Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

Hello all. A talking point that has picked up has been the Yukikaze/Hagakure rotation vs the normal rotation. Strictly speaking from the opener to 2 minutes, a normal rotation is about 541/GCD and the Yukikaze/Hagakure rotation is around 537/GCD~. Gap closes when you miss positionals approx 4 times to a .5 difference. If you miss a Midare or Kaeshi, the normal rotation becomes automatically worse at around 533.5/GCD~.

The other talking point is the increased hesitation to post due to uncertainty. As always, don't give up.

---

So if I'm reading this correctly, a Yuki combo spam with complement Hagakure usage into Shinten spam does nearly as much ppGCD as a standard Midare-focused combo? Missing positionals on Kasha and Gekko a total of four times narrows the gap to within .5 ppGCD? Effectively, SE has then made a Dragon Kick rotation for SAM. Is that correct?

Cause if so then that's fucking sad in a way words struggle to describe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

So if I'm reading this correctly, a Yuki combo spam with complement Hagakure usage into Shinten spam does nearly as much ppGCD as a standard Midare-focused combo? Missing positionals on Kasha and Gekko a total of four times narrows the gap to within .5 ppGCD? Effectively, SE has then made a Dragon Kick rotation for SAM. Is that correct?

Cause if so then that's fucking sad in a way words struggle to describe.

---

That's correct. You don't completely ignore the rest of your kit, you just ignore it outside the 2 minutes as much as you can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

That's correct. You don't completely ignore the rest of your kit, you just ignore it outside the 2 minutes as much as you can.

---

Meaning you do two Midare's, two Kaeshi's and one Ogi+Kaeshi every two minutes, as well as (I assume) one Higanbana every minute, since that's still a clear ppGCD gain. Otherwise you're just mindlessly spamming Yuki, mindlessly eating Sen with Hagakure and then mindlessly spamming Shinten. I cannot fathom the thought process the job balance team went through to think that their decisions regarding SAM were going to amount to anything positive. I'm reminded of that time in SB when NIN's ended up using a GCD combo sequence that resulted in more damage than the devs were expecting because they apparently didn't consider that particular combo sequence in their balancing calculations. And here we are again.

It's why the question "do you play your own game?" gets asked. Because as much as people say yes they do, there are certain aspects that people don't touch when they play it. I'm no dev, but I don't play magical ranged much beyond getting it to cap and then forgetting it exists. Has to be the same way for anyone else who doesn't have a lot of free time to learn each and every intricate detail.

Of course, that's why you hire a team of playtesters and get them to play your changes. But why hire those people when you can shove them out the door for your playerbase to beta test for you? Works for Blizzard, and the toxicity you get from the playerbase is peanuts compared to what you save on hiring a dedicated team. At least by how anyone higher up would see it.

I mean I don't know their situation and they may be rushed or something, but it's been pretty clear with all the problems aside job balance that the patch wasn't thoroughly tested in some areas. In ARR Ninja was balanced around their number crunching and players found out a better rotation, making them ridiculously stronger than the developers intended. A test server was brought up several times by the JP community too, I think it's overdue. I've been watching this game get stripped of anything remotely interesting in terms of job balance since feedback from the First coil of Bahamut. There's a lot to like about the game, but encounters aren't one of them aside aesthetics.

Getting increased reports of party finder excluding Samurai from the party. And it's just for clears.

Also, someone requested I add this so I will do so. The Discords have also been in a frenzy since the change.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...00/unknown.png
Spoiler: Most of the discussion is not saying anything positive about the changes.

Maybe one or two people out of the entire sam lounge in The Balance has said something positive about the change. Most of it's just venting/rage. I've already added my share of complaints to it too.

As a fairly casual player (never done extremes or savages) I REALLY dont like pretty much any of these changes.

The whole feel of the class seems to have shifted, the Iajutsu finishers hit for WAY less than previously, feeling underwhelming.

AOE certainly feels greatly nerfed (did they just forget to give Goken auto crit???)

Even the cone to circular change for Goken is annoying, given it plenty of time to try out.

Hello all.

I'd like to summarize a couple things. Increasing frustration between all communities, concerns that it is getting less and less productive. JP players start to wonder how the situation is in EN more. More feelings on how the job is "boring" or "not fun". More comments on being a "Pure DPS". At this point we're all waiting for an answer.

