Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Alexander rates from 2017 and current rates are not comparable. Cross-world party finder only came out during the final tier of Alexander, which made a massive difference to savage accessibility.

There are differences in the level of interest in savage even within regions and even between different worlds, so not all of NA is the same.

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Regardless, Savage clears are in the minority and what has to be in savage doesn't reflect the rest of the game. It's a completely different environment.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The exact percentage of health they do it at honestly isn't as important as the rate their HP is declining versus the rate the healer is restoring it.

But then, good healers would know that already.

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Pretty sure the percentage of health does indeed matter. If a Paladin is panicking and using clemency before they even come close to hitting 50% HP, welp the White Mage isn't going to get the full bang for their buck with Benediction which fully restored health, the Astro isn't going to get the full potency of Essential Dignity which scales higher the lower a target's health is, and the Scholar will regret even bothering to waste an aetherflow charge/recitation to place an Excogitation on said Panicky Paladin, an ability that only activates when the target drops below 50‰ HP. And that's not even touching on the other abilities healers have dedicated to healing or reducing damage that can be weaved in between their casts.

Meanwhile, every time a Paladin casts Clemency when not under the effect of the upgraded Requiescat they lose the ability to block during the casting animation. Every time a Paladin casts Clemency during their Requiescat window, that's a Holy Spirit/Holy Circle tossed to the wayside. Even Requiescat itself is affected since not only is it's potency affected by how much mp you have at the time it's used, but if you accidentally use it when under 80% mp, welp there goes your 50% potency increase, your instant casts, and your Confiteor.

The only time to use Clemency without restraint is when something has gone horribly wrong (i.e the 2 healers in your alliance have gone down and you're desperately trying to heal up everyone before/after a fat raidwide while hoping to Hydaelyn that someone from another alliance notices and helps you out).

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Regardless, Savage clears are in the minority and what has to be in savage doesn't reflect the rest of the game. It's a completely different environment.

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The way kits are used in harder content is in a much more optimal way that in casual content, you can play at savage level in casual content, but not casual level in savage content, the OP asked how to use clemency so yeah people are going to talk about the best way to use it (or not) regardless of the type of content.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

This was by February, it will be higher now
https://i.imgur.com/TgTRFSs.png

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Man, NA is embarrassingly bad especially my server Siren. Big sad.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Man, NA is embarrassingly bad especially my server Siren. Big sad.

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I've just never been big into PvE, frankly. If this game had good PvP, I'd play PvP. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, so I do what I'd do otherwise: glamour endgame, midcore PvE, some collecting, etc.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

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Nothing to do with ongoing talk, just wanna make sure I understand the chart; I'm on Tonberry, so it means:

The right end, where we see 97.7%, that's just saying "Of those that did E4S, 97.7% have also cleared E8S, 23.9% E12S ?

And what is EmX?

Otherwise, that's awesome that 20ish% are clearing savage. And also interesting to see what certain servers might cater to.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Nothing to do with ongoing talk, just wanna make sure I understand the chart; I'm on Tonberry, so it means:

The right end, where we see 97.7%, that's just saying "Of those that did E4S, 97.7% have also cleared E8S, 23.9% E12S ?

And what is EmX?

Otherwise, that's awesome that 20ish% are clearing savage. