It is perfectly possible to enjoy a game while not having faith in a dev team to deliver on things. There are things the Dev team is great at delivering on, though those mostly amount to visual things and music. Then there is a mountain of things that the Dev team has proven time and time again that they will never get something right even after the third try, even if the first iteration is fun. Take PvP. It has been revamped countless times and is for the first time in an amazing place, but even still while I enjoy it I can definitely agree there are countless glaring errors present that shouldn't have made it live. PotD, very well done and very workable right out of the gate. It was one of the very very few new content types that they got right on the first try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur
Now let's look at Diadem... poor poor Diadem. The zone that has been remade so many times that it was just turned into a gathering zone and tossed to the side. Nor were the lessons properly learned there as they went into Eureka, making it to Pyros before they seemed to have gotten something good. Even now with Bozja, they've continue to improve on the idea but there are still issues that they have not acknowledged and this content type has been in the game since HW. Healers are another good example, they've been waiting years to be properly fixed and it still hasn't been done. LD has needed a fix since it launched in HW and DRKs only just got a fix for it.
So it is perfectly possible to enjoy a game, but still not trust that the dev team will make changes properly or even in a timely fashion. Nor does not trusting them to do that take away from all the great things they have done. It's just a fact, these supposed UI changes should be taken with a massive grain of salt and not expect to see them for quite some time.
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05-19-2022, 11:06 PMVrankyl
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05-19-2022, 11:08 PMBobby66I have read the reasoning still does not make sense to me, the intent behind the tools does not negate the fact that a rule was broken. Sure accessibility tools for FFXIV are limited as an example but it is a binary situation. Break a rule someone reports you, you will most likely be punished. The reason for why one broke the rule is moot tbh. One can still advocate for change in the rules without getting upset at those that did the mass reporting or trying to play a victim card for getting reported in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway
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05-19-2022, 11:23 PMSwingLifeAwayBecause the rule is not being enforced according to the foundational reason behind its existence. It is being abused and weaponized, which SE allowed and sanctioned by handing out the bans. I do not think it is unreasonable for people to be frustrated when a rule is not enforced for its foundational purpose and instead used to target people who have not harmed any other player, and it is certainly more than reasonable for people to criticize it and call it out. Now if only people didn't try and derail the thread with waste of time arguments like "who cares it's against the rules" which offer absolutely nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby66
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05-19-2022, 11:49 PMBobby66If it went against the foundational reasoning then the GM team would not have punished them. At the core ot has always been they cannot punish what they do not do not know. People making their rule breaks public is what fostered this weaponized apporch.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway
You may not like the argument but being against the rules is a valid argument. So if change wants to happen we should focus on why such tools were created, and less about how it is unfair to get punished for breaking such rules. -
05-20-2022, 12:24 AMSaraideI'm sorry do you consider the GMs as infallible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby66
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05-20-2022, 12:27 AMSemirhageThe argument against parsers is a Motte and Bailey argument. People defending it will swear up and down that it's about harassment, until they come across a stream where nobody is harassing anybody. Then they'll gleefully report, and retreat to the Motte, "because it's against the rules!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby66
Now, Square is perfectly within their rights to forbid something because they don't support it and don't want to he liable for it. It's an *annoying* position given their refusal to implement a lot of the pretty basic QOL plugins provide, but it's their prerogative.
But that's not the argument the anti-parser Inquisitors trot out every single time. It's because such tools create an atmosphere of harassment you see. So why mass report someone who isn't harassing someone? Shutup, it's against the rules! Round and round we go...
I agree, parsers do evidently cause harassment. Anti-parser zealots harass anyone they suspect of using one, with the full blessing of the TOS. Seems to me like harassment isn't their actual target. It's just the parsers. The objects, not the behavior. They're book burners hiding behind excuses. -
05-20-2022, 01:11 AMBobby66We have always known the real reason behind anti parsing is the desire to not want to take accountable for ones play. It has always been that at the core, arguments around harassment have always been cherry picked and based around anecdotal accounts. The thing that differs in this situation, while unfair and messed up at the core a valid rule break can be found, this is also why I fall in the camp that SE should have never changed the ToS or started to enforce such actions using information outside of the game. Many called that this would be the product of such a change. We can be against it, but at the core a rule was broken, and they got punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Sure we can be fairly certain that something malicious is going on, but we have no way of proving it objectively unlike the issue with people using 3rd party tools while streaming. That can be proven objectively, so trying to argue the why is moot. What we should be doing is sending feedback to SE requesting certain features to be added. I get I use a 3rd party tool to add some must needed colorblind features. I know the risk, and I accept it. -
05-20-2022, 03:30 AMSemirhage
My renewed dislike for Yoshi's stance on parsers mainly comes from the fact that the population that dislikes them has revealed themselves to be malicious, self-righteous busybodies, and now I'm just done with this ACT silent truce. The parsers were minding their own business. The toxic casual Karens were not. If the TOS should tell anyone to go sit in a corner and stop being moralizing Puritans, it's them.
