Stop the WoWificaton (ui mods)

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Just like you can spin my post however you see fit for your knee-jerk reaction to skimming it.

How can SE know people are running addons without:

A) User speaking about using the addon in chat.
B) Running a scanner, which is a questionable move.
C) The addon gives a clear advantage, thus being detectable by other players and actions in the game. For instance: parser just reads game data, so it does not give any advantage in the moment to the player. It cannot be used to leverage a win over another player who is not using it. This, versus a script that automates your character performance, like how bots operate.

Repeating it clearly in a little list just so I am not misinterpreted again. Love and light.

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People stream daily on twitch and youtube with these addons. All they have to do is tune in and they will see them. I am sure they are already 100% aware as they have banned people as a result. Keep using your addons. I hope you get the ban you deserve.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

You shift from "How are you affected by the people who don't like mods" (as if school yard level reversing is a got 'em) to shifting to speculation of SE's reaction - one has nothing to do with the other.

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Because they have no argument. They need to accept that SE isn't going to do anything about it because they can't scan our computers to find it.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Some UI mods are distributed through XIVlauncher, which also gives players access to a number of other features that give clear advantages. Some examples:

- Allows you to see player hitbox
- Can automatically find and relay hunt mobs
- Condenses combos to one button
- Allows macros to be daisy-chained
- Allows mouseover targeting without macro delay
- Gives player realtime information about mobs in PoTD
- Shows different damage types visually (magic/physical))

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I don't engange in any hardcore content, but I had my LB insta silenced a couple of weeks ago and I haven't touched PvP since. I've fled WoW when Shadowmeld became obselete from the use of addons.

Stop whiteknighting for political progaganda machine abusers that aggressively breaking TOS. If you do it in your privacy, fine. But don't advertise it to the same crowd that killed WoW.

If you defend Addons, fine. But these people hurt users too. Yoshida clearly pointed out he doesn't want to get involved, but clearly disresepectful millionaires see that as an invitation to force his hand.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

People stream daily on twitch and youtube with these addons. All they have to do is tune in and they will see them. I am sure they are already 100% aware as they have banned people already as a result. Keep using your addons. I hope you get the ban you deserve.

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That is literally like what 0.1% of the people who may be using an addon. Yeah that's def going to solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

That is literally like what 0.1% of the people who may be using an addon. Yeah that's def going to solve the problem.

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If they start banning these people you will see things clean up very quickly. Fear works wonders.

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Originally Posted by Hoehenflug

Stop whiteknighting for political progaganda machine abusers

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...I'm sorry, what?

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If they start banning these people you will see things clean up very quickly. Fear works wonders.

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If the way they're "finding" these people is through streams it's not going to scare the rest because SE wont have a way to track who uses the addons unless they start scanning peoples computers, which they already said they'd never do. So no, no one is going to get scared into getting rid of addons.

Any mods other people use will be client side and you'll never see them. YT/Twitch video's you'll see them but it's mostly shaders and facial cosmetics. Yoshi's stance has always been he recommends against using them but cannot force you not to. The bans are usually warranted if they change the core game or if they advertise it openly. If you do the Yoshi ninjas will get you.

I personally don't like mods and never used them in any MMO.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

I hope you get the ban you deserve.

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Cute.

Anyway, still not answering my post about what this would look like for the other 99.99% of players. You seem a bit scuffed about all this, maybe drink some water and get back to me when you want to discuss reasonable solutions to how SE can address 3rd party software in a way that satisfies the issues I listed, and does not leave us with "The player had to admit to it in game chat and the program gave clear and measurable advantage". Love and light.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

...I'm sorry, what?

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This is not a political forum. Please keep this topic out of here. pogchamps

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Originally Posted by Hoehenflug

This is not a political forum. Please keep this topic out of here. pogchamps

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...I'm quoting you. You brought it up.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

That is literally like what 0.1% of the people who may be using an addon. Yeah that's def going to solve the problem.

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The number is much higher than that.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If they start banning these people you will see things clean up very quickly. Fear works wonders.

