6.08 Patch Notes

The Cardsystem for ASt works the same as WHM mana management or SCH complex and fun faerie interactions or the DPS rotation of all healers....*sniff* can somebody give some of their compium ? i need a dose

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

well we can argue that mnk buff was not needed, but we can notice that sam (0 partybuff) is still behind mnk and reaper?

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Not for raw damage it isn't. And for that sites way of using rdps it needs to not be number one because it contributes more than any other job during buffs by far. So it's contribution is understated in that metric. Sam is probably tied with monk at high level play if not better.

I am just excited for 6.1 :)

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Originally Posted by WiccaP

It's not about just caring about numbers, its about feeling useful to the party and not feeling like we bring the whole group down by playing a job we like. Its about the fact that compared to the other ranged physical jobs, mch will have a harder time comparing to them.

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This. Thank-you. I have always tried - even in snore-fest inducing content to carry my weight. I feel as it stands now, I just don't want to play MCH anymore, which is sad because it has been my main DPS since HW. I 100% understand the ranged DPS tax - but then how do you justify giving bard and dancer (who both bring party utility to the table) buffs over MCH? Tactician is given to all 3 in some form, please stop using that as "there is your utility". Something is glaringly rotton here and needs fixed before every group ends up being sage, reaper and warrior.

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Originally Posted by AzazelCaine

This. Thank-you. I have always tried - even in snore-fest inducing content to carry my weight. I feel as it stands now, I just don't want to play MCH anymore, which is sad because it has been my main DPS since HW. I 100% understand the ranged DPS tax - but then how do you justify giving bard and dancer (who both bring party utility to the table) buffs over MCH? Tactician is given to all 3 in some form, please stop using that as "there is your utility". Something is glaringly rotton here and needs fixed before every group ends up being sage, reaper and warrior.

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I mean, RDPS buffs aren't necessarily an end all, be all situation. Not saying I don't think MCH could use some tweaks, maybe --but an uncoordinated group that improperly plays around RDPS buffs is generally going to benefit from a job that just supplies raw, adps (So like, MCH/BLM/SAM). So, I don't think MCH needs it's own DMG+ buff, or more utility (okay I won't say no to seeing pallisade again in some form), but it should generally be supplying more damage (in a perfect balanced world) than a BRD/DNC in their ADPS vs. their RDPS contributions on average.

It's even like before, comparing RPR + SAM -- SAM supplied a lot more DPS under buffs than RPR could, when played well, while RPR beat out SAM in RDPS contribution on average (but SAM beat out RPR in ADPS, generally speaking -- and MNK was technically above both, though that was more of a high end thing as I don't know if MNK itself has a more complicated skill floor than RPR or SAM, which will skew things -- it's the job I've played the least).

Even now, if someone picked the lowest DPS melee job, which I think is still NIN, I don't feel like they're a detriment to a run -- they won't be able to carry a run as hard as SAM/MNK now, but their contribution isn't negligible (whereas, prior, Dancer contributions felt incredibly low especially relative to their role slot -- definitely not unviably low, but a low that could be felt, similar to PLD's state).

Not saying, again, that tweaks are unnecessary/unneeded/unwanted etc... but more saying that at this juncture, there isn't really a job (Tank/DPS/Healer) that's a detriment to the party, or even performing so much lower than their cohorts that a 1% enrage in PF might feel related to job choice. (And even then, any enrage, even prior to these buffs, aside from week 1 4S~, is usually more an issue with "I can't carry harder than this on PLD/DNC" when the other party members are struggling to push buttons/survive).

SAM and BLM got some buffs, which makes sense as a selfish DPS being at the top.
DRG needed some buffs to be competing with RPR. This update is a good buff for them. The change to tether I assume is because sometimes the DPS you give your tether to moves out of range and then you just lose your DPS buff as opposed to if you just gave it to yourself.
DNC got some buffs, which was much needed - even accounting for its support DPS by buffing others, the damage was still on the low side in rDPS. Now it's competing with BRD, so that's good.