Why on earth does the TOS prescribe punishment for streaming with a parser, but protect toxic casuals when THEY want to harass people they weren't even interacting with? Sounds like bad rules to me. -
05-20-2022, 08:24 AMEagleDynamicsyup. theyre just people who like to wag their fingers at other players. very petty. in the end it doesnt stop anyone from using act anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
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05-20-2022, 08:31 AMDamianFataleCounter counter point:Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Third party tools are unfair, and they lead to bullying. Hows that for your victimless crimes. -
05-20-2022, 08:42 AMAxxionhow does it lead to bulling?Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
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05-20-2022, 08:43 AMVirusOnlinecounter counter counter point:Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
i don't need third party tools to tell that ice mage his rotation is the equivalent of a plastic enclosure that holds undesirable objects -
05-20-2022, 11:52 AMSemirhageNo they don't. The only evidence FFXIV has provided us is that people who complain endlessly about parsers are thin-skinned and spend their days inventing evil parsing strawmen in their minds to point at as "examples" of bullying.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
Harassment. Is. Already. Against. The. TOS.
Unless a toxic casual does it, JK. -
05-20-2022, 12:07 PManhaatoCounter counter counter point: grayQuote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
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05-20-2022, 12:10 PMMyranyNo you are not JK. You have been on a "toxic casual" rant for pages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Some streamer was dumb enough to stream with his mods showing. Someone reported and he got busted for it. Predictable. The rule for years has been turn a blind eye until its brought to attention with prove they can verify. Not surprising the streamer paid the price.
Not all casuals are toxic. Not all casuals that want nothing to do with parsers are "bad players." I look up my rotations. I wear the best gear I can get at the time (usually crafted because I am often 10 levels above where I am in the MSQ so cant get appropriate tomestone gear). I give 100% effort in any group content I do.
I simply refuse to have anything to do with parsers. I do not want to see one or have anyone else see my parses. I used a parser for years in another game. It absolutely ruined the game for me. I stressed so much if I made the smallest mistake that led me too be even a tiny bit below my optimal. I am done with min/maxing to that level.
I do MSQ group content. I want to do every raid at the minimal level and no more. I stay in my lane. So if they were to put a parser in I want to not see it and remove myself from being parsed as well. As I do not want to be pushed (and it would for me even if it is someone pointing out my parse on his meter) back into the min/max mentality that destroys MY fun.
Sorry I do not think that is toxic of me hence NOT a toxic casual
Edit: I know full well by this point someone has parsed me. They had the good sense to keep it to themselves so they didn't get busted. That leaves me the illusion of not being parsed. If a parser is in game then the motivation to keep it to themselves is gone and they will say something (even if it is not in a harassing way) and that would destroy things for me. -
05-20-2022, 12:14 PManhaato
Don't apply, let it fly. If you don't think you're a toxic casual then move along. But wtf is "I give 100% effort" followed by "I want to do everything at the minimal level" supposed to mean? Also, just because you don't want to be parsed doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to do it for their own self improvement. The world doesn't revolve around you.
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05-20-2022, 12:16 PMNizziQuote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
By looking up your rotation, you are having something to do with parsers lol -
05-20-2022, 12:20 PMMyranyI do everything to the best of my ability but have no intention of doing extremes or savage or ultimate. So minimal normal level is all I want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by anhaato
The world doesn't revolve around you either. So we will have to agree to disagree on who is allowed to see my data. -
05-20-2022, 12:21 PMLianaThorneIf you don't want to do the content, why engage in this thread? It clearly doesn't affect you or your playstyle. Your numbers are irrelevant outside of said content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
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05-20-2022, 12:22 PMMyranyAm I seeing MY parses or having them spewed back to me by someone else? No, therefore it does not set off the crap that ruins games for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
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05-20-2022, 12:26 PMMyranyBecause I am tired of all casuals being called bad or toxic when we are not. Because if you read what I actually wrote I am NOT saying don't put a parser in the game. I am saying allow people to opt entirely out of it if it is put in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by LianaThorne
Do you really want this to be an echo chamber of like minded people or an exchange of ideas? Because weather you like it or not a parser being put in the game will affect all players not just high end raiders. So where is the crime in a non-high end raider voice their opinion? -
05-20-2022, 12:27 PManhaato
And who are these totally not imaginary people publicly talking about parses in normal content? Besides, if people see your data but don't say anything about it, why do you care? Hell, even if someone does try to tell you your parse why do you care? Just say "didn't ask" or ignore them, it's not hard. The solution to not engaging with parsing is... not engaging with parsing, not trying to get parsers banned. I reiterate, the world doesn't revolve around you.