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Never going to happen.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

...I'm quoting you. You brought it up.

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And you are still trying to derail this topic and @me without thinking. Twitch has a rather obvious political affiliation. You wasted my time 2 times now by playing dumb. Can you stop now.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

It's clear you have very skewed priorities and believe in "guilt by silence" for lack of a better way of putting it.

Go outside, enjoy the fresh air.

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In other words, you are saying I have a “limit view point” which clearly we are discussing here a legal aspect dude… it is illegal end of the discussion. You don't know my beliefs and “guilt by silence” it is a double interpretation sword of doubt.

With all respect, I do not tell you what to do… So I return your “Go outside, enjoy the fresh air” You need for your morality and ethics.

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Originally Posted by Karthunk

Here is another saying: "Mind your own damn business". Meaning if people are engaged in acts that have no effect on you kindly leave them alone. Is that clear?

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I thought was "Mind your own business" without the curse, and even there is a song of it from 1986. In the other hand, there is other that says “You cannot control the behaviour of others, but you can always choose how you respond to it.” If you respond, in this way, probably means these affect you more.

So may I ask you. Was this affect you? Or is it affecting you? If no, why you mind then? If yes, are you incurring on illegal activities that involve.

"2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any unauthorized cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software or hardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay."

"2.7 Modifying or Creating Derivative Software. You may not modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game or Service in any way not expressly authorized by Square Enix, and may not make any derivative works of the Game."

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

In other words...

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No, in other words, I'm telling you have way too much time on your hands to be so upset about people's personal choices in aesthetics. There's nothing to discuss - people who use those addons know the risk, and has been such the case since ACT first came onto the scene. What you and others are actually doing, is moral brow beating. If you feel that passionate, go witch hunt - I doubt you have the social standing to lose over it. Maybe you can revive "ModHunters"

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Some UI mods are distributed through XIVlauncher, which also gives players access to a number of other features that give clear advantages. Some examples:

- Allows you to see player hitbox
- Can automatically find and relay hunt mobs
- Condenses combos to one button
- Allows macros to be daisy-chained
- Allows mouseover targeting without macro delay
- Gives player realtime information about mobs in PoTD
- Shows different damage types visually (magic/physical))

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Some of them are obviously cheating like the one button combo button or the macro improvements, for others I am not that concerned. Allowing you to see your own hitbox sounds broken until you realize that encounters are not designed with that in mind and you pretty much never need to stand pixel perfect. It's great fun when you get it off but I can count the instances where it would have come up for me on one hand with 4 fingers remaining.
The different damage type thing is something I wish the game would just tell you, or atleast when you try to use type specific mitigation for something if it had an effect or not.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

No, in other words, I'm telling you have way too much time on your hands to be so upset about people's personal choices in aesthetics. There's nothing to discuss - people who use those addons know the risk, and has been such the case since ACT first came onto the scene. What you and others are actually doing, is moral brow beating. If you feel that passionate, go witch hunt - I doubt you have the social standing to lose over it. Maybe you can revive "ModHunters"

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Dude bla bla bla stop judging others and assuming things! I am not upset, I am sick and tired of people discussing this! It is illegal, dude. Don't you get it? Yoshi-P say it, it is at the ToS. He said "I recommend no to do it". If you understand and says they know the risk, move on and do not justify them. Besides, do not lecture me about ACT, I was there in HW when it was created by the WOW guy. And we know how was starting to be use for elitist people (DPS heads).

I don't know what is or who is "ModHunters".

If you want my personal opinion. As a game developer and 3D modeler. YES, I don't like addons, mods or what ever 3rd tool parties that modify the game experience on how it was intended. Happy?

The vast majority of the UI mods I see streamers use don't do anything but change the UI in a way that's easier for them to understand/parse int information the game already gives you. It's like me having my job gauges in the upper right corner, by the minimap and resizing the hot bars. It's not going to be a huge deal, even to raid groups, since there's already high end raiders that do Savage/Ultimate on consoles...

You: "I'm not upset"
Also you: "I'm sick and tired of discussing this! It's illegal! Also, this is like if you were quiet around racism, then you're also racist! BUT I'M NOT UPSET!"

