UNDERCUTTING....

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

actualy, even then, some of the new items cost ALOT more then people realize

what you think is a markup, actualy isnt at all in alot of cases


some of the items needed to make darksteel/rose gold can only be vender bought...for 100k
so when that item is expensive, think about how many of those vender bought items were involved in making it

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well like I said I can understand for some of the new items, also I'm not sure if it is based off the rank of the hamlet or GC rank but those items from the vendor can drop to 50K

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Then one day someone comes along and sells the item for 1mil and you never get to sell it again...TRUE STORY

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Then I move on to the next item that nets me profit. Economy 101.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

well like I said I can understand for some of the new items, also I'm not sure if it is based off the rank of the hamlet or GC rank but those items from the vendor can drop to 50K

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hamlet drops are pretty rare, i sell mine for 1-2mil each, and those are just the tools

if you saw how much we could be making off the ore we turn in, the branches we turn in etc etc, then again, its not a markup to sell them for that much, its almost like taking a loss also by selling them so low
and yes, thats low for those items


you really have to be on the crafting/gathering end to understand alot of this, someone who hasnt touched them and doesnt play the market like we do only sees the price and assumes alot

I love how people keep saying "deal with it" or "stop whining". Everyone HAS dealt with it and nobody is saying that SE should do something about undercutting itself. The points that are trying to be made are that the current system is rewarding normal people for botting and punishing people that actually do the work by having an asinine system for selling and reselling. Things that take hours to produce or gather aren't being sold cheap because the person is nice or the person can make them cheaper. Its because people with bots spend little to no time doing the work to actually gather/produce said items so they could care less about how much they sell them for because they just need to make room to sell more. Most of us have had to "deal with it" and HAVE, and are still rich as a result. I'm just sick of spending so much time "dealing with it" in the wards by repricing things to make room on my retainers and I don't want new players to just have to "deal with it". The goal here is to either encourage SE to crack down on bots, make a more streamlined market system or...hopefully both. Us players are responsible right now for having these discussions as we are largely responsible for how this game turns out. By the time 2.0 hits, these issues need to be addressed or people are going to say "they had a year+ to iron out these kinks and a whole player base full of feedback that told new players to just deal with it". I want this game to be as great as it can be!

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Originally Posted by Themule

I love how people keep saying "deal with it" or "stop whining". Everyone HAS dealt with it and nobody is saying that SE should do something about undercutting itself. The points that are trying to be made are that the current system is rewarding normal people for botting and punishing people that actually do the work by having an asinine system for selling and reselling. Things that take hours to produce or gather aren't being sold cheap because the person is nice or the person can make them cheaper. Its because people with bots spend little to no time doing the work to actually gather/produce said items. Most of us have had to "deal with it" and have and are still rich as a result. I'm just sick of spending so much time "dealing with it" in the wards by repricing things to make room on my retainers.

The goal here is to either encourage SE to crack down on bots, make a more streamlined market system or...hopefully both. By the time 2.0 hits, these issues need to be addressed or people are going to say "they had a year+ to iron out these kinks and a whole player base full of feedback that told new players to just deal with it". I want this game to be as great as it can be!

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QFT, SE just needs to add fishable monsters and aggro mobs between and near gathering nodes that force players to use the stealth function (something a bot could'nt recognize) to fix gathering bot issues.

As far as leveling bots and farming bots i'm sure a similarly easy method could be implemented but I havn't thought of one yet.

You do realise that the kind of price fixing (cartel) a lot of you are describing in wanting stable prices is forbidden in most civilized countries outside of "special" circumstances with regards to the consumer markets?

Not to mention, you're looking only at the gatherer/crafter side of things, the part of the game population that isn't enjoying that part, can't as easily burn through gil as those of us who craft/gather, and artificially high-kept prices would make it harder for them to get in. It would certainly suck for those who might pick up the game post 2.0 (assuming any do), and want to roll on an established server if prices were artifically kept high. Of course, you could argue that they can get into crafting/gathering as well, which they could do, which would make it even harder for you to make money.