The frustration of still not being addressed after they completely skipped over Samurai in the patch note reading, and saying they will further elaborate, and have not. This stems from them deciding to ignore the overwhelming feedback before the changes were implemented. Saying "For the future" is not enough. We can't see the future, and we see what is in the present. The community has given a lot of patience over the years regarding job design. I just want everyone to think about this. Money is one thing yes, but time is your most valuable resource. When they ask you to wait repeatedly, at some point you need to tell them to stop. Some people don't have that time, and we don't live forever. Telling people to take a break is just as insulting, they are here to convey their feelings because they trust you and want you to make the game better. They want to have fun with this game. If people did not care, they wouldn't be here complaining. I am not saying that every change for the better has to be instant, but it's been nothing but delays of completely ignoring the playerbase, an utter lack of transparency in this regard. Look what happens to the jobs that have reworks. Look at how barebones tanks and healers are. Our fight encounters don't even have any engagement besides damage now. Our job wasn't even in a bad spot, it's a forced change. For what? Are we really preparing the game to transition into the mobile market? Who knows at this point.

I want them to fix what they broke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xAFROx

Dark Knight in Stormblood had an ability called Dark Arts. The way it worked is for a portion of MP, it would alter your next weaponskill or ability or spell. From giving a line aoe the added status of Blind to making most of your combos hit much harder. Enough so that it became a meme.

1 - Dark arts - 2 - Dark arts - ogcd - Dark arts - 3 - repeat

That's a simple way to look at it. And before that, Dark Knight actually had to manage their mp pool in a meaningful way. That's not even getting into the fact that DRK used to be best at self-sustain in dungeons thanks to one ability. Abyssal Drain. It wasn't always a 60 second cooldown. It used to be something spammable with enough MP. God, I miss old Abyssal Drain

---

As an AST you could give a DRK ewer and watch them clean up shop, alas both AST and DRK have changed too much for such a thing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

As an AST you could give a DRK ewer and watch them clean up shop, alas both AST and DRK have changed too much for such a thing

---

I miss the card identities from old AST. Why they're all just 6 or 3% damage now is beyond me, but I was just starting to level it when that happened and decided 'nah, I want more thinking involved'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

Increasing frustration between all communities, concerns that it is getting less and less productive. JP players start to wonder how the situation is in EN more. More feelings on how the job is "boring" or "not fun".

---

Glad to see the JP community echoing our own sentiments. We are all, as SAM players, united in a desire to see the fun and glory of our job returned to us. No compromise in this; the changes are reverted and that's that. Nothing less will suffice. If there is a bigger-picture-approach being utilized with the goal of some overhaul at a later date then let that overhaul come when it is finished. Do not introduce it in such a half-assed, piecemeal way such that you completely upend a fun, functional job, in the middle of an xpac, only two weeks prior to the newest ultimate being released. I don't even do ultimates, and have no plans to nor the patience to try, but I feel for any SAM player or static that has a SAM in it. This change completely throws job synergy out the window, to say nothing of the chore that SAM's have now in terms of retooling melds (or in many cases, swapping to a new main dps).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

As an AST you could give a DRK ewer and watch them clean up shop, alas both AST and DRK have changed too much for such a thing

---

I remember when casters had Mana Shift. I used to troll my BLM friend as a DRK with Darkside active (which prevented gaining MP from any source but our weaponskills and abilities) by asking him to "toss me a Mana Shift." His reaction the first time was hilarious; "How the hell did you DODGE Mana Shift?!"

But putting that aside, it was nice knowing you could strategically turn Darkside off and have an AST hit you with Ewer, or a BLM in ice phase time a Mana Shift to give you a quick infusion of MP that you could then turn into damage. BLM was a great partner with DRK in 4-man's because DA+AB spam allowed a DRK to self-sustain for quite awhile in a big aoe pack, and Mana Shift was an easy oGCD for a BLM in ice phase to toss at his tank. Sure you had to turn Darkside off for a moment but that wasn't even a speed bump in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

Hello all.

I'd like to summarize a couple things. Increasing frustration between all communities, concerns that it is getting less and less productive. JP players start to wonder how the situation is in EN more. More feelings on how the job is "boring" or "not fun". More comments on being a "Pure DPS". At this point we're all waiting for an answer.

The frustration of still not being addressed after they completely skipped over Samurai in the patch note reading, and saying they will further elaborate, and have not. This stems from them deciding to ignore the overwhelming feedback before the changes were implemented. Saying "For the future" is not enough. We can't see the future, and we see what is in the present. The community has given a lot of patience over the years regarding job design. I just want everyone to think about this. Money is one thing yes, but time is your most valuable resource. When they ask you to wait repeatedly, at some point you need to tell them to stop. Some people don't have that time, and we don't live forever. Telling people to take a break is just as insulting, they are here to convey their feelings because they trust you and want you to make the game better. They want to have fun with this game. If people did not care, they wouldn't be here complaining. I am not saying that every change for the better has to be instant, but it's been nothing but delays of completely ignoring the playerbase, an utter lack of transparency in this regard. Look what happens to the jobs that have reworks. Look at how barebones tanks and healers are. Our fight encounters don't even have any engagement besides damage now. Our job wasn't even in a bad spot, it's a forced change. For what? Are we really preparing the game to transition into the mobile market? Who knows at this point.

I want them to fix what they broke.