Edit: Ok, then say that to begin with for the love of god! -
05-20-2022, 12:28 PMRein_eon_OsborneThen the better of saying that is "I don't really have needs or desires to know and/or measure my own performance in detail."Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
The person you're replying is not wrong regarding all the recommended rotations were made by the assistance of parses. To know which rotation works best. To know where to slot in their cooldowns to maximize the gain from those limited window. To tell which gear stat builds works better for X or Y rotation. Parse are used to figure out all those questions. From this point of view, looking up those rotations then saying you have 100% nothing to do with parses doesn't makes sense.
Move along mate, have fun with your game. You are not a 'toxic casual'. You are a 'casual'. There's the difference between the two. -
05-20-2022, 12:29 PMShurrikhanThough potency per second spreadsheets suggest the best rotations, since tooltip potencies aren't always correct to in-practice damage or healing outputs (see, for instance, Stormblood-era Tornado Kick, which dealt ~30% more potency than was stated) and spreadsheet rotations don't necessarily include all the nuances of animation locks, the rotations you see in guides tend to have been proven out, ultimately, by parsers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
What we know about stats? Comes from parsers.
What we know about how animation locks precisely work or how to best deal with the game's netcode (even within default means)? Likewise comes from third party tools.
Escaping them altogether is probably not possible, but hey, we certainly can (and should) make that UI element itself able to be hidden.
This does sound like a failure to moderate yourself. I don't mean to poke fun at that, though; it fact it points out something vital: there are always going to be certain triggers, sour reminders, etc., possible from just how we happen to frame things. While I'm not one to argue for accommodating that in every sense (it's disruptive and generally not even possible), this is certainly one area that can and should be accomodated.Quote:
I do not want to see one or have anyone else see my parses. I used a parser for years in another game. It absolutely ruined the game for me. I stressed so much if I made the smallest mistake that led me too be even a tiny bit below my optimal. I am done with min/maxing to that level.
Tl;dr: Yeah, people who have been burned by a particular feature in the past should, where reasonable, have the option to hide that feature as not to experience its affected gameplay through that lens that would otherwise turn them off to it. In this case, that's pathetically easy and wholly sensible to accommodate, so it very much reasonable. The last thing this game needs is more UI elements arbitrarily unable to be hidden. -
05-20-2022, 12:32 PMRitsukoSonodaAs someone that has always played this game with no 3rd party addons or tools. I would be OK if they added a parser that only showed your own personal info. I however do not feel like the ones I see in screenshots and videos where it monitors the entire party have a place in this game as the parsing toxicity generally stems from someone looking at someone else's parse info either from usage of the tool in game at that time or from other people uploading parse data not belonging to their character without the player's consent onto 3rd party websites like FFLogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
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05-20-2022, 12:33 PMLianaThorneYou can voice your opinion all you want, just seems kind of pointless to me since you're not even a part of the community that is involved in it. They're not going to put a parser into the game, it's been stated already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
Side note, you must be new here if you think the forum isn't already a permanent echo chamber. -
05-20-2022, 12:39 PMMyrany
So many people decided to pick through my posts through a lens of me saying don't put a parser in the game. Y'all are WAY to trigger happy. I did NOT say that. I said if you do put it in the game I want to be able to opt entirely out of it. I don't see my parses and neither does anyone else.
As I have already said I KNOW how the optimal rotations and gearing come to be. Let me refer to the above paragraph and say again I did NOT say don't put a parser in the game. Just that if it is I want to opt entirely out of it with no one seeing my parses. -
05-20-2022, 12:49 PMShurrikhanI did misunderstand your take originally and have since edited my response. My apologies for the initial misconstruction of your arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
Edit: Also needed to correct a typo. -
05-20-2022, 01:02 PMMyranyTY I really appreciate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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05-20-2022, 01:11 PMShurrikhanYou're most welcome. I'm sorry for my part in letting things get heated enough that reading comprehension might melt in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
Hopefully letting things chill at least once per 3-to-10 pages may help things out.In my case, I'd run into a few people who seemed to be projecting their own, rather extreme uses of a given tool or medium onto everyone to assume that what options (or lack thereof) would work best for them would also work best for all.