You want more money for your stuff? differentiate your merchandise, make HQs, materia multimelds, make something that makes YOUR stuff worth more than everyone else.

This is how the market works, the buyers will go for the ones who sell the cheapest, or the best, or the ones that they like (branding). You can go Harrods, you can go Walmart, or you can look for niches or something in between.

And yes, I DO actually have a degree in economy, and I DO have bot/min 50, along with several crafts.
(although I must admit, I do lean towards Keynesian economics, which to a certain extent invalidates my entire argument :P)


edit: I fully agree on measurements needed to deal with botting though, but that's not what the topic title talks about!

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Originally Posted by Matsume

QFT, SE just needs to add fishable monsters and aggro mobs between and near gathering nodes that force players to use the stealth function (something a bot could'nt recognize) to fix gathering bot issues.

As far as leveling bots and farming bots i'm sure a similarly easy method could be implemented but I havn't thought of one yet.

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agro mobs at gathering points wont stop the new hack/bot ive seen people using lately

one that lets them gather the same node over and over again til it despawns

theyd only need find that 1 noed that isnt in agro range, and refind it every hour or so

and putting agro mobs at EVERY node would just annoy all crafters too much

Am i the only one who thinks that this thread wouldn't exist if people would have a basic understanding of whats going on in the markets?

/facepalm

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Originally Posted by DarkDepravity

You do realise that the kind of price fixing (cartel) a lot of you are describing in wanting stable prices is forbidden in most civilized countries outside of "special" circumstances with regards to the consumer markets?

Not to mention, you're looking only at the gatherer/crafter side of things, the part of the game population that isn't enjoying that part, can't as easily burn through gil as those of us who craft/gather, and artificially high-kept prices would make it harder for them to get in. It would certainly suck for those who might pick up the game post 2.0 (assuming any do), and want to roll on an established server if prices were artifically kept high. Of course, you could argue that they can get into crafting/gathering as well, which they could do, which would make it even harder for you to make money.

You want more money for your stuff? differentiate your merchandise, make HQs, materia multimelds, make something that makes YOUR stuff worth more than everyone else.

This is how the market works, the buyers will go for the ones who sell the cheapest, or the best, or the ones that they like (branding). You can go Harrods, you can go Walmart, or you can look for niches or something in between.

And yes, I DO actually have a degree in economy, and I DO have bot/min 50, along with several crafts.
(although I must admit, I do lean towards Keynesian economics, which to a certain extent invalidates my entire argument :P)


edit: I fully agree on measurements needed to deal with botting though, but that's not what the topic title talks about!

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This is the greatest part of your post, you admit to the irony and in a sense invalidate what you just have said.

I'll spare you the leson in economics but for the sake of others reading, Keynesian Economics supports the idea of government intervention to stabilize the prices of certain goods and services that can lead to innefficient macroeconomic outcomes. And the fact that Keynesian economics was the standard economic model during the latter part of the Great Depression, World War II, Post War Economic Expansion and our current Global Financial Crisis makes eroneous your statement that "stable prices is forbidden in most civilzed countries"

Hell, China abuses Free Trade by artifically undervaluing the Yuan so as to increase exports by dereasing the price of their products relative to other countries.

But let's not get into that...

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

agro mobs at gathering points wont stop the new hack/bot ive seen people using lately

one that lets them gather the same node over and over again til it despawns

theyd only need find that 1 noed that isnt in agro range, and refind it every hour or so

and putting agro mobs at EVERY node would just annoy all crafters too much

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I hope you're kidding...

I haven't yet seen this bot, and was simply surprised by the gathering bots however innefficient they may be. If this truly is the case I wouldn't be surprised to see teleport bots coupled with this mining hack that just teleports players to a new node then mines til it's done...