Your occupation is meaningless. Your game experience isn't being changed. Again - go outside, enjoy the fresh air.

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

"to end your aggression" says the man, hahaha. There is a phrase that says, “When there is a Racist in the table and all accept it, all are Racist”. Meaning, if you accept the illegality, you are participating for braking the rules that you accepted, so you are an illegal person. Is it that clear?

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Racism is immoral. Modding isn't. Sure, it's against the terms of service... But so is playing the Super Mario theme as a bard in Limsa... And I guarantee if you report either, the GM that handles it isn't going to care much since they have to deal with people actually reporting genuinely toxic people.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

If anyone wants to spend an hour or two reading up on some history of anti-cheat software in MMOS, and why SE and others have such a hard time automating the detection of bots 'n such, I'd do a few googles about WoW and Warden (the software, not the faction).

Long story short: It's very expensive, and it's a constant battle. Not nearly as easy or cut and dry as you'd assume it would be. Still very interesting reading, though.

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This. 100%. I folks don't realize mods will always be a thing. Nothing SE can stop them.

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Originally Posted by Karthunk

Here is another saying: "Mind your own damn business". Meaning if people are engaged in acts that have no effect on you kindly leave them alone. Is that clear?

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Yeah, absolutely, 100% agreed.

Also:

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

"to end your aggression" says the man, hahaha. There is a phrase that says, “When there is a Racist in the table and all accept it, all are Racist”. Meaning, if you accept the illegality, you are participating for braking the rules that you accepted, so you are an illegal person. Is it that clear?

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We're talking about a video game, brother. In this video game discussion, to make a point, you're bringing up some deeply moral stuff about sitting at a table with racists. Let me re-iterate ... we're talking about a video game. How 'bout using an appropriate analogy instead of setting up a straw man by insinuating anyone who is OK with UI mods is OK with racism.

My god, man, that's asinine. Come on. I mean, really, you gotta go read up on this stuff if you think your debate technique is on point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

What's next? If one has ever witnessed another human littering, and failed to call the police, that person condones murder? 'Cause that's exactly what you're saying: complacency with small victimless crimes is equal to condoning something as morally reprehensible as racism.

Video game UI mods are benign. Live and let live.

And just out of my back pocket, I pull a reasonable analogy which proves you don't need to bring up racism in this discussion:

Using addons is like when people hang stuff from their rear-view mirror in their car or place bumper stickers on their windshields.

- These actions are illegal (as are the mods, in the same sense "against the law" that SE wrote)
- A lot of people get away with it (just like here).
- Most people don't pull over to the side of the road when they see these infractions, and immediately call the police.
- Both addons, and fuzzy dice, have a negligible chance of affecting you personally, as one that doesn't hang dice or use addons. You may, very rarely, encounter someone who gains a slight advantage over you due to their addons. You may, very rarely, encounter another driver who rear-ends you because their fuzzy dice blocked their view.

There, branch off that and say your piece, and leave the racism discussions for somewhere outside of a video game forum.

You really take this to another whole level, hahahaha. Dude, this why I am sick and tired. Keep justifying the illegal actions.

Like Germans says, “If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis”

Bye bye o/

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

You really take this to another whole level, hahahaha. Dude, this why I am sick and tired. Keep justifying the illegal actions.

Like Germans says, “If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis”

Bye bye o/

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There is nothing "illegal" about modding. It's against ToS, but that's it. It can potentially get you banned... If the GMs care enough to enforce it. They usually don't... UI mods don't really effect anything with the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

You really take this to another whole level, hahahaha. Dude, this why I am sick and tired. Keep justifying the illegal actions.

Like Germans says, “If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis”

Bye bye o/

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There is only one level - life. Every action and behavior is inter-connected. Those that don't realize or believe that are naive.

I'll take your lack of response as an acceptance of defeat.

