors that some of the Garlean-governed provinces were pushing towards independence and that they hadn't made any moves towards restoring the empire.

Their behavior at the start of the civil war did seem to suggest they already had such plans in mind, as the majority of them seemed to want to have nothing to do with the capital.

I think that we're going to see a lot more splintered factions like the IVth, amidst political infighting. I'd be curious to know who the current residents of Locus Amoenius are, though, along with a bit more backstory on the Unyielding Blade.

It was interesting to see someone learn about the aetheric sea and see it as a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Wasn't the coffin Solus', after his death? The entire context of that scene is learning that Solus is dead and Varis took the throne. And we all know Varis absolutely had that sort of non-relationship with Solus.

In fact, last we heard of Titus was that he was still alive circa... I think Stormblood. He was mentioned off-hand in one of the political meetings. There was that one topic about a month ago from someone dead-ass certain that he was going to suddenly become relevant again, specifically because we never heard about his death.

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That's what I thought when I originally saw the scene too.

The Encyclopedia confirms it was Titus that Varis fought for the throne. (By saying it was the second son)
I had assumed he had killed said uncle, and it'd be weird for Solus's coffin to still be on display if there's been enough time for that entire dispute to happen.

Though the uncle being killed was just an assumption it seems, so it must have been Solus's.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Never said there were more purebloods. But the more powerful magitek that the Garleans use is many more times powerful than numbers of troops, and magitek is why the began winning in the first place. Especially in a world where no nation except Dravania has any sort of counter to it. Airships are so important that their not being able to make it to a location without a ceruleum pit stop became a plot point. The in-universe name for magitek is explained as signifying technology supplanting magic. The whole point of the Garlean Empire is that through technology, they have become nearly unstoppable by any nation.

What are soldiers on the ground supposed to do against the juggernauts, gunships, and capital ships raining hell from high in the sky out of reach of useless arrows and fireballs? I'm still not sure how encountering rank and file Garlean troops in the game means that they're more reliant on them than all of the magitek that got them there, constructed the bases and their equipment, leads the charge, and blasts everything from high in the sky.

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You are still refuting points that were never made. To reiterate; nowhere in this entire thread have I or anyone else insinuated a lack of importance of Garlemald's airships and/or other warmachina.

My assertion is that Garlean purebloods made up a minority of their own empire's population and therefore made extensive use of conscripts and enlistees from other cultures in their military. These individuals are generally shown to lack magitek, instead relying on their own innate abilities. We are occasionally shown a non-pureblood with specialized equipment, but these people are usually of higher rank or unusually skilled. The acquisition of troops of other cultures reduced the need for purebloods to strap on their magitek booties and march to the frontlines. I might also point out how important the Garlean third eye is when operating many of their magitek creations, something non-Garleans distinctly lack.

The above aside, I would contest that you are gravely underselling the importance of ground troops. The Garlean Empire doesn't just go into most places with guns blazing and flatten it with their magitek. It is far more beneficial for them to favor a more strategic approach. Scorched earth was never stated to be off the table, but it's not exactly their go-to policy when invading. They're after resources, people, and annual financial tribute, and all of those things become far more difficult to obtain if you've turned a place to glass. ...Not that they even have an empire anymore.

I'm not sure if the fact that the Garleans used conscripts for thier enormous war that spans multiple continents proves that pureblood Garleans were "nearly extinct" because of war and persecution by other nations.

All we know that is Garlemald as a climate has a realitively low carrying capacity, and Garleans were relatively few in number until the magitech revolution made it possible to build a modern metropolis in the snow.

The harsh climate already adequately explains thier population without having to invent centuries of persecution and victimization by other nations.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Stuff

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Kindly read the assertions again. There is no implication of modern day Garleans being on the verge of extinction. In fact, the opposite is stated.

As for the rest? If you want to disregard the multiple sources provided in this very thread on the subjects of Garlean history and resources, carry on.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I'm not sure if the fact that the Garleans used conscripts for thier enormous war that spans multiple continents proves that pureblood Garleans were "nearly extinct" because of war and persecution by other nations.

All we know that is Garlemald as a climate has a realitively low carrying capacity, and Garleans were relatively few in number until the magitech revolution made it possible to build a modern metropolis in the snow.

The harsh climate already adequately explains thier population without having to invent centuries of persecution and victimization by other nations.