---

My fear is that their entire PR focus in the near future will be on putting out the housing lottery fire, and they'll conveniently disregard the concerns over job changes. 6.11 will come and go without another response. I certainly hope I'm wrong; my sub runs out in a couple weeks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

My fear is that their entire PR focus in the near future will be on putting out the housing lottery fire, and they'll conveniently disregard the concerns over job changes. 6.11 will come and go without another response. I certainly hope I'm wrong; my sub runs out in a couple weeks.

---

My concerns are if Square wants to forcefully simplify FFXIV to accommodate another device like a Handheld Console and/or Mobile Phone.

Years ago maybe unthinkable, but technology improvement be like that. Suddenly it clicks, yeah high APM on a small device with tons of buttons? that makes no sense, you'd have to cut and trim many corners. Even though that hurts the current playerbase on PC and Controllers, game depth and complexity, if the board decided it makes money, what you gone do? Solution? " Over-Simplifying every Aspect of the Game ".

That's why the argument of " More/Less buttons doesn't mean better gameplay ", is flawed if said without context. FFXIV with just 5 buttons to spam press for our rotation/heal/mitigate/partyheal/engage/disengage/selfheal/Limitbreak, sounds like a... " Nightmare".

That's my tinfoil hat talking though, hoping that it's talking out of its.... hole? " BUTT ", who knows! I have trust issues, for a good reason... and I do not want to see our jobs be simplified for this reason at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

My fear is that their entire PR focus in the near future will be on putting out the housing lottery fire, and they'll conveniently disregard the concerns over job changes. 6.11 will come and go without another response. I certainly hope I'm wrong; my sub runs out in a couple weeks.

---

Oh no doubt that thought has crossed my mind. And it has also been brought up in all communities. You can't blame people for thinking that way really. I want to be hopeful they realize they were wrong, but from past experiences they are very stubborn in their vision. I'm concerned people want to compromise, as Quor said, there is only one solution and it is a full revert of the changes. They can add the Meikyo/Yaten/Third Eye changes later if they don't have time. Even if this was a part of a larger rework, no one will accept that rework if the foundation is no good either. They need to accept that.

I am going to commit to the new Ultimate as my last piece of content if they refuse to change it back. And it won't be on the job I love most and I will despise it because I was never given the option. I mean the timing was bad too and everyone knows it. Players who don't do Ultimate understood that.

I apologize if I don't respond to all of you individually, just know I do read all your comments and give them a like. Who knows if they use that in their feedback collection lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

Hello all.

I'd like to summarize a couple things. Increasing frustration between all communities, concerns that it is getting less and less productive. JP players start to wonder how the situation is in EN more. More feelings on how the job is "boring" or "not fun". More comments on being a "Pure DPS". At this point we're all waiting for an answer.

The frustration of still not being addressed after they completely skipped over Samurai in the patch note reading, and saying they will further elaborate, and have not. This stems from them deciding to ignore the overwhelming feedback before the changes were implemented. Saying "For the future" is not enough. We can't see the future, and we see what is in the present. The community has given a lot of patience over the years regarding job design. I just want everyone to think about this. Money is one thing yes, but time is your most valuable resource. When they ask you to wait repeatedly, at some point you need to tell them to stop. Some people don't have that time, and we don't live forever. Telling people to take a break is just as insulting, they are here to convey their feelings because they trust you and want you to make the game better. They want to have fun with this game. If people did not care, they wouldn't be here complaining. I am not saying that every change for the better has to be instant, but it's been nothing but delays of completely ignoring the playerbase, an utter lack of transparency in this regard. Look what happens to the jobs that have reworks. Look at how barebones tanks and healers are. Our fight encounters don't even have any engagement besides damage now. Our job wasn't even in a bad spot, it's a forced change. For what? Are we really preparing the game to transition into the mobile market? Who knows at this point.

I want them to fix what they broke.

---

Here I was thinking I was the only person that IRL felt sad about these changes. It's been a frustrating last week or so and I'm so glad to see others who are just wanting SE to say something. I'm a bit concerned honestly that I care this much but hey, I like this game.

Like many here, I dont usually post on the official forums. The recent changes to SAM have made me want to speak up. 6.08 SAM felt great. It rewarded proper resource management with "big booms". The kaiten animation was by far the best flourish before an iaijutsu and just made SAM feel great to play. True, SAM dps numbers are largely unchanged (except for a meager 3% nerf), but it's not about the numbers. The changes are completely unacceptable. If action bloat is the issue, the changes listed through the forum replies are a great starting point. After reading through I noticed no one mentioned a, in my opinion anyhow, useless action. The action that literally takes you out of the fight for 15 seconds for very little gain, Meditate. Meditate at one point worked well for phase changes, but not so much anymore. Iaijutsu give stacks of meditation, all weaponskills give kenki, Meditate just seems like an extra button that doesn't matter anymore.
Just my 2 gil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BalinS