Toodles. o/

So I haven't seen more than like, one quick post about this mod so idk anything about it but for a second I thought you meant people were modding to look like the DEFAULT WoW UI and I was so, so confused because holy CRAP the default UI in that game is so unbelieveably godawful lmao

Anyway if it's cosmetic I really don't care, ff has one of the better default UIs in my opinion but I mean. Whatever. Unless it's doing something more??

Then again I also fully support dps meters as long are people aren't you-know-whats about them so... feels like a different issue tbh

I just pass to correct you something...

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

There is nothing "illegal" about modding. It's against ToS, but that's it. It can potentially get you banned... If the GMs care enough to enforce it. They usually don't... UI mods don't really effect anything with the gameplay.

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Please look what it is a Terms of Service (ToS) Agreement and why if you violated they can cancel your service or even take LEGAL actions on you... I will help you a bit on your search, you can also call Legal binding contract.

That been set, the consequence on that is up to the company (that is another story)

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Originally Posted by Breakbeat

There is only one level - life. Every action and behavior is inter-connected. Those that don't realize or believe that are naive.

I'll take your lack of response as an acceptance of defeat.

Toodles. o/

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You didn't even notice what I mean, and you are only pointing to the “racism”? Go back and read what I mean, dude. If you misplace or misunderstand my quotes and words, it is up to you.

And I take the opportunity to say, "Only fools think they win over others". Also, you are saying, “Every action and behavior is inter-connected. ..." is accepting what I say before… please read… read… I quote, “You cannot control the behaviour of others, but you can always choose how you respond to it.”

Dude, we called these situations “rain over wet” meaning you are saying something I already said related about how to react with other behaviours… This pass when a person try to “be” smart to refute something simple, he/she doesn't have reason. Or even try to distort.

It is interesting when people don't follow the conversations and just pop with the message out of context or out of the author context. :v Meaning… do not distract by the saying, but pay attention on of MEANING author is doing on the point. This is lack of reading interpretations.

EDIT: When was this turn into a contest to say who win or lose? *facepalm*

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

I just pass to correct you something...



Please look what it is a Terms of Service (ToS) Agreement and why if you violated they can cancel your service or even take LEGAL actions on you... I will help you a bit on your search, you can also call Legal binding contract.

That been set, the consequence on that is up to the company (that is another story)

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Yoshi-P has spoken on this. If they followed the ToS to the letter even things like discord would be against the ToS. Same with VPNs software to run gamepads or MMO mice. It would also require them to put basically spyware onto your computer, which they do not want to do, because they seem to at least somewhat respect privacy of the players unlike so many other MMOs.

I don’t care about addons. .. but then i played WoW for a long time so might be biased..

How someone decides to arrange their ui or view their ui should not effect anything or anyone really.. some peoples brains process things differently so sometimes having a ui look one way or another is beneficial to some and not others. This kind of thing shouldn’t bother others.. you don’t have to use it..

As far as addons that automate in a way that it creates an unfair advantage to others.. then yes perhaps those are bad.

Addons that are help with boss fights i think maybe is a gray area.. Some people with learning difficulties can use this tool to help remember and notice things more. While others who are more normal perhaps it might create an advantage.. i think though that if people use these addons they then should probably not complain about fights being too easy.. (this kind of happened in WoW). These could be a double edged sword unfortunately..

IMO the UI mods look below average overall and the FFXIV UI is superior (with tweaking), however I am not against the options these UI mods bring to the table.

However, I also realize that a nonchalant response to them is not ideal because it also opens the gates to something like the other mods that affects GCD timing to an extent you can fit 3 oGCDs in one GCD window. Ideally the best scenario is probably they adapt the UI enhancements but take a harsher stance on some of these programs or sites hosting the more hacking type mods.

I must say.. some of the people arguing against these 'ui mods' are starting to come off as unhinged in how they go about their arguments. Like.. what on earth is even going on when racism and nazi strawmen are being brought into the discussion?

What other people choose to do with their UI and whether they use mods to do it or not really isn't anyone else's business. As I said earlier in this thread, if you see a popular streamer and their UI is quite obviously not XIV's default one.. and it really bothers you that much, report them. That is all you can do, and even then the chances of something being done are fairly slim because it isn't worth the attention when there's no doubt more important things to deal with than 'johnny's ui was blue and had white icons rather than the default!'.