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Originally Posted by VytasBismarck

Am i the only one who thinks that this thread wouldn't exist if people would have a basic understanding of whats going on in the markets?

/facepalm

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i personaly love the expert opiions coming in of people who dont craft or gather who think they know whats going on

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

hamlet drops are pretty rare, i sell mine for 1-2mil each, and those are just the tools

if you saw how much we could be making off the ore we turn in, the branches we turn in etc etc, then again, its not a markup to sell them for that much, its almost like taking a loss also by selling them so low
and yes, thats low for those items


you really have to be on the crafting/gathering end to understand alot of this, someone who hasnt touched them and doesnt play the market like we do only sees the price and assumes alot

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not sure what point you are trying to make I agree with you about the new items, what im specifically talking about are some of the other stuff that obviously does not cost a lot to make but yet is over priced. I dont have to be a crafter or gatherer (yet been working on gathering now) to see how much materials cost.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

not sure what point you are trying to make I agree with you about the new items, what im specifically talking about are some of the other stuff that obviously does not cost a lot to make but yet is over priced. I dont have to be a crafter or gatherer (yet been working on gathering now) to see how much materials cost.

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youd think some of it is alot

but alot of the time, the price is actualy lower then the cost to make it even then, until your in the mix tyring to do it, you may not even notice or understand this

an item for 50k sounds like alot, but if that item takes 60k to make, its not expensive at all, its taking a loss

and on 99% of items being sold, this is usualy the case

those who dont craft and gather will claim up and down they are still being overcharged and it isnt the case, but they seriously are clueless on it cuz they just want the best deal anyway

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Originally Posted by Krausus

not sure what point you are trying to make I agree with you about the new items, what im specifically talking about are some of the other stuff that obviously does not cost a lot to make but yet is over priced. I dont have to be a crafter or gatherer (yet been working on gathering now) to see how much materials cost.

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I've noticed crafters abusing and taking advantage of lack of competition by overpricing items that shouldn't cost as much to produce. On my server for example, a felt cavaliers hat will cost you 60-100K. Other end game mage items all cost the same, and often there is no one selling these items...

lol you guys gonna be in for a world of hurt when 2.0 hits and its like 2-3k more crafters on your server and everything is under priced cause its so much of it :)

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I've noticed crafters abusing and taking advantage of lack of competition by overpricing items that shouldn't cost as much to produce. On my server for example, a felt cavaliers hat will cost you 60-100K. Other end game mage items all cost the same, and often there is no one selling these items...

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that would be one of the few items actualy marked up

but then look at the price history to see if anyones bought it

and for those who dont realize, that basicaly cost 25-30k to make, 60k isnt really bad price for it if you want to save time

if you care more about money and not time, youd go buy the materials and find a crafter(in which case you may or may not have to pay a service fee on top of it too)


but what happens when more people start selling these....this i the problem we come to

your 25k to make item, drops in price, to 15k, now you cant make it without taking a loss, and no one makes them anymore, and therefore people thatw ant them cant even get them


sure they can still buy the mats to make the item, but they wont, because they will have to pay more, and why should they pay more then what people used to sell the item at, they will expect that 15k price to return, and not buy the materials for 25k unless they are desperate(especialy cuz they may end up paying as much as 50-60k if they dont have a friend who can make it)

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Originally Posted by Firon

lol you guys gonna be in for a world of hurt when 2.0 hits and its like 2-3k more crafters on your server and everything is under priced cause its so much of it :)

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i wont be, i gave up crafting for profit a long time ago

now i just gather and sell all my drops, and im rich :D

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

youd think some of it is alot

but alot of the time, the price is actualy lower then the cost to make it even then, until your in the mix tyring to do it, you may not even notice or understand this

an item for 50k sounds like alot, but if that item takes 60k to make, its not expensive at all, its taking a loss

and on 99% of items being sold, this is usualy the case

those who dont craft and gather will claim up and down they are still being overcharged and it isnt the case, but they seriously are clueless on it cuz they just want the best deal anyway

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I was specifically talking about my server which I mentioned earlier where it doesnt cost 60k to make low level gear more like 8-10k yet more often then not you see it selling for around 80-100k

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Originally Posted by Krausus

I was specifically talking about my server which I mentioned earlier where it doesnt cost 60k to make low level gear more like 8-10k yet more often then not you see it selling for around 80-100k

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low level gear has always been an oddity that is overpriced since no one wants to make it, so those who do, try to overcharge, and then it never sells

remember, the price of an item is what people have paid for it, not just what its up for in the wards

just because you see 20 listings for 60k, doesnt mean its a 60k item, look at the price history and it may tell you that they have never sold

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Originally Posted by Firon

lol you guys gonna be in for a world of hurt when 2.0 hits and its like 2-3k more crafters on your server and everything is under priced cause its so much of it :)

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more competition means an increase in supply of goods forcing prices to drop. sounds to me it would be better for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Achtzen

more competition means an increase in supply of goods forcing prices to drop. sounds to me it would be better for everyone.

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prices dropping isnt a good thing unless you dont crafter or gather

it also devalues what everyones money is worth

people who want a game economy are against across the board price drops because then the economy ceases to exist when everything cost nothing

Either crack down on bots or make the system less time consuming to reprice things...or, ideally, both. All I originally said was that undercutting is getting really annoying. Its not because I can't make a profit, its because more and more players are botting which leads to massive undercutting which makes it a real pain to try to sell things over and over with the current UI. If you havn't noticed how many people are botting to take the place of actually playing the supply side of this game (which is actually very well done for once) then you either aren't a gatherer or crafter or you havn't been paying attention. The trend is increasing exponentially because there is almost no risk in doing it. This is annoying and needs to be addressed before 2.0.
Everyone assumes that anyone annoyed by undercutting is advocating artificial price hikes and whining about not being able to make money. We aren't. Just stop the people that are able to produce things for little to no work (people using bots) and make the system for selling things attractive to people who do want to do the work. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Achtzen

more competition means an increase in supply of goods forcing prices to drop. sounds to me it would be better for everyone.

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One of the funny things is i know a lot of crafters/gathers are just greedy i seen them over price stuff npc's sells and try to sell it for more than that. Like on Sarge i seen some idiots trying to get ppl over by selling alumen for 1.5k a pop when npc sells it for 300g.

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Originally Posted by Firon

One of the funny things is i know a lot of crafters/gathers are just greedy i seen them over price stuff npc's sells and try to sell it for more than that. Like on Sarge i seen some idiots trying to get ppl over by selling alumen for 1.5k a pop when npc sells it for 300g.

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alumen for 1.5k is retarded?

usualy what you see is crimson crayfish overpriced, they sell for 100 from an npc, but can sell to others for up to 300-500

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Wow LOL I never thought I would see the day when people are happy and glad for undercutting. Well..KumaAkuma you made some great points at least...

I just hope in 2.0 they get rid of showing the price...

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This is the FFXIV community..

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

prices dropping isnt a good thing unless you dont crafter or gather

it also devalues what everyones money is worth

people who want a game economy are against across the board price drops because then the economy ceases to exist when everything cost nothing

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it would value normal quality items at thier equilibrium price but the demand for higher quality items will increase thus its price will be higher.
everything won't cost nothing. crafters and gatherer's know what thier input costs are for items they make and will adjust thier prices accordingly. profit is still profit no matter how small it is. if you want to make a significantly higher profit the risk involved lies in crafting hq items.

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Originally Posted by Achtzen

it would value normal quality items at thier equilibrium price but the demand for higher quality items will increase thus its price will be higher.
everything won't cost nothing. crafters and gatherer's know what thier input costs are for items they make and will adjust thier prices accordingly. profit is still profit no matter how small it is. if you want to make a significantly higher profit the risk involved lies in crafting hq items.