Like many here, I dont usually post on the official forums. The recent changes to SAM have made me want to speak up. 6.08 SAM felt great. It rewarded proper resource management with "big booms". The kaiten animation was by far the best flourish before an iaijutsu and just made SAM feel great to play. True, SAM dps numbers are largely unchanged (except for a meager 3% nerf), but it's not about the numbers. The changes are completely unacceptable. If action bloat is the issue, the changes listed through the forum replies are a great starting point. After reading through I noticed no one mentioned a, in my opinion anyhow, useless action. The action that literally takes you out of the fight for 15 seconds for very little gain, Meditate. Meditate at one point worked well for phase changes, but not so much anymore. Iaijutsu give stacks of meditation, all weaponskills give kenki, Meditate just seems like an extra button that doesn't matter anymore.
Just my 2 gil.

---

Meditate is primarily something to do during downtime. But I will agree that 9 times out of 10, you're probably about to cap meditation stacks when that occurs.

Not saying it isn't useless, just mentioning what it was intended for, like Anatman on monk or..... actually, that's also a bad skill and I don't think there's anything else like it that channels other than dancer's improv.

....damn, what a useless skill in most cases. But I still like pressing it. It gives me focus and makes me look cool for being still

I created a forum account to discuss the SAM changes in the week before they were released. Sadly it seems they arent earnest about taking player feedback, or about posting that long form explanation post Yoshi said they would about SAM/NIN. Many people who dont play SAM have voiced their position that "well they've done this to other classes in the past (healers, DRK, SMN, etc) so SAM players shouldnt whine about the changes". This is wholly illogical. If it was wrong to ignore player feedback in the past on those changes and the outrage those caused, then surely it continues to be wrong to not take player feedback into consideration. FFXIV is a GAME and is meant to be played for FUN. If player enjoyment is affected negatively by a change, dev stubbornness and refusal to address, discuss, or fix said issues is a PROBLEM. Blizzard did this all the time - they "knew better" and made changes players didnt want and refused to change them back. However, Blizzard at least does blue posts - long form posts explaining and discussing changes with players. We havent seen that from SE. If players are having less fun and its a widespread issue, they should properly explain what problem they addressed, why it couldnt have been done a plethora of other ways, and what they plan to do about it moving forward. Implementing an unpopular change then giving radio silence on the issue, stubbornly sticking to your guns over and over again is not a recipe for long term player retention or trust.

People seem to forget that for nearly 2 decades Blizzard was a beloved, trusted dev that players put so much faith into. Changes that seemed or felt bad were chalked up to "well the devs are doing their best, they are good guys, so lets not act like the sky is falling". People loved the devs until...they didnt. I really really like YoshiP and the devs, but that love and trust isnt an infinite resource. At some point they will have to do a better job of actively discussing and addressing concerns with players and not making pronouncements from on high, or there will come a time people will stop giving them tons of rope and leeway to work with.

You know, on paper this specific change wouldn't have garnered as much pushback as it is if you think about it, and I was sitting here thinking about why. Is it just because the SAM players are the most vocal? I thought perhaps, but eventually my thoughts ended up at:

No, this is the logical conclusion of a grander longstanding issue of class homogenization and simplification across the board. This is merely the dam bursting.
That meme of the grim reaper knocking on doors gutting jobs before it is a wholly accurate portrayal of how I see this entire situation.

Job after job has been retouched and reworked to the overall detriment of what people enjoyed about the job in the first place. Summoner now has flavor but it's mechanically uninteresting and I've heard that flavor doesn't feel earned. Dark Knight is neither mechanically nor visually interesting, and until recently had to work against its own design just to perform well. It performs well, but it feels like crap doing so with baffling design choices that remained for YEARS. Samurai is currently going through this fiasco, with the removal of kaiten and autocrits the iaijutsu has lost much of it's impact and whatever kenki management SAM had had been practically wiped away in favor of 'hit poke button when light up' low IQ playstyle.

I even hear that Dragoons are fearful they'll be next, as their class is probably as good as it'll get with the 6.1 changes and they really don't need much more. 6.2 has me and other DRGs I know DREADING the potential gutting.

Yoshi P, I know that you and your team try and work hard to please everyone...in pleasing everyone, you please no one though and hints have constantly been dropping that your balance team doesn't clearly understand what your players like about your jobs. Defend the designers all you want, shift blame onto yourself, but you need to step back and really take a look at what we're all saying.

Good day all. Topics of interest today are the following: Reaper population and discussion dwindling, Discussions of FF16 and speculation on if it is impacting FF14, realization that we are paying the monthly sub to be testing the changes on the live server, and some random kit reworks people have thought of. There are posters who have posted before expressing their discontent with the changes every day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

Good day all. Topics of interest today are the following: Reaper population and discussion dwindling, Discussions of FF16 and speculation on if it is impacting FF14, realization that we are paying the monthly sub to be testing the changes on the live server, and some random kit reworks people have thought of. There are posters who have posted before expressing their discontent with the changes every day.