Yoshida's team aren't going to take any steps to install kernel level spyware on the computers of their customers.. and you should be glad they won't because it shows that at least on some level they care about the severe security concerns that most of these anti cheat solutions bring up.

OP complaining about addons being the "wowification" of this game clearly knows nothing about the history of this game

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Yoshi-P has spoken on this. If they followed the ToS to the letter even things like discord would be against the ToS. Same with VPNs software to run gamepads or MMO mice. It would also require them to put basically spyware onto your computer, which they do not want to do, because they seem to at least somewhat respect privacy of the players unlike so many other MMOs.

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Of course, I mention this before. Yoshi-P advice, please don't use it. And follow up, they don't want any spy program on us. It is like your government put you a neckless or wrist or track your face to see if your behaviour is good with the society (chincof cof ...a) :v

But this doesn't mean your behaviour be disrespectful toward others, you agree to follow the agreement (the rules of this game). If you want changes you have the support desk and forums, they may implement if they see not bad for whole game structure. This is based also on trust players they are going to use in good way the game.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I won't name them or the link them but there is now a super popular ui modification, only available on PC that is making the game look like a popular WoW ui. I think this is a step too far (arguably damage meters already were) and since they are technically a violation of the games terms of service, its time to put the foot down and enforce the already existing rules.

It puts players who actually play by rules and/or on console at a significant disadvantage on higher end content.

Either change the TOS to allow these addons or actually enforce the fact that they are against the rules (preferred option.)

Streamers and youtubers openly defy the rules of the game using these modifications and nothing is done about it. If we are going to ignore these things, please let me know which rules are breakable and which are not.

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why you care how people want to play?_?
its change how in game mechanics works? its effect you?
the only time you can start care at how people play is when its in your party.
if this is in no way effect you you got no say at this. so stop looking like a full

OP seems more upset about his choice of a console over a PC

Both issues are kinda SE fault:

Why didn't they make a proper ui that allows customisation, dmg dealt/received color change, remove the text part, filter floating combat stuff you don't want to see, visual proc options (for example monk forms, who seriously reads or keeps track of opop dopo dupa dapa dimba forms?? who reads during a fight??) SHOW. Don't tell.

And then they made end content so hard it's down to milliseconds to avoid lethal dmg, of course players want and need some tools that inform them clearly about these things.

I see nothing wrong in pc users installing addons to get what the game should have provided them with from the start.

What exactly about WoW UI gives an advantage?

I modded my WoW UI to look like FFXIV with an addon lol.

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Originally Posted by Arckrin

EDIT: When was this turn into a contest to say who win or lose? *facepalm*

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Probably when you started using examples of racism to explain why using mods is "bad". Further, when you Godwinned the thread in post #184.

Stop being deliberately obtuse. You can't drop a small nuke on the argument ("If you condone addon use, it's as bad as condoning racism,") and then walk away and expect no retort.

If you feel this discussion should be finished, don't respond. That's how conversation works. When you're done, you're done, so you stop. If you volley it back to me, I can and will respond to anything I feel I want or need to.

Another non issue the FFXIV fanbase over hypes and hinges on to. If you dont like the UIs dont use them and dont interact with people who use it. There is no way this could possible hurt you in any way or form unless your ego is so fragile you feel like it takes something away from your own accomplishments.

Honest question, (please dont attack me)

-But is UI options/customization really a bad thing? Seems to me that if say wow/elv users can duplicate what they are "comfortable" with then that would make them more comfortable and stick around in this game? -just an example.

-Now I'm not defending how mods can be used in a derogatory way, however im genuinely curious as to why "options" to make people enjoy the game more are a bad thing?

Kind of Shocked that someone has mad a UI mod, honestly once you understand the UI system and how to modify the built in it's kind of already like Bartender from WOW, with added marco functionality allowing for some truely neat tricks. Which I am using to make 3 to 4 times more buttons than standard. With them all set to one Bar off to the side of my screen.