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the problem is, prices going down at this point = bad

what we have going on is the cost to make an item, is much higher then it is to sell an item in 99% of the items out there
the demand for certain gathered items is high enough to justify the prices some of them sell for, therefore they arnet going down anytime soon


so where do you draw the line? with all the gil some of us have going around, do we really want to see a price drop to the point where we can buy everything we ever want ever just buy having a few million gil, cuz thats what itl come to

and if the prices go too low, people stop gathering, cuz why gather if its not worth the time anymore
why craft if you cant sell it for a reasonable price

people stop getting the mats, then people stop selling the gear cuz they arent making it

and then it all just stops, until that 1 person goes back in and starts to try to make a fortune on it and it starts all over again


what we need is more stability, NOT price drops, profit is what the system is about, trying to tell people otherwise is just insane

and then it all just stops...which in this case means game over for ff xiv. why don't people see this? Mass undercutting is a symptom of something that could really screw this game up.

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Originally Posted by Themule

and then it all just stops...which in this case means game over for ff xiv. why don't people see this?

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some people dont want to see it, they just think of how they can spend less money to get more instead

Business as usual just like in rl

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

alumen for 1.5k is retarded?

usualy what you see is crimson crayfish overpriced, they sell for 100 from an npc, but can sell to others for up to 300-500

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YO DUDE WTF THAT'S A SECRET

Undercutting and people like Wolfie who purposefully try to 'drive people out of business' is why the economy is fucked up on even low level items. Stability is what's needed. For example my current skill up items are silver needles, I can make 10k on it, why in the fuck are you going to undercut to 2k? Especially when the last 20 or so sales were 10k solid for a month?

"Moving onto the next item to screw up" isn't economics 101, it's being an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Undercutting and people like Wolfie who purposefully try to 'drive people out of business' is why the economy is fucked up on even low level items. Stability is what's needed. For example my current skill up items are silver needles, I can make 10k on it, why in the fuck are you going to undercut to 2k? Especially when the last 20 or so sales were 10k solid for a month?

"Moving onto the next item to screw up" isn't economics 101, it's being an idiot.

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QFT, i just didn't even want to dignify that response with an answer

I want to know what a good profit is then.
if you farm for 1 hour, how much should you make?
usually everything that takes 1 hour to get a stack of 99 high lvl mats sells for 200k a stack. is that fair for time?
what is your hour worth in the game. gathering that same mat for 2 hours will get you a +1 tool, or a tier 4 stat materia.
is that worth 2 hours to you?
what is my time worth getting all crafts and gathering jobs to 50?
If i can make and sell 5 +1 items a night for 700k a piece with only spending 500k for the +1 mats for all 5 or 2.5 hours of farming for them, is that fair?
Its super simple.,
10 times the selling to an NPC price
or
Double what the NPC sells for
And,
10 times the price if its HQ

If i cant make 200k an hour farming or crafting, there is no point.
But now that im 50 cap all, making 500k to 1m an hour is more common.
thanks for your time

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Originally Posted by Firon

One of the funny things is i know a lot of crafters/gathers are just greedy i seen them over price stuff npc's sells and try to sell it for more than that. Like on Sarge i seen some idiots trying to get ppl over by selling alumen for 1.5k a pop when npc sells it for 300g.

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then its the buyer's fault for not checking and buying at that price

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I wouldn't mind undercutting if there was a minimum amount you could undercut by. If I want to sell something for 20k and someone else is willing to take 15k for it, that's fine. But 19,999? Come on now.

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That's a standard practice of mine. It saves the buyer a gil and reduces tax by one too. Strangely some people appear to not be content with that and would prefer for someone to come along later and place the item up for one gil more so they can purchase that instead and claim the other as undercutting by a gil.

Now there's a spin on the perspective.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I've noticed crafters abusing and taking advantage of lack of competition by overpricing items that shouldn't cost as much to produce. On my server for example, a felt cavaliers hat will cost you 60-100K. Other end game mage items all cost the same, and often there is no one selling these items...

