Healer complaint topic #255
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Healer complaint topic #255
Please read the actual arguments that healers are making before you respond.
We are not asking for increased DPS for healers.
We are asking for a more in-depth DPS system for healers.
In other words, more DPS BUTTONS for healers.
More DPS buttons =/= wanting to deal higher damage.
In all my time in the healer forums on here—which is a lot—I’ve rarely seen healers ask to deal more damage. That’s not the argument we are making. If anything, we always argued wanting to HEAL MORE, but the developers will not let us heal more because then new healers/baby healers would be “too stressed out”, and heaven forbid there’s any sort of “stress” involved with anything in this game.
We spend 80% of our time—if not more—in ALL FORMS OF CONTENT (read: not just Savage raids) dealing damage, so why not at least make it a bit more interesting than Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis 100+ times during a single encounter.
This is not to appease those nasty raiders.
This is for ALL HEALERS because even the NON-RAIDER HEALERS are getting bored spamming one button.
If anything, NON-RAIDER HEALERS have it worse than RAID HEALERS do because casual content is not even that demanding—to the point where CASUAL HEALERS don’t even use their entire kit. I can do entire pieces of content without touching things like Macrocosmos, Seraph, Pneuma, and Lilybell because the content simply does not ask for that much healing. Even Savage borders on that, since I use Pneuma maybe once or twice in any given fight—and sometimes it’s still an overheal.
I am beyond exhausted seeing these “not everyone wants Savage-level content”/“it’s not worth it to overhaul for the minority of players” arguments. They completely miss the point of what healers on here are even saying. And really, this goes for all roles. Asking for some kind of engagement or a little bit of complexity for a job/role does not equate to asking for ANYTHING to be Savage-levels of challenging. It’s not that black and white. You can have engagement and complexity somewhere between “drool on keyboard easy” and “finger gymnastics/concert pianist/Math Lady Meme hard”.
You could remove the slack additional healing power gives, but that will just make progs and struggle normal trial/raid runs more painful.
One man's overhealing is other's saving grace.
Or... you could remove some of our oGCD heals and replace them with some extra dps/support buttons so we
1. GCD heal more because part of the problem is that we never have to touch it because we have too many healing tools
2. Give us something to do when we're no longer healing
Non raider here. It's true.
Even in Shadowbringers I forgot Seraph (a level cap skill!) exist at one point because I barely even need it.
And now, Expedient another level cap skill that I often forget except when running from one boss to the next in Aglaia.\
I have to constantly remind myself these skills exist and I could use it.
I am not asking for random damage/RNG damage. All I said was that I’d prefer a more even balance of healing uptime and DPS uptime—something closer to 50/50. I’d even take 40/60 healing versus damage. Anything but 10/90 like it is now.
Personally, I don’t care about WoW encounters and how they are built. I played WoW for a day in 2007 and that was it. Was never my cup of tea, and I don’t think FFXIV needs to be just like it. I don’t know anything about its encounter designs, and I’m not talking about its encounter designs here.
You can have a more even healing-to-damage uptime ratio without adding in random outgoing damage that falls outside of the predictable/scripted nature of this game. It’s as simple as just adding in additional raidwides during a boss—or even just make them hit harder instead of barely tickling. As fun as Aglaia is, there are very few raidwides in those encounters. Even Savage doesn’t have as many as it could, and they don’t have to be random. They can be scripted/choreographed.
Crit auto attacks were also a decent way to keep healers on their toes back in SB, in my opinion. And they were actually random. They made healers need to pay attention to the tank versus virtually ignoring them. Especially when they happened after a tank just took a buster. Aaaaand the devs removed those because they were apparently “too stressful”.
I am well aware that the things I would like to see will not happen, so you don’t need to reiterate that for me. This isn’t my first rodeo here. I was merely expressing my wishes in response to someone asking if making GCD heals mandatory in content would provide the engagement healers are wanting. I think they need far more than “you gotta use your GCD heals now”. I don’t find being a GCD cure bot any more interesting than being a Glare Mage.