PLD got some much needed buffs based on its DPS as it was lagging quite behind in comparison to other tanks. It's in a good spot now.
WAR getting a buff on Tomahawk is more like... WAR didn't really need any buffs, but here's a consolation to not feel left out until you get your dash.

Speaking of left out, rest in pieces, DRK and healers. White mage in particular needs a bit more buffs in its MP management in contrast to the other healers - just a bit more. Afflatus Misery's potency could also be bumped up to be DPS neutral too.

For DRK and the other healers, the problem doesn't really rely on potency as much as it does on gameplay issues revolving around its toolkit. Even if all the tanks got buffed, DRK's position in mitigation isn't as impactful as the other two in overall mitigation. In the event they want to keep tanks to be more tanky, healers really need something else to do outside of .. healing that does nothing at full HP with how many ways the tanks can restore HP? Don't get me wrong, I'm super happy that other jobs have more utility. It's just that ... spamming Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis because there's nothing to to do other than 1 button DPS when no healing is required will get very stale, and very fast. Hopefully it will be addressed in 6.1 though, as 6.08 was mainly potency changes.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

...Even if all the tanks got buffed, DRK's position in mitigation isn't as impactful as the other two in overall mitigation...

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Are you kidding? DRK mitigation feels as good as it ever has, even better now that you have oblation up at every time you need to use mit. DRK feels like it takes barely any damage at the moment if you plan your mitigation correctly. PLD and GNB feel a bit squish compared, and WAR is only really good after you have took damage, self heal is never going to be as good as prevention.

DRK mostly feels weird because of its lack of self-sustain compared to the other tanks.

I've been able to salvage healer-less situations in dungeons with the other three tanks, but TBN simply isn't potent enough to keep everyone from rolling over within a few instances of unavoidable damage comparatively.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Are you kidding? DRK mitigation feels as good as it ever has, even better now that you have oblation up at every time you need to use mit. DRK feels like it takes barely any damage at the moment if you plan your mitigation correctly. PLD and GNB feel a bit squish compared, and WAR is only really good after you have took damage, self heal is never going to be as good as prevention.

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Lemme rephrase - It can survive on its own to a certain extent, but god forbid if you need to save others to prepare for a raidwide & a tankbuster, but the healer is down. DRK's essentially doomed. It lives up to the definition of a tank, but it can't step out of its bounds in its role to 'protect another' whereas PLD, WAR, and GNB can without too much issue because they can heal back up later. DRK either gives a 10% mit, or gives their TBN to someone else. Their natural sustain isn't as good as the others, so their recovery is very gimped. The other roles can also save themselves if they are required to use their invuln, but DRK specifically requires a healer - and a pure healer at that. Chances are, SGE and SCH won't be able to save DRK because they would pre-emptively be healing to prevent DRK from ever needing to use their invuln in the first place.

In a bigger skill cap difference, DRK suffers more exactly because their invuln isn't really a skill they can fall back on based on party comp. Plus, it still consumes healer resources to utilize and remove, so the skill has a lot of downsides to its usage.

Living dead is never going to be fixed, my crackpot theory is that it's because it validates whm, without living dead there would be no reason to play or even allow that bad job in any content.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

A large part of that is because of how easy it is to play ( look at the DPS difference between the skill floor and ceiling, the difference is way less ) and also because the game is so insanely flooded with RPR EVERYWHERE.
MNK is also an old Job while RPR is the new kid in town a lot of people stuck with MNK through thick and thin and I think people generally maybe have more respect for it getting some sunshine.
RPR kinda just came in, is way easier and Arcane Crest is incredibly powerful even post nerf and deals top tier damage it feels unfair.

Edit: To be clear tho I don't think that MNK needed a buff either.
But I also don't think that RPR deserves to be where it's at, it also gets a lot of stigma because a lot of the edgelord LARP:ers that gave SAM stigma play it in droves too.
And it kinda leaves a bad taste in peoples mouth when they can put out high numbers even tho being pretty bad.