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I sell these for 700k +1's which is undercutting by 70-200k usually

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Originally Posted by Green_and_a_Half

I sell these for 700k +1's which is undercutting by 70-200k usually

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I don't give a rat's tail for other peoples +1's. The people buying them are fools and tools you and I both know it that's why you're profiting off of them. As far as your previous post is concerned, with one lvl 50 i can make over 1mil an hour and you know exactly what i'm talking about. You don't need 50 everything to make that kind of gil, just ONE job at lvl 50.

Edit: before ppl started undercutting, that 1mil an hour was actually 2mil an hour

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

the problem is, prices going down at this point = bad

what we have going on is the cost to make an item, is much higher then it is to sell an item in 99% of the items out there
the demand for certain gathered items is high enough to justify the prices some of them sell for, therefore they arnet going down anytime soon


so where do you draw the line? with all the gil some of us have going around, do we really want to see a price drop to the point where we can buy everything we ever want ever just buy having a few million gil, cuz thats what itl come to

and if the prices go too low, people stop gathering, cuz why gather if its not worth the time anymore
why craft if you cant sell it for a reasonable price

people stop getting the mats, then people stop selling the gear cuz they arent making it

and then it all just stops, until that 1 person goes back in and starts to try to make a fortune on it and it starts all over again


what we need is more stability, NOT price drops, profit is what the system is about, trying to tell people otherwise is just insane

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if someone is actually spending the gil to make the lower priced item then its on them that thier wasting thier gil.

i'm sure other crafters that know how markets work feel the same way. there is a built in mechanism for prices that happens both real world and this world. if a person sees no chance for profit in any given item they simply wont craft it. and if they do then they are insane.

the prices will regulate themselves. its how the markets work. an increase in supply will always drive prices down if demand is at or below equilibrium.

you understand how they work, its just that the built in mechanism for stability is already there but i don't think you see it.

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I don't give a rat's tail for other peoples +1's. The people buying them are fools and tools you and I both know it that's why you're profiting off of them. As far as your previous post is concerned, with one lvl 50 i can make over 1mil an hour and you know exactly what i'm talking about. You don't need 50 everything to make that kind of gil, just ONE job at lvl 50.

Edit: before ppl started undercutting, that 1mil an hour was actually 2mil an hour

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was agreeing
Im not going to sell +1's for 400k less then what people are buying that item for, but at the same time, i dont feel 800k profit off one item is fair either,
500k :) is fine with my morals.
as far as all 50s. was making a point of what is that time worth, before good leves, took 60 hours to grind a craft to 50 and now its still high at around 36 hours.
If the profit of making items gets too low from undercutting, i stop making them.


If im reading you right,
you would need a 50 craft, 40 craft and 35 miner to make that cash
i dont know of any solo 50 craft that can make all their own mats and +1 the final item without needed a few other things

What craft to you have at 50? only see 29 weaver>< mule?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Undercutting and people like Wolfie who purposefully try to 'drive people out of business' is why the economy is fucked up on even low level items. Stability is what's needed. For example my current skill up items are silver needles, I can make 10k on it, why in the fuck are you going to undercut to 2k? Especially when the last 20 or so sales were 10k solid for a month?

"Moving onto the next item to screw up" isn't economics 101, it's being an idiot.

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Honestly, I think people are confusing undercutting and competition. If someone can provide the same good at a cheaper price its competition. If they are gathering thier own materials and not buying from the markets then they can sell at a lower price. everything they make will be profit. its a benefit of having a gathering class to gather the materials you need for crafting.

I know i would sell at a lower price if i gathered my own materials or my the input costs of bought items for any craftable item was low.

or you can camp the markets and buy low priced items and sell them at higher prices like others said if you have the gil resources to do it. its basically artificially increasing demand by removing some of the supply.