I still don't know how I missed originally that you were insisting only on not taking away options in either direction. I swear I normally have at least a few more braincells at work. -
05-20-2022, 03:54 PMSemirhageHence the "toxic" in front of the word "casual".Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrany
You want to play in the gold saucer, do MSQ, glamour, and never care how well you're doing in a dungeon? Good for you. You're a casual.
You want to shriek about eeeeeeevil parsers used by mustache-twirling elitists who might be....reading your already publicly available numbers while *gasp* largely ignoring them and not saying anything about them? Or barge into a Twitch stream run by someone you've never met, who isn't on your server, who's neither seen nor spoken to you and likely never will, doing content you have zero interest in and yelling "YOSHI, YOSHI! He has a PARSER! BAN HIM!" like an obnoxious church lady? That's a toxic casual.
There's a difference. -
05-20-2022, 04:02 PMSwingLifeAway
If you get offended by the term "toxic casual" enough to make a forum rant about how not all casuals are toxic, then you are quite likely, a toxic casual.
#NotAllCasuals -
05-20-2022, 09:51 PMBobby66
Another issue is the game devs do foster this toxic causal mindset with their design choices. I understand that normal content should be able to be completed by a majority of players, but said content should not be able to be cleared with multiple players under performing. The reality is in FFXIV the standard of play that is view acceptable is clearing the fight. You could be dead on the floor the entire fight and the game will treat and weigh your into the same as other and thus count it is as a success.
Parsing at the core goes against this design choice. Induvial accountably when it comes to level of play is something SE has shown they do not want to foster in general community. Parsing will never been approved just due to this mindset alone. Putting aside the toxic issues and everything else. -
05-21-2022, 01:14 AMRokkuEkkusu
When people use those third-party add-ons and then somehow get banned, they shouldn't be surprised because they ultimately reaped what they sowed and now have to deal with the consequences.
At the end of the day, it's not a question of if a sudden ban happens when terms of service is broken, but when. -
05-21-2022, 01:19 AMSemirhageYep. Exactly. So instead, we have the process that's in vogue on the JP servers: silently disband, blacklist, be as passive-aggressive as you can because passive-aggression is seen as a virtue in FFXIV. Offering to assist someone? DON'T YOU DARE, HOW DID YOU KNOW THEY WERE UNDERPERFORMING, BAD!!1! Much better to snot something about the *party* being underperformers, and leave in a flounce. That's the TOS-respecting way to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby66
The former helpful approach? That happens in statics all the time. When you aren't forced to walk on eggshells around people because of a stifling TOS, you can actually learn and improve things. And who does the TOS force people to walk on eggshells around? Well, it prescribes punishment for calling out anyone for underperforming. Starts with a "T" and ends with an "oxic casuals".
This recent bit of drama is just something else. Before, You Don't Pay My Sub was the law of the land. Okay, you refuse to improve or seek out any information about improving and I can't make you, random stranger. Weird flex, but that's acceptably defined boundaries. Now it's "tools for improvement should be reported wherever they're seen, and the punishment doled out is justice served". Ah, you guys don't just not want knowledge, you want to destroy it in other people. You're zealous fanatics now. Got it. *sigh* okay, I'm done with these neurotics. I've had enough of the insane coddling for this neurosis codified into the TOS. -
05-21-2022, 01:23 AMKenkySorry to tell you this, but there is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Someone breaking the ToS (by parsing, ui mods, etc.) and keeping it to themselves
VS
Someone breaking the ToS (by parsing, ui mods, etc.) and publicly advertising that they're doing it.
You don't say a word about what you're doing? Shoot for the stars. You admit to doing naughty things or publicly showing you doing naughty things? You do not get to act like a victim when you are punished. You can go ahead and hide behind the "Obnoxious church lady" or "nosing in on other peoples business" as a defense, but Streamers willingly hit the Go Live button and advertise their show. Their business BY DESIGN is public-domain. If they don't like that, then they can go off-stream. Nobody forced them to hit the Go Live button.
You need to drop this defense. As much as your "toxic casuals" arguments. You fight for a Parser to be implemented into the game, then actively give SE reasons not to. You think insulting other people is going to get you what you want?