---

Thanks for keeping us posted on the general temperature of the JP forums with regard to this issue, it's encouraging to know they stand with us.

Feels like all we have to do is anxiously await some kind of response and see whether SE walks this back, or doubles down on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

Hello all.

I'd like to summarize a couple things. Increasing frustration between all communities, concerns that it is getting less and less productive. JP players start to wonder how the situation is in EN more. More feelings on how the job is "boring" or "not fun". More comments on being a "Pure DPS". At this point we're all waiting for an answer.

The frustration of still not being addressed after they completely skipped over Samurai in the patch note reading, and saying they will further elaborate, and have not. This stems from them deciding to ignore the overwhelming feedback before the changes were implemented. Saying "For the future" is not enough. We can't see the future, and we see what is in the present. The community has given a lot of patience over the years regarding job design. I just want everyone to think about this. Money is one thing yes, but time is your most valuable resource. When they ask you to wait repeatedly, at some point you need to tell them to stop. Some people don't have that time, and we don't live forever. Telling people to take a break is just as insulting, they are here to convey their feelings because they trust you and want you to make the game better. They want to have fun with this game. If people did not care, they wouldn't be here complaining. I am not saying that every change for the better has to be instant, but it's been nothing but delays of completely ignoring the playerbase, an utter lack of transparency in this regard. Look what happens to the jobs that have reworks. Look at how barebones tanks and healers are. Our fight encounters don't even have any engagement besides damage now. Our job wasn't even in a bad spot, it's a forced change. For what? Are we really preparing the game to transition into the mobile market? Who knows at this point.

I want them to fix what they broke.

---

I'm so glad they're feeling the same way! I hope EU players are, too. A united voice would be pleasant &, I hope, more impactful. The Samurai flourish, its character, was tied to that move. It's not a matter of overall dps, or it certainly isn't for me, anyway. My lalafell does all the classes, but some don't fit her, so I make an alt who specializes (and it's easier to gear that way, too - as an aside, also fun to see the story through different/taller eyes.) It's so disheartening and discouraging to have what I consider the signature move just gone and replaced by something flat that could be any 2h warrior in any game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KYuuma

To the uninitiated, abrupt and dramatic gameplay shift in FFXIV isn't a new problem in 6.1. They've been around for years, Bard got shafted hard in 3.0 and it took them 2 years. 2. Years. To fix their own damn game.

All I'm saying is we're probably looking at similar timeframe if they're this adamant on not reverting back to 6.08. That's a strong enough reason to consider unsubbing in my eyes.

---

Also speaks entirely to the reason the backlash and outrage is so prominent.

The idea that a class I have played since it has been available, turned into garbage night and day difference, for potentially a couple of expansions before it gets fixed is a terrible feeling.


I don't question SE believing SAM had issues they needed to correct when it came to future balancing/adding to the class. Seems legitimate enough... I found it fun up to 6.1, but I don't know what SE has planned in the future for the class...


What I do question however, is SE absolutely gutting the enjoyment of the class, effectively making it as simple and monotonous as possible, with no indication of a solution, or any other changes... They just absolutely murdered the class without a second look and then just left it to sit like a pile of dog poo on a hot sidewalk....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

They just absolutely murdered the class without a second look and then just left it to sit like a pile of dog poo on a hot sidewalk....

---

So...you don't like playing with hot poo?

That throws a kink in the entire design direction!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Ya know this might come of toxic, then again Square and Community help me become that...

When someone gives an opinion of Kaiten and its approval to it's removal... (that rhymed hehe) and sometimes claiming to Main SAM perhaps even for years... does anyone ever go to their " Oaks", to their " Mahogany " if you will to check if they done recent content as SAM at all?

Often times I find out they have not and actualy cleared content with another class. Heck through Lodestone sometimes I see them never having leveled Samurai. Is that just me or am taking this far? am I threading a thin line of something? idk forum rules honestly I even been cursing in some of my posts cause of utter frustrations from SAM changes coupled with my housing lottery being lost to Nr... 0

---

Might be a little obsessive, but in all honesty I don't really hold it against you. The internet is full of callous, spiteful people and I wouldn't put it past a decent portion of the populace to be so giddy over a class they don't play being gutted of all fun and theme that they would go out of their way to pretend to like a support a negative as nothing more then self pleasing trollish behavior. It happens rabidly in other subjects, its not surprising to see it in gaming.


And I certainly don't blame you for it raising your ire considering the people doing it are doing it entirely for self serving reasons with no connection to the actual topic at hand.

I just hope that any influence those sorts of posts can have is the specific recognition of being nothing more then trolling... Crossing my fingers on that one as most posts supporting the removal of Kaiten reveal the poster to have absolute no idea of what they are talking about in the first place, even without looking up their play history.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

So...you don't like playing with hot poo?

That throws a kink in the entire design direction!

---

Hey... Everyone has to grow up at some point...


Not to mention the looks you get from people around the neighborhood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xAFROx

I miss the card identities from old AST. Why they're all just 6 or 3% damage now is beyond me, but I was just starting to level it when that happened and decided 'nah, I want more thinking involved'

---

The reason for the change in card effects is because certain communities within the game would only play balance, which was a DPS boosting card, and declared all other cards useless. This community was listened to and the card effects have all been turned into the balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

The reason for the change in card effects is because certain communities within the game would only play balance, which was a DPS boosting card, and declared all other cards useless. This community was listened to and the card effects have all been turned into the balance.

---

And here I thought the only card that wasn't used was uh... which one granted TP? Spire? I thought that was the one no one liked.

But since we're talking about AST, I miss the idea of how flexible it could be with its two modes of diurnal and nocturnal sect. Neutral sect survived but I don't get why they needed to remove half of the jobs kit when it was just tied to a stance you choose before combat.

And on the topic of SAM, I don't log in frequently, but the few times that I do, I typically go dps because I'm too lazy to play tank a lot of the time, but currently my only jobs at 90 are GNB and SAM, and it feels really odd trying to keep track of what I should be doing. I don't know if I should be pooling my kenki for more shinten in spurts or spamming it incessantly at low kenki values, but I'm unironically paying less attention to the fights with a button gone.

I'm having tunnel vision by looking at my bars and resource, using Hagakure more frequently and am only using Midare infrequently. Before I used to build those like no one's business and now it's a 50/50 if I even use it or burn the Sen for kenki.

Am I playing as the devs intended yet? It seems a bit more in line with the change to Tenka Goken that I'm eating unnecessary hits just to make use of as much of my kit as I can remember to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xAFROx

And here I thought the only card that wasn't used was uh... which one granted TP? Spire? I thought that was the one no one liked.

---

The issue with AST basically boiled down to how "pre-pull" could last multiple minutes if the AST got "unlucky" and didn't have a spread Balance (which meant one Ewer or Spire to be Royal Road'd and one Balance) ready to go with a Balance in reserve. If you got unlucky then you'd have raid group sitting there for minutes waiting for the AST to get the perfect setup.

The other cards weren't bad per se but they had their own issues. Ewer was nice to have in your back pocket for MP regen but in an ideal situation you didn't need that. Spire was generally not needed outside of Royal Road because most jobs had TP management plus MCH and BRD had a TP regen ability they could use. Arrow was actually pretty baller on BLM but basically useless on anyone else because it fucked up their rotations. Although I did take a personal bit of perverse pleasure in putting an enhanced Arrow on a MNK and watching them bottom out on TP moments later since they would have something like a sub-1.5 GCD.

Spear was also pretty great once it was changed to enhanced crit but when it was a CD reduction thing it was weird to use since it only worked if you use it on someone before they used their CD's. Since CD usage is pretty much pre-planned to line up with buffs using Spear typically was more trouble than it was worth as it would mis-align everything.

Bole was neat in concept but ultimately never panned out. You see it's spiritual successor in WHM's Aquaveil, which functions in basically the same way. But as a card you juse maybe used Bole for the enhancement boost via RR and that was it.

So this left the Balance, which was the straight damage boosting card, and when Spread via RR you were looking at a 15% (or 10 later on, iirc) boost to everyone in the raid, which was absolutely huge from a dps perspective. Ewer and Spire had value for enabling the Spread function from RR while Arrow, Spear and Bole were basically re-drawn or outright discarded unless you could leverage a Bole to boost a Balance and give that to your best dps right before burst phase. Since the ideal combination used by the playerbase was generally Spread Balance, SE just said "ok fine, here" and made Divination with AST while making all the regular cards just various amounts of +dmg%.

On the one hand this kinda sucked because the unique flavor of Arrow and Spear (when it was CD reduction) were pretty neat. But the practical usage they ended up bringing were negligible and hard to manage even when useful due to the RNG nature of the cards. So people leaned into Balance as the only card and Spread as the only RR effect because it was how you got the most consistent bang for your buck. SE made changes that reflected the trends of the community at large, but AST lost a bit of itself in the process.

It's hard as a player because I can see and understand the perspective SE is coming from here, but when you look at the path that led from what AST was to where we are now with SAM and other jobs I just can't support that sort of simplification anymore.

Hey guys. With 6.11 approaching, users are once more speaking again to reiterate their points. Job comparisons have been common now and the fact we're all getting the homogenization treatment is widely discussed. Namely the fact that we feel like a Monk.