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Also, at their peak the Garlean Empire had all of Ilsabard, most of Othard and Ala Mhigo under their control. That's a lot of countries, and given the Empire's spread only lasted like 70-ish years tops (the first invasions were in 1515, Seventh Calamity in 1572, nebulously 5+ years after that to Endwalker), the Garlean people didn't have a huge chance to proliferate into the lands they were now able to occupy.

At the scale the Empire was at, in the time they had to get there, it would've been really hard (and probably fairly morally terrible) for them to not be the minority population in their own greater empire.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Kindly read the assertions again. There is no implication of modern day Garleans being on the verge of extinction. In fact, the opposite is stated.

As for the rest? If you want to disregard the multiple sources provided in this very thread on the subjects of Garlean history and resources, carry on.

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I have read all the sources you are talking about - I have been citing them explicitly.

The following facts are not in dispute: The people who became the Garleans were displaced from thier original homes and fled to Garlemald, Garlemald is a inhospitable climate that does not support a high population, early on in the history of the Garlean Republic, they were subject to attacks by nomadic raiders until they were able to repel them with the help of mercenaries, the Garlean Republic existed for over 500 years as a minor nation in the region, the Garlean Republic had a standing military and was involved in some kind of conflict that Solus was able to turn in the Garlean's favor with magitech.

What is not confirmed is the assertion that Garlemald were in a state of constant warfare with other nations, or were being continually persecuted by them. The above facts do not actually add up to that assertion being true.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, at their peak the Garlean Empire had all of Ilsabard, most of Othard and Ala Mhigo under their control. That's a lot of countries, and given the Empire's spread only lasted like 70-ish years tops (the first invasions were in 1515, Seventh Calamity in 1572, nebulously 5+ years after that to Endwalker), the Garlean people didn't have a huge chance to proliferate into the lands they were now able to occupy.

At the scale the Empire was at, in the time they had to get there, it would've been really hard (and probably fairly morally terrible) for them to not be the minority population in their own greater empire.

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The EE tells us Garleans made up roughly 70% of the population of their capital during the time of the empire. In-game text informs us the majority of Garleans tend to simply stay there, meaning that 70% represents the lion's share of their population. There are some determinations we cannot make without exact figures, but it seems like a rather fair assumption their numbers were quite small compared to most sapient races on Etheirys.

Not sure where the idea of Garleans being some kind of critically endangered species in the current age came from, but they aren't... Well, they weren't. I don't believe we have any sort of confirmation as to their population levels post-EW.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

What is not confirmed is the assertion that Garlemald were in a state of constant warfare with other nations, or were being continually persecuted by them. The above facts do not actually add up to that assertion being true.

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Then we have a fundamental disagreement. We are both in part making conclusions based on whether or not Drusilla's comment about fighting tooth and nail refers to literal fighting. Having read through the quest text in multiple languages to see how it's been addressed, I firmly believe it is. You believe it is not.

Though, I will note I don't necessarily believe their republic was in constant conflict with other nations. It would have been destroyed in protracted open warfare with its neighbor nations if it did anything other than falling back so far into its ungodly hostile environment nobody would follow. Espionage was more their thing on the national front. Now raids by smaller groups, on the other hand.... Well, it's mighty difficult to defend settlements from people that can drop small meteors on you when all you have are swords, bows, and some pointy sticks.

Of course, one needn't be subjected to literal 24/7 attacks by other nations to be kept in a severely disadvantageous position by them.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Then we have a fundamental disagreement. We are both in part making conclusions based on whether or not Drusilla's comment about fighting tooth and nail refers to literal fighting. Having read through the quest text in multiple languages to see how it's been addressed, I firmly believe it is. You believe it is not.

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If another language has a line that directly cites a war or conflict that the Garlean Republic was involved in, I would love to see it.

But at least in English that line could just as equally refer to fighting off nomadic raiders, or simply trying to eke out an existance in a harsh enviroment. It can't really be taken as evidence of any particular conflict.

Well, this thread started out nice for all of 3 pages before the usual things happened. I guess that's a record.

Touching story, nice to see more about the Galvus family tree.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

Well, this thread started out nice for all of 3 pages before the usual things happened. I guess that's a record.

Touching story, nice to see more about the Galvus family tree.

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Insert professor hulk meme here. (no idea how to link on a ps4.)

I'm rather hoping that they do one of these 'Tales from the Dawn' with a focus on Zenos.

There is quite a bit they could elaborate upon with him, and frankly I'd love to read of his journey to Sharlayan and how his conversation with Krile initially went (since it's almost a given that he wouldn't have been well received) and just what he said that convinced Krile and the others to trust him and cooperate.