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All i get from this is that the change monk needed was to be less punishing/easier. Saying a class doesnt deserve to do damage just feels like jealousy to me. Balance shouldnt be based on the difficulty of the job imo. If you want to play a harder job play it, but all jobs should be balanced at high end. (You can balance the average player by adjusting how punishing aspects of the class are to raise the floor of skill while not affecting the ceiling.) Also to be quite honest if you simply get full uptime on any class you will beat like 80% of the playerbase for this game because it is so incredibly casual friendly. (Not necessarily a bad thing) The issue I have is that at high end monk is just devastating now. And I expect it to get worse as people push monk optimization while reaper will probably have very little left to gain. I would like to have seen monk changed in making positionals less punishing or something to that tune than a potency buff. Also needed heavier drg/nin buffs and a more moderate sam buff.

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Originally Posted by AzazelCaine

This. Thank-you. I have always tried - even in snore-fest inducing content to carry my weight. I feel as it stands now, I just don't want to play MCH anymore, which is sad because it has been my main DPS since HW. I 100% understand the ranged DPS tax - but then how do you justify giving bard and dancer (who both bring party utility to the table) buffs over MCH? Tactician is given to all 3 in some form, please stop using that as "there is your utility". Something is glaringly rotton here and needs fixed before every group ends up being sage, reaper and warrior.

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Same here, MCH since HW.
In HW I was "too useful", in SB you had the horrible Flamethrower but the job remained useful.
In ShB, MCH wasn't the worst Ranged DPS, it would only bring DPS and that was it. A common feedback was "more utility", but this was ignored.
Now in 6.08, it still only brings DPS except this time it's behind DNC that can shield and heal.

Since media tour, I decided to go GNB/SGE. Went GNB, I don't have the DPS of a MCH but at least I feel useful to the party.
And that's what matters, what we want.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

A common feedback was "more utility", but this was ignored.

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Every subrole of DPS has a "selfish" job. MCH is the physical ranged selfish job. Unless they strip all the utility away from DNC or BRD (or make a new physical ranged), you're not getting utility.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

Every subrole of DPS has a "selfish" job. MCH is the physical ranged selfish job. Unless they strip all the utility away from DNC or BRD (or make a new physical ranged), you're not getting utility.

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No, but they should buff MCH to be at the top of the physical ranged dps, before BRD and DNC. This ain't going to happen anytime due to the stupid "ranged tax" that limits the dps rang they have allocated to the role ("stupid" as the casters are pretty mobile themselves these days).

Once again SE proves its doesn't know what to do with MCH. I'd be down for gunmage back if they buffed damage to RPR/MNK levels.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Once again SE proves its doesn't know what to do with MCH. I'd be down for gunmage back if they buffed damage to RPR/MNK levels.

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I loved gunmage, although it would wind up being the most immobile job in the game at this point. We would need a mobility action next expac.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

Every subrole of DPS has a "selfish" job. MCH is the physical ranged selfish job. Unless they strip all the utility away from DNC or BRD (or make a new physical ranged), you're not getting utility.

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We're two expansions in now and this philosophy has completely failed. They completely gutted all the nuance from Bard only to stare back with a Surprised Pikachu face when the community abandoned it wholesale. Machinist existed last expansion but it was pretty much the Dancer show by a country mile. Now we're in Endwalker and Bard utterly dominated until the 6.08 buffs made Dancer not a troll pick. Unfortunately, Machinist remains more or less worthless. So this is three years of them not being able to balance selfish/hybrid/buff jobs in the physical range role. And a good number of people don't want them to. They want old utility like Refresh and Palisade to come back.

What the devs envision just hasn't worked.

As someone who plays both Monk and Reaper (adoring the new job and Monks rework!!), it's weird seeing them pit against each other. Monk isn't even that much harder, and has the exact same 1-2-3 > build > spend > boom. It's just busier since they removed stances, imho. Either way it is a really weird take to say one should do less damage, when the current difference is minimal, because Mah Learning Curve.