A good point brought up, it's simple to say "change jobs" or "it doesn't matter". For Ultimate, you want as little self added problems as possible. It isn't a minor time investment. If you stay Samurai for whatever reason, if no one changes jobs and you have anyone with critical buffs, you're already making it harder for yourself. Or will you tell your Bard, Scholar, and/or Dragoon to change jobs for your sake? What if they aren't even comfortable or don't have the missing gear on the other job? Then instead, you want the Samurai to change? What if they don't have the gear or are not comfortable either? Let's say you have it sorted and you'll take the risk. You wipe to a DPS check after hours of reaching that point repeatedly. What do you think people will blame first? It's just simply not a good time to implement the changes no matter the reasoning.

There was a Famitsu interview where YoshiP said there was a risk changing job balance right before Ultimate. He acknowledged it, yet he still did it. Paraphrased, "It may not be accepted very well for those who are trying to master their jobs for the upcoming challenge." He goes on to say he is confident we can adapt to these changes and that he wants to make the environment as comfortable as possible.

I don't think he was lying, I think he just doesn't realize how these jobs play out. "Changes" for Samurai, yet people straight up call it a nerf. Because it is. You can downplay it all you want. It's still a nerf, and people are okay with that part and want our identity and rotation back. I understand people are getting angrier, but don't throw insults at the developers, it won't get your point across. Reminder to give them the feedback they asked for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

There was a Famitsu interview where YoshiP said there was a risk changing job balance right before Ultimate. He acknowledged it, yet he still did it. Paraphrased, "It may not be accepted very well for those who are trying to master their jobs for the upcoming challenge." He goes on to say he is confident we can adapt to these changes and that he wants to make the environment as comfortable as possible.

---

They lowered samurai's skill floor and ceiling, so "adapting to the changes" isn't something anyone is likely struggling with - the struggle is that they butchered the job so thoroughly that a lot of samurai mains no longer want to play it regardless of its dps output.

We aren't struggling to adapt to the new samurai kit - we're struggling to find a new dps to main, and unless you happen to like monk, that means you're way behind on gear.

Some may think it's foolish to switch mains over these changes, but that's a testament to how much we dislike these changes, and on top of that, it's the most pure form of feedback: Samurai was my main - it was my favorite out of all the jobs, and after the 6.1 changes, now it isn't.

It's important to figure out the details, but that feedback alone is enough to warrant concern - whatever it was that people liked about that job, the changes degraded it. Nothing highlights bad changes like when people quit playing a job, activity, game, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roxus

I don't think he was lying, I think he just doesn't realize how these jobs play out. "Changes" for Samurai, yet people straight up call it a nerf. Because it is. You can downplay it all you want. It's still a nerf, and people are okay with that part and want our identity and rotation back. I understand people are getting angrier, but don't throw insults at the developers, it won't get your point across. Reminder to give them the feedback they asked for.

---

I think this is very important because it is an outright nerf. The ridiculous math from the Balance will say it's "only" 3% in a crit comp but anyone with eyes can tell you that a guaranteed crit that's has 33% less potency than before is a major nerf. SAM damage has been gutted in the pursuit of some misbegotten idea of "smoothing out damage variance" and the consequence of it is that the job feels and plays worse than it did before.

Constant, unrelenting feedback is needed. And not just SAM either; we take back SAM and then we continue on to address the larger issue with job design that has long-since plagued FF14. Plenty of other DPS jobs have issues that need to be addressed and the problems that tanks and healers feel from an engagement and moment-to-moment perspective in regards to their dps rotation (or lack thereof in the case of healers) is a major issue that needs to be fixed. Job accessibility is fine but the balancing team has gone too far. Sacrificing actual depth and fun for ease of use is the death knell for game longevity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

I think this is very important because it is an outright nerf. The ridiculous math from the Balance will say it's "only" 3% in a crit comp but anyone with eyes can tell you that a guaranteed crit that's has 33% less potency than before is a major nerf. SAM damage has been gutted in the pursuit of some misbegotten idea of "smoothing out damage variance" and the consequence of it is that the job feels and plays worse than it did before.

Constant, unrelenting feedback is needed. And not just SAM either; we take back SAM and then we continue on to address the larger issue with job design that has long-since plagued FF14. Plenty of other DPS jobs have issues that need to be addressed and the problems that tanks and healers feel from an engagement and moment-to-moment perspective in regards to their dps rotation (or lack thereof in the case of healers) is a major issue that needs to be fixed. Job accessibility is fine but the balancing team has gone too far. Sacrificing actual depth and fun for ease of use is the death knell for game longevity.

---

The calculations are also only talking about the average. The ceiling you lose is 10-12%. If people are so focused on numbers, you wouldn't be fussing over the average, you'd be looking at how high you can get, which is how JP views the changes.

Agreed. Even if Samurai gets changed back, it will only be a matter of time before they try again. The idea to remove anything problematic instead of attempting to fix it without half-heartedly increasing mere potency numbers needs to change. Enmity, Cross Role, CC, Arenas, I could go on but you get the point. I get that they are afraid ever since Heavensward, but enough is enough.