And before anyone decides to respond to me with anything along the lines of "Your fault you're insulted". No. To the Void with that. You're choosing to be a ne'er-do-well. Get treated like one. You want a Parser to be in the game? Prove you can be civil, instead of bear fangs at people against you. -
05-21-2022, 01:31 AMSemirhageMotte and Bailey yet again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenky
Who's being harmed by showing third party plugins on stream? Oh, it's nobody? It's nobody. Punishing people for having it visible on stream is a case of "it's bad because it's against the rules, and it's against the rules because it's bad". The moment the "against the TOS because harassment and incivility" argument becomes indefensible, you guys immediately retreat to "well it's against the rules anyway so it's bad just by itself".
You don't get it both ways. Is it bad because harassment potential, or bad because Square doesn't want to support it? People punished for streaming with plugins who aren't harassing people is what happened last week. And yet, all of the toxic casual arguments center around harassment. Until someone points out that's complete BS, and you flee to pointing at the TOS as if it's some unquestionable gospel that requires no justification.
I don't feel the need to be cutesy and hesitant and shy around Puritanical churchladies who think other people should be banned for reasons that have nothing to do with their obfuscating lies about harassment, when they actually think they should be banned because they hate knowledge and numbers. -
05-21-2022, 01:42 AMKenkyBreaking the ToS. Is punishable. Doesn't matter if it isn't "hurting anybody."Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
By playing the game, you agree to the Terms of Service. If you break the Terms, you get punished. That's the line in the Sand.
Whether you may see it being "BS" or not is entirely irrelevant, because You Agree to Comply when you start. If you dislike being punished for breaking the rules you sign to uphold, then go elsewhere. Whether it's actually unfair and outright stupid, it doesn't matter. SE enforces it.
SE has given people multiple outs, essentially boiling down to "Don't show you're doing it and we won't be forced to take action." The streamers showed they were doing it, forcing SEs hand. Yes, this is not 100% and it has holes, yes there are times when SE accepted modded pictures in their picture contests. Human error and all. But if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you cannot claim Innocence. Even the "use at your own risk" gives SE a defense that they don't catch all of them. While they are using that in the sense of "We don't know if this may be a virus or corrupt your files" it's also a "if you use this, you are at risk of being banned." Take. The damn. Hint.
Your constant bickering over the same topic when so many people have given you the answer that you seemingly choose to ignore is not on us. That's a -you- problem.
You don't like being punished for breaking the rules? Go play something else. You won't get away with it here. -
05-21-2022, 01:49 AMSemirhageSo you agree, it's against the rules because Square doesn't want to support third party plugins. Good, that's an acceptable, defensible position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenky
Harassment is ALREADY against the TOS. Claiming that parsers shouldn't be allowed because someone might be mean is *nonsense*. I'm not arguing for an official parser, because YoshiP has already stated multiple times he won't implement one, because he also holds this nonsense position about "harassment".
The fact that Square is talking about implementing QOL offered by plugins is a good thing. It's about time. A parser is quality of life. But we won't get one because this game's philosophy leans hard into protecting the delicate sensibilities of people who hate learning, hate improving, hate knowledge, and hate numbers. I think that's ridiculous, but Yoshi and I aren't going to see eye to eye there.
I do have to chuckle at "SE enforces it" though. No they don't. Bots are rampant. Speedhacks too. Yoshi watches streams with ACT overlays in front of his face, and he doesn't summon a GM for bans.
They only started this crap when toxic casuals pitched a fit about it and mass reported. And whether the TOS needs an update or not, obnoxious churchlady Karens wielding rules like a weapon is behavior I don't want encouraged. -
05-21-2022, 01:50 AMPaduduExcept.. people have, had, and will continue to "get away with it". Hell, you have Yoshi-P staring at ACT right in the face and he makes 0 peeps about it. They tell people, when making NSFW screenshots, to just "crop the copyright stuff in the screenshot" so they won't get sanctioned. Hell, if you read between the lines, it's basically "don't ask, don't tell" essentially, as they directly tell you they have no way of knowing you are running 3rd party programs if you don't stream it. You want some "in-your-face" breaking the rules? Go to Eureka, Diadem, or gathering nodes and count the number of bots, day after day after day. Or maybe the hackers/cheats in CC who continue to be unbanned and frolicking free to the chagrin of pvp regulars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenky
So, break the rules as long as no one's watching, and hell, even if they are watching, not like SE will do anything but the bare minimum. :P
These "dont break the tos" drones don't realize.. SE has been enforcing it willy-nilly, whenever they feel like it suits them.. so either strictly enforce the ToS, or don't, but don't become upset when they suddenly start passing out bans after years of virtual handwaving the issue and people start complaining about it after being "allowed" to all this time.