I also think that healers aren’t even so much of a resource to tanks and DPS. It’s my personal opinion that healers exist in parties because the Duty Finder dictates one (or two) need to be there. But they aren’t hardly as necessary as they should be—due to a variety of reasons. If it weren’t for standard comp rankings on FFLogs, I’m certain top groups would already have dropped the second healer for a fifth DPS. You barely need one a lot of the time—and you simply don’t need two.
But the skill expression and proper reaction times exist in the oGCD space. Like if you could manage all healing checks by spamming Succor, that would be pretty boring too.
And if you only had Cure 2 at your disposal when you are trying to desperately keep people taking spot damage when the next raid wide is already being cast, it would be too slow for the job.
Is more hard casting actually the solution?
At no point did I say to replace 1 button dps spam with cure/benefic/physick spam. I don't think you're understanding what I'm getting at.
I want to dip more into my GCD heals because that means my oGCD heals are actually a resource to manage now.
It is infinitely more fun for me to go in Orbonne Monestary and have nothing but ES, CU and CO and 1 charge of ED than my entire heal kit at 90 because the damage is more frequent and I can't just use the same oGCD for the same raid wide. I actually have to plan it out.
I don't want GCD healing to replace oGCD healing. I want more engagement when I heal by making my oGCDs more of a resource to manage (by limiting how many I have) than it is to simulate a better balance between doing DPS and healing.
You can also do this by adding in more dps buttons to press.
Others answered to your comment very well but I'd like to add something.
With my group, after the weeklies on Tuesday, we would go in Expert roulette with 1 tank and 3 DPS.
I was there as a DRK, before 6.1, we could clear every pack before I had a chance to die. Including the first 90 dungeon were gear is synchronized.
Healing as a healer is fun.
DPSing as a healer is not fun.
Indeed! Just like some of the DPS mains that are dissatisfied with changes to their jobs/the state of their jobs, healers are also dissatisfied with the state of theirs! Hence why we keep expressing this! :) The healer role leaves much to be desired from those that play it.
This may surprise you: but healers don’t need sockpuppets to support their distaste for the state of the role. The myriad of threads you’re complaining about are proof enough that we don’t need to fake likes. Imagine accusing someone of using fake accounts for support because one cannot fathom that healers are unhappy.
Correction: this goes beyond forum healers. Healers in-game are dissatisfied. I was just in a conversation about this in my server’s NN, and none of those people that were in the camp of “healers currently suck” post here. There are also conversations on platforms outside of this forum debating the state of healers. This isn’t contained to just the OF.
Megathreads have been a thing on the NA/EU forums before. They aren’t the norm like over in JP, but it seems like megathread or thread spamming, neither seem to get attention. That said, I don’t necessarily disagree with keeping everything condensed. However, if you want to call out healers for this, perhaps also call out the Housing enthusiasts, PvP players, and DPS mains for the same thing, since they also spam threads on the same topic. Don’t act like this is just a healer forum phenomenon.Quote:
But yeah I'm not saying they are not but can't we just have a megathread for that and not spamming the 1st page with the same old, dead-horse topics over and over again?
You try having your ROLE, yes ROLE, since every single healer is boring as hell screwed up for years.
Imagine every DPS being the exact same as one another. So sick of them not listening to us about Healers.
Again I say, WE DO NOT WANT TO SPAM 1 AND 2 FOREVER. UNDERSTAND PLEASE.
I'm legit at the point where they can rework and make us DPS with some heals (like PvP please)
ANYTHING so I can stop pressing the same 2 shit buttons man.
If they really are this focused on making the game DPS-centric, then they should make the dps rotation for healers more complex, anything is better than spamming 1.
Since we are seeing that the content can be optimized so you only need the ogcd heals, how about you remove the gcd heals and replace them with damage skills and spells? Something like how tank mitigation works, almost all of it is ogcd and you have an actual rotation, it's simpler than the DPS ones but it's something.
Why are the healers and only the healers treated like this?
I used your quote as context not to attack you. If my text gave you this feeling: Sorry, not my intention. So to clarify: I am on your side of the argument, mostly. My opinion differs on the point how we could achieve the healer changes.
I think rng damage will not change bad healer design. We are beyond this point. Healers need to be "green dps" or get a full rework. These are the options and the "rework" will not happen because we are not important enough for this investment, so i ask for the realistic solution: a dps rotation for healer.
The healers asked for: healer checks, crits on tanks, more use of the toolkit (esuna for example) but the answer was always -NO. The healer lost almost their identity completly and are now "OGCD" overheal monster without purpose besides DPS and Tanks need us to clear certain fights. We have a lot of Extreme and Savage fights that can be cleared with one healer or even without any healer.
Last but not least encounter design is important if we are talking about changing figths for healer. Look at the fights and how they are build and you will see not only got auto crits cut from fights, other parts changed too. And we need to take this in consideration before we ask for something we will regret later on.
SE need to look at the healers and must make a decision "how" they wanna build the healers. At the moment SE has no plan are idea for healers. For example WHM, the Lily change was necessary but every 20 second a Lily for what? WHM has no design besides "take Lilys" but for what, what is the purpose, the reason. Last week i played Savage, A1S, and i had a headache, my co healer did the healing alone without any problems. My group is not "top", not even close but more like "casual raider" and we did it without even flinching.
Because Yoshi-P nor the entire FF14 team ever played healer for longer than a day, which is why they're doing this. They thought it was too complex, now they're making it brain dead. Just remove the healer role entirely, or make them dps. Why need healers if tanks can heal themselves?
I’m not a healer main, I’d say secondary main? I’ve never begun a tier on scholar, but I usually gear it second. Anyway, I’ve been playing scholar in ex3 and it’s been a total blast. I’m not super hardcore, but always clear a tier before echo; currently curtain call prog, and my statics healers are like the opppsite of the forum healers - they love it and don’t complain about the minutae at all
I can provide links to multiple hundred post Reddit thread; Twitter replies all garnering hundreds of retweets, or the LL Twitch stream itself where players have complained directly at Yoshida regarding healers being boring if "forum healer" complaints aren't enough. Perhaps these threads are now flooding the General section because the devs aren't listening. We had a 300+ megathread for White Mage back in Stormblood. They ignored it. Dark Knights waited 6+ years and the introduction of a healer that literally couldn't heal Living Dead in dungeons without blowing its entire kit before they finally did something.
Funny enough, I don't see people complaining about the myriad of Samurai threads. I guess that's okay because they're a DPS. You know, the most neglected role in the game...
While there are healers that seem content with the poor state of the role now, that doesn’t mean this is a forum healer phenomenon. Please stop pretending that this is an issue only talked about here. You can find conversations on other platforms debating the state of healers just like you can find them debating the state of tanks and DPS. Flippant responses like this just add to the problem, in my opinion. Downplaying the issues with the role is just as bad as ignoring it.
I’ve seen players from veteran healers to people just picking up healers complain that the role is boring and the same for 90 levels; that it feels as if it doesn’t have any depth to it, which it really doesn’t. I feel like it becomes more obvious the longer you play the role, though. Players that have never healed in FFXIV likely won’t pick up on just how little healing is actually done until they become more comfortable with the job and the toolkit.
I’ve played healers for over six years. This was the second Savage tier I’ve cleared as a healer since I’m normally a physical ranged (the first being Eden’s Verse), and I didn’t really feel all that challenged outside of early prog for late in P3S and in P4S. But once my co-healer and I figured out our healing formula for things like tornadoes and Curtain Call, it was no longer difficult. It was routine. And we both spam our damage button more than we do any sort of healing. I wouldn’t say I have a blast on it—I would call my play on healers “mindless”.
I’m hoping DSR will actually give me some excitement. Healing UCoB was alright, I guess. I played it super safe, but still spent more casts on damage than I did healing overall. Just sucks that I have to find my engagement in the 1 or 2 fights raiders are lucky to get every expansion, or in clown fiesta 24-mans. Versus when I play a DPS I can at least feel engaged even in casual content because I have a rotation to focus on. Healers don’t have that. We don’t even have all that much healing to focus on…
Because people want to be lazy and unengaged with the content. Even my friend follows the same idea -- the least they have to do, the better, which is why we see so many people say "if you want to dps, go dps" and healers who follow Yoshi-P's words of "healers should just heal".