New to game, cleared p4s, got full BIS for samurai was excited to prog DSR! Had to re-roll reaper

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

They lowered samurai's skill floor and ceiling, so "adapting to the changes" isn't something anyone is likely struggling with - the struggle is that they butchered the job so thoroughly that a lot of samurai mains no longer want to play it regardless of its dps output.

We aren't struggling to adapt to the new samurai kit - we're struggling to find a new dps to main, and unless you happen to like monk, that means you're way behind on gear.

Some may think it's foolish to switch mains over these changes, but that's a testament to how much we dislike these changes, and on top of that, it's the most pure form of feedback: Samurai was my main - it was my favorite out of all the jobs, and after the 6.1 changes, now it isn't.

It's important to figure out the details, but that feedback alone is enough to warrant concern - whatever it was that people liked about that job, the changes degraded it. Nothing highlights bad changes like when people quit playing a job, activity, game, etc.

---

This. This. This.

I've switched from SAM main after having mained it since it was released some 5 years ago to NIN. I am SO FAR behind on gear now, gear that I was going to upgrade through the new 24 man to iLvl 600 is now useless as far as I am concerned.

I'd grind tomes faster but there's still the ridiculously low tome cap of 450 per week so there's MANY more weeks of grinding ahead.

It's the most blatantly disrespectful display to players I can remember. I've mentioned this in another thread I made about this but if they made this change for EW release at LEAST we wouldn't have spent all our time gearing up our main. Our main which, for all intents and purposes was perfectly fine.

The developers deserve every ounce of hate and anger they get from this. What they did and when they did it was totally unacceptable and done without warning. Shame on them, they should ABSOLUTELY know better by this point.

It's why I've often said we need to be able to get refunds on gear if massive changes were implemented to a role. It's not fun having to collect a whole new set you never anticipated needing for another job. As it stands, I'm forced to play sam for the first week of dragonsong because I just flat out don't have the gear ready for nin.

I mean, I'd rather they not treat us like beta testers and throw in half thought out and very poorly implemented changes, and actually test them to see how it'd feel for people. But if we are going to be beta testing their bad ideas, at least give us a mitigating factor in being able to return gear we're not going to use. You can note that down in your log as "your changes are bad and you should feel bad," devs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurenXIV

Our main which, for all intents and purposes was perfectly fine.

---

This is the part that really blows my mind - I mean, yeah, the changes are also mind-blowingly bad, but really, who wanted this? Who asked for any change, let alone this one? Were any samurai mains complaining about the job? In my opinion it was beyond fine as it was - it was nigh ideal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cjbeagle

This is the part that really blows my mind - I mean, yeah, the changes are also mind-blowingly bad, but really, who wanted this? Who asked for any change, let alone this one? Were any samurai mains complaining about the job? In my opinion it was beyond fine as it was - it was nigh ideal.

---

Literally no one. The devs decided to do this as a sort of futureproofing the job for later revisions going forward. Presumably for the next expansion, but this is too soon and too sudden and too awful in the present. And if this is really the direction they intend to go moving forward, I think we at least deserve a proper explanation as to their intended reasons when the change has literally killed entire party comps right before stuff like ultimate.

I am not a high end player, so technically, I am not heavily impacted. But I am greatly dissatisfied with the only dps job I leveled to cap. I either need to go level something else for fun or prioritize tanking as GNB full time because I hardly play enough to power level other jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xAFROx

Literally no one. The devs decided to do this as a sort of futureproofing the job for later revisions going forward. Presumably for the next expansion, but this is too soon and too sudden and too awful in the present. And if this is really the direction they intend to go moving forward, I think we at least deserve a proper explanation as to their intended reasons when the change has literally killed entire party comps right before stuff like ultimate.

I am not a high end player, so technically, I am not heavily impacted. But I am greatly dissatisfied with the only dps job I leveled to cap. I either need to go level something else for fun or prioritize tanking as GNB full time because I hardly play enough to power level other jobs

---

That's what I've been told, too - that the Kaiten removal has something to do with making future changes easier.

This makes me more nervous than I was - so it isn't just about button bloat, but a general direction. For that reason, among others, I think it's really important to keep at this, because it is reminding me unfavorably of other mmos I've played (I started ff in '16, so before that) - when the direction went from choice & talent trees with meaningful choices there, too, to an exceptionally bland, easy-for-all blob. Personally, I'd prefer MORE choices in my classes. I think the class I've liked best in any mmo was the old Burglar in LOTRO - it was feeble and slow but I had to make a choice with every hit, and I loved that. I'm not expecting that, or asking for it, but I surely do not want this game to go in the other direction, so that a lovely flowing class like the Samurai *was* becomes dull and boring.