The only jobs that needed serious TLC was PLD and DNC, and I hope those players feel better with their deserved buffs. Regardless, the gear funnel is a month in now. Next reset everyone should have access to a tome weapon (if you didn't get it already), and it's closing in on a "learn to play issue" if you can't hit dps checks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but baseline for all jobs currently is in line for all floor completions without a MNK or RPR in the party, so everything is pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Xiu_Ye

All i get from this is that the change monk needed was to be less punishing/easier. Saying a class doesnt deserve to do damage just feels like jealousy to me. Balance shouldnt be based on the difficulty of the job imo. If you want to play a harder job play it, but all jobs should be balanced at high end. (You can balance the average player by adjusting how punishing aspects of the class are to raise the floor of skill while not affecting the ceiling.) Also to be quite honest if you simply get full uptime on any class you will beat like 80% of the playerbase for this game because it is so incredibly casual friendly. (Not necessarily a bad thing) The issue I have is that at high end monk is just devastating now. And I expect it to get worse as people push monk optimization while reaper will probably have very little left to gain. I would like to have seen monk changed in making positionals less punishing or something to that tune than a potency buff. Also needed heavier drg/nin buffs and a more moderate sam buff.

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I just fundamentally disagree.
I think easier jobs should have a relatively stable dps and be a '' safe '' option.
Harder jobs should have both a higher skill ceiling and higher dps ceiling.

It sounds pretty logical to me.
I mean I could just as easily turn it around on you and say that what you're saying just sounds like you think people should be rewarded for less effort and not have to try.
In the end of the day I am talking about the Jobs potential not what the average player does or whatever.
If you want to have an easier option then I think that's fine and I don't even think it's a problem if they have high dps.
But I think that harder jobs should have the capacity to push higher at the cost of ease, I think that just makes for more interesting Job design too.

And I think most people would agree that it doesn't feel good to put more effort into something and get less or even the same out of it as someone who puts in less.
In the end of the day we're kinda all just monke lel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo .
But there's some logic in it I think and it's an understandable frustration and feeling.

Then why do play healer?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

And I think most people would agree that it doesn't feel good to put more effort into something and get less or even the same out of it as someone who puts in less.

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I mean, your wish has been granted since monk performs better than reaper in pure numbers. Has since EW's launch? Reaper is just the new hot thing so many people are taking it for a spin and playing very competitively with it.

I also think people who care about performance comparisons between jobs vs other people playing their job is not a case of "people should be rewarded for less effort and not have to try." It sounds like you want to be rewarded for playing what you perceive to be the more difficult job.

All jobs in this game are super monke, and the only skill comes from using your toolkit effectively within the environment of the encounter.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I mean, your wish has been granted since monk performs better than reaper in pure numbers. Has since EW's launch? Reaper is just the new hot thing so many people are taking it for a spin and playing very competitively with it.

I also think people who care about performance comparisons between jobs vs other people playing their job is not a case of "people should be rewarded for less effort and not have to try." It sounds like you want to be rewarded for playing what you perceive to be the more difficult job.

All jobs in this game are super monke, and the only skill comes from using your toolkit effectively within the environment of the encounter.

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MNK isn't the only other DPS that exists and I've said in the past that MNK is too strong too.

All Jobs are super monke on a base level yes but I am not rly talking about base level I am talking about pushing it higher.
RPR does have some more depth to it but the difference between a low and high skill RPR is still lower than it is for MNK and it's like that for a reason because yes RPR is easier to play even if MNK isn't hard to play at a baseline level of competency.
This goes beyond simple perception.
And some Jobs have a harder time using their skill set within fights that's why the difference between a bad, average and amazing BLM has been so incredibly high historically.

As a side note too if I was so biased here then I wouldn't be saying the things I've said about MNK because I've mained MNK since ARR.