For anyone out there that wants to keep 1 button spamming, adding a more engaging DPS rotation for the rest of us doesn't take away your ability to ignore those other actions, leave them off your hotbar, and continue spamming Broil. Shocking news: you have control over your own gameplay, and if you want to play lazy, that's your choice. Just look at Bootshine/Dragon Kick spam monk...
Because there's a hidden issue people forget about, and that is console players. MMORPGs are never made to be played on a console, unless they can actually pull it off correctly (like TERA did, and worked well). Since people have to shuffle between buttons so much, the reality of the matter is the homogenization of all jobs, not just healers. As we move further into more expansions, more skills will be added, and many more sacrificed, leading to simple 1 button mash in the long run.
I’m not in favor of adding DPS tools to healer but I’m in favor of turning the damage up by 200% to actually make the healing relevant.
If healers got say, a soft caster rotation. This would still have healers but underwhelming and basically kill off healer roles for glorified support
It’s crazy to me that some of yall here have been advocating for changes for 5-6 years. I’m already tired and I only started during mid-ShB.
Let’s be generous and say they rework healers in 8.0. That’s like 4 years later. People would have been here waiting for almost a decade of their lives for these changes. Ridiculous.
If healers don’t receive significant improvements by 7.0, I think it’s time to pack my bags.
Repeating what I said in other thread:
"The problem with high damage is:
-The game is heavily scripted, which means there will always be damage predictable and as such healers will be able to optimize its heals and get downtime
-The healing kit is not deep either, most of it is "heal with X potency" with barely any interactions
-The game would have to be redesigned entirely to allow that high damage
-Would make healing harder to get into as this would have to be carried all the way from high end to story mode, increasing the skill floor"
adding to that
-The devs have already said several times they're not increaing the damage as they want the normal modes to be accesible
-If the dpsing is still boring then the reward of better healing (which is dpsing) is boring punishing better players
-There is no sweetspot for damage. For example I do ultimates on healer what for me is a "good healing check" for a newbie is a hellish experience and what for a newbie is a "good challenge" for me it may be a snoozefest with near 100% dps uptime, this causes a lot of problems as the devs would have to decide which players are their main target at the cost of neglecting the rest
None of those problems are present in the "increase the dps options" and that's why a lot of us advocate for that as the best possible fix
I have no idea why you responded with this to my last comment since it has nothing to do with what I was talking about, but go off I guess. But as someone who started out playing on the PS3 of all things, I managed perfectly fine as SCH on controller during ARR and HW, AST too during HW. Using the controller as an argument against bloat is just a scapegoat argument. Keeping bloat to a minimum is a good thing regardless. Jobs don't need 32 or more actions to be engaging. If you thread interactivity between a smaller selection of tools, you can in turn make something more impactful and built on choice.
WHM has more hotbar space than it knows what to do with, yet its GCD healing is very bloated. Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Medica, Regen, Medica II, Esuna, Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Rapture... This is way too many buttons where most of which offer nothing that adds to WHM's gameplay.
That said, just cutting things that do add value like Kaiten is silly. It's not about hacking off anything you can, but about pruning the tree to grow in a healthy manner.
Okay, we've turned up the damage to 200%. But only in new content, because expecting them to retune every fight in the game previous to the new expac is a bit ridiculous, right? So from 7.0, "healing is relevant."
Except, this does nothing for almost all of the content you play. Everything from level 1-90 still has the weak healing requirements and you're spamming 1-1-1-1 for a majority of that content. So just like Yoshida said with "just do Ultimate lol" we can start saying "just play new content" for people who talk about how boring this entire role is because of 1 button spam, and now we'll have even more tank and DPS players complaining about our role and demanding that SE "fix it" because they're wiping in content more now and they don't like that. So we're not addressing the monotony and boredom of playing through hundreds, if not thousands of hours of content if you pick a healer, and instead just saying "well, catch up to current content if you want to have fun I guess, /shrug"
Or, we can give a few more DPS options (which healers had more of in the past like SCH's DoTs and Shadow Flare) and make the role more accessible for all levels, because baby healers don't need to stress about harder healing requirements, 1 button glaremages won't need to press the new buttons because casual content doesn't particularly need healer DPS to clear, and healers who want to try and improve aren't punished by more Glare/Broil spam and instead are now enabled to have something fun in casual and "hardcore" content. It's fun for everyone!