SE are leaving BLM to rot by giving SMN and RDM even more utility

Underestimate Red Mage mobility? Is that the narrative I'm being fed now? 4 years of "Red Mage is the most mobile caster because of dualcast" and now I'm being gaslit about underestimating it?

Red Mage is having its costs and generation reduced in impressively equal measure. You will only be in slightly more often than before, though the increase in ability to bank melee combos will help a bit. That's just it though, melee combos require melee range which isn't always afforded to casters in relevant (Savage/Ultimate) content. The numbers as we have them show E Reprise to be worse than worthless, costing 1/10 of a melee combo but being several potency per second below cast-dualcast (as opposed to now where E Reprise is slightly ahead of cast-dualcast and largely behind melee combo, where it should be).

Jump back is not a mobility utility. The animation is too long too effectively escape aoes as prescribed, and the length of the jump is so long that it's an active danger to use more often than not. Using cast-dualcast you can preposition anywhere you'd need displacement to take you. I'm not kidding when I say that the equalization of displacement and engagement is all the convincing I needed to delete displacement from my bars.

CaC x2 is a good mobility tool in the right situations though. More than that it's probably one of the best answers to anti knockback that are afforded to casters.

As for this "you can chain raise 6 times" business...sure, I guess in an optimal environment you CAN, but how often are you in an optimal environment where you need 6 Raises? More realistically you'll get 3 (dualcast > swiftcast > dualcast, 12.5s assuming base gcd to do this) then get killed because one of the people you raised was the main tank and you have the boss aiming at you.

Also raise is a funny utility in TEA given how useless it can be there. Even for "seeing the next mechanic" purposes...well, die in brute justice phase and you lose a buff needed to complete the phase unless you died in the small window you're without a buff. TEA is full of places where raise is almost invalid as a concept. Not that it IS useless, but there are plenty of places where it's not good enough at dragging people back to their feet in time or you lose something you needed desperately to even be able to continue.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Underestimate Red Mage mobility? Is that the narrative I'm being fed now? 4 years of "Red Mage is the most mobile caster because of dualcast" and now I'm being gaslit about underestimating it?

Red Mage is having its costs and generation reduced in impressively equal measure. You will only be in slightly more often than before, though the increase in ability to bank melee combos will help a bit. That's just it though, melee combos require melee range which isn't always afforded to casters in relevant (Savage/Ultimate) content. The numbers as we have them show E Reprise to be worse than worthless, costing 1/10 of a melee combo but being several potency per second below cast-dualcast (as opposed to now where E Reprise is slightly ahead of cast-dualcast and largely behind melee combo, where it should be).

Jump back is not a mobility utility. The animation is too long too effectively escape aoes as prescribed, and the length of the jump is so long that it's an active danger to use more often than not. Using cast-dualcast you can preposition anywhere you'd need displacement to take you. I'm not kidding when I say that the equalization of displacement and engagement is all the convincing I needed to delete displacement from my bars.

CaC x2 is a good mobility tool in the right situations though. More than that it's probably one of the best answers to anti knockback that are afforded to casters.

As for this "you can chain raise 6 times" business...sure, I guess in an optimal environment you CAN, but how often are you in an optimal environment where you need 6 Raises? More realistically you'll get 3 (dualcast > swiftcast > dualcast, 12.5s assuming base gcd to do this) then get killed because one of the people you raised was the main tank and you have the boss aiming at you.

Also raise is a funny utility in TEA given how useless it can be there. Even for "seeing the next mechanic" purposes...well, die in brute justice phase and you lose a buff needed to complete the phase unless you died in the small window you're without a buff. TEA is full of places where raise is almost invalid as a concept. Not that it IS useless, but there are plenty of places where it's not good enough at dragging people back to their feet in time or you lose something you needed desperately to even be able to continue.

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Also the issue with RDM mobility is that even if on paper is 50% of the time free movement, on reality is after each 2.4 seconds of cast you get 2.4 seconds of movement which is NOT the same when certain mechanics forces you to move for more than that. A boss doing for example the quick 360º death beam rotation basically forces a RDM to keep running and the only options rely on having enough mana to do the enchanted melee combo meanwhile or being able to use reprise withouth missalign the melee combo window (besides ogcds of course). So beyond those 2 seconds and half, you rely on having especific circunstances so that RDM dps doesnt plummet hard, while the other casters have bigger movement windows even if their total time per minute is lower.

For example if a BLM can move freely for 15 seconds per minute, a RDM can move 30 seconds per minute, but the difference is that BLM can use those 15 seconds all at once, while RDM movement is gated behind a previous cast and only has 2.4 seconds of total time before they are forced to cast again or skip damage completely. And unless things change, Reprise in EW is gonna be quite crappy so theres even less options

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Also the issue with RDM mobility is that even if on paper is 50% of the time free movement, on reality is after each 2.4 seconds of cast you get 2.4 seconds of movement which is NOT the same when certain mechanics forces you to move for more than that. A boss doing for example the quick 360º death beam rotation basically forces a RDM to keep running and the only options rely on having enough mana to do the enchanted melee combo meanwhile or being able to use reprise withouth missalign the melee combo window (besides ogcds of course). So beyond those 2 seconds and half, you rely on having especific circunstances so that RDM dps doesnt plummet hard, while the other casters have bigger movement windows even if their total time per minute is lower.

For example if a BLM can move freely for 15 seconds per minute, a RDM can move 30 seconds per minute, but the difference is that BLM can use those 15 seconds all at once, while RDM movement is gated behind a previous cast and only has 2.4 seconds of total time before they are forced to cast again or skip damage completely. And unless things change, Reprise in EW is gonna be quite crappy so theres even less options

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Exactly. Any pantokrator type mechanic is hell for a Red Mage. Other worthy mentions are eruption baiting in UWU and, if your group hates you, being the backup Twintania Liquid Hell baiter in UCoB. I'm not going to say Red Mage's mobility is inferior to the other casters in any way, Dualcast is a flavor that allows Red Mages the ability to preposition basically any time they need for instance, and when Endwalker hits Red Mage will be able to melee combo for 12.7 second of instant cast attacks with only 5.2 of those seconds being melee range mandated. Like any caster, one's resources need to be planned against the fight's script and plans need to be made accordingly. That is, in my opinion, the fun of playing caster.

I apologize for the whole "gaslit" comment to remiff, that was rude of me to assert. I'm just coming off of a long time of being told how mobile Red Mage is compared to the other casters like dualcast is something we prompt with no requirements.

I really hope this is bait. People need to understand that Black Mage is the selfish DPS of casters along side Machinist for Ranged Physical and Samurai for Melee. Selfish DPS means you have the highest DPS potential with no utility tax. SMN and RDM have utility tax. Their DPS is gutted slightly due to the amount of raid utility they provide. Your utility as a BLM is making the boss die faster.

but the issue rn is that the rdm and creeping up in pdps potency wise (and embolden change). its blurring the lines for being taxed on dps for utility.
previously, if blm can doing 100, rdm does about 65 with utility. but its getting close that rdm is doing 85-90 with utility.

once ew release and we get factual numbers then we can see if there is really a problem. it just that rn, looking at the final patch note, it doesnt feel right when looking at rdm potency and blm potency.

i just hope its not back to sb raiding where blm is pretty much left out of the party.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Exactly. Any pantokrator type mechanic is hell for a Red Mage...

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Exactly. SMN has literal entire sections of its rotation, up to 15s and 20s every other minute (DWT/FBT) where it's freely mobile as of ShB. If it ever needed to do unplanned/unskilled movement, the difference between ruin 3 and ruin 2 was only 40 potency. The new version is estimated to have around 85% mobility. RDM has only been mobile in short bursts and is only mobile with very finicky timing. BLM has always been the most mobile (fastest point to point movement) but suffers under effects like Umbra's brambles where it can't pass over a void zone and has other considerations, such as how punishing clipping a GCD is. RDM's generally mobile but specifically immobile such as in periods of high movement. Without Reprise, it has no ad hoc movement. However, its current changes to Manafication and how the bar stacks means Reprise is going to be in a similar place as Ruin 2 versus 3. Oddly, BLM will end up being the least mobile in EW content despite 2 stacks of triplecast now, allowing you to strategically save it without overcapping the timer. Though BLM is just in a generally bad position right now due to its lack of any utility beyond Addle and its old ARR design is still a major component of the class, holding it back just like greased lightning.

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Originally Posted by Mhiro

I really hope this is bait. People need to understand that Black Mage is the selfish DPS of casters along side Machinist for Ranged Physical and Samurai for Melee. Selfish DPS means you have the highest DPS potential with no utility tax. SMN and RDM have utility tax. Their DPS is gutted slightly due to the amount of raid utility they provide. Your utility as a BLM is making the boss die faster.

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Except it's not. See, SAM and MCH don't give up any true utility. To define, party buffs are called utility, but 'true' utility in this case would be things that don't specifically impact the outgoing damage of the party. Res utility is in the same vein as tactician. Imagine if MCH didn't have Tactician or SAM didn't have Feint. BLM stands alone in that it's missing core 'true' utility other classes provide.

This problem is, again, getting worse. RDM is getting a literal tactician. Even SMN has nothing like this. This isn't like Mantra on MNK. This is a straight up 10 second/10% damage reduction AoE barrier that will make progging orders of magnitude easier. It is the only reason SMN has a chance to not be worse DPS than RDM, because if RDM isn't being kicked in the teeth due to having this level of party support, then there is literally never a reason to bring any caster except RDM for the caster slot. It would render BLM as 4th slot/omni DPS only by itself.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Without Reprise, it has no ad hoc movement. However, its current changes to Manafication and how the bar stacks means Reprise is going to be in a similar place as Ruin 2 versus 3..

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Can I ask you to elaborate on this point? Enchanted Reprise as I'm reading it in the live notes is terrible. It costs 10 mana (5/5) which is 1/10 of a melee combo; it has less potency per second than the bread and butter spell combo (BnB is 138.4 roughly, Reprise is 132) meaning using it is a loss over the BnB combo, which translates to the Potency Per Mana dropping harder than a rock (PPM is currently ~16.9 based on the burst's PPS vs the BnB's. Reprise's PPM is -8.13).

The Acceleration changes are really good as a trade-off, acting as a swiftcast with two charges. I super highly approve of that, Red Mage will be able to answer a lot more situations than before because of that bankable mobility.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Can I ask you to elaborate on this point? Enchanted Reprise as I'm reading it in the live notes is terrible. It costs 10 mana (5/5) which is 1/10 of a melee combo; it has less potency per second than the bread and butter spell combo (BnB is 138.4 roughly, Reprise is 132) meaning using it is a loss over the BnB combo, which translates to the Potency Per Mana dropping harder than a rock (PPM is currently ~16.9 based on the burst's PPS vs the BnB's. Reprise's PPM is -8.13).

The Acceleration changes are really good as a trade-off, acting as a swiftcast with two charges. I super highly approve of that, Red Mage will be able to answer a lot more situations than before because of that bankable mobility.

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Basically, its potency loss is going to be significant, but if you have to do it, it's fine because your burst window will stay rock solid due to Manafication being +50/50 black/white mana instead of doubling mana. The old rotation over-ran manafication by 3 GCDs of reprise (as in, you could use 3 reprises per 2 minutes for 'free').

Now, if we look at the potency value, a reprise will set you back (220 + 290 + 470 + 580 + 680 + 750 ) / 10 / 6 or ~50 potency. /10 because it's 1/10nth a burst, and /6 because it's over 6 GCDs and not literally all at once. If we want to be more precise, we have to use per second time tables which would give us 23 potency per second or about 57.5 potency in lost potency per standard GCD.

What this means is while, yes, it's delaying your burst, it's not delaying your planned burst and the drop is mostly dropping from 500 potency per GCD over 6 GCDs by mis-spending it (slightly more per second) down to 330 for the reprise itself. Your baseline rotation also averages 345 potency per GCD (in endwalker) and that will likewise incur another knockon, but the end effect is you're losing under 100 potency to blow a reprise unplanned without disrupting your burst window.

This gets substantially worse if you lose an entire burst phase because of the delay or parts of it due to opportunity cost, but that's not terribly important for average play. This is complicated because the burst phase is competing against 330 potency, not 0 potency. So the actual value compresses back down into a manageable range, but as far as a rough guess, a single reprise is costing you somewhere safely between 40 and 100 potency in opportunity cost, which is a far cry from Scathe costing you several hundred if we were to look at what BLM is losing.

Obviously this isn't desirable in any sense of the word. It's better to swiftcast out a clipped verthunder 3 than it is to cast a reprise, but needs must and all.

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Originally Posted by Mhiro

I really hope this is bait. People need to understand that Black Mage is the selfish DPS of casters along side Machinist for Ranged Physical and Samurai for Melee. Selfish DPS means you have the highest DPS potential with no utility tax. SMN and RDM have utility tax. Their DPS is gutted slightly due to the amount of raid utility they provide. Your utility as a BLM is making the boss die faster.

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truth be told it is bait. The op has multiple accounts. One for BLM and one for DRK. they all have zzz in there names

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

but the issue rn is that the rdm and creeping up in pdps potency wise (and embolden change). its blurring the lines for being taxed on dps for utility.
previously, if blm can doing 100, rdm does about 65 with utility. but its getting close that rdm is doing 85-90 with utility.

once ew release and we get factual numbers then we can see if there is really a problem. it just that rn, looking at the final patch note, it doesnt feel right when looking at rdm potency and blm potency.

i just hope its not back to sb raiding where blm is pretty much left out of the party.

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But RDM doesn't have the damage multipliers BLM does with AF and enochian

I attribute RDMs barrier to the barriers that ranged physical. They are nice to have but in the long run they just won't be used and become unnecessary with contributing healers and tanks who can do it without any sort of sacrifice typically. For utility, between Sharpcasts, Triple Casts, Swift Casts and Polygots there is a lot of movement in BLM too. SMN can move, sure, but they also have to weave oGCDs that BLM has minimal of.

At this point in game history, casters have largely become a mindset and playstyle change that a player just needs to attune to and adjust for.

I'm very pleased with the changes to black mage. I always hated losing enochian right after I popped it and then waiting for the cool down. I think BLM is just right so that if you drop AF/UI you just pick up the rotation again. Seems to me like every DPS class trades utility and damage.

BLM is insanely fun and does big numbers. Its not going anywhere.

Two stock of triple cast and good old swiftcast for back up, all on 60 second cd.
That's a hell of a lot of instant casts.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

Two stock of triple cast and good old swiftcast for back up, all on 60 second cd.
That's a hell of a lot of instant casts.

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Not to mention Firestarter, Polyglots, and Thunderstorm (+Sharpcast). And while you may lose some uptime the other casters don't have Aetherial Manipulation or Between the Lines which allows for non-enemy target and faster movement (outside of Sprint).

(And Scathe, for as little damage as it does it is still something and instant cast.)

A well-strategized BLM has a hell of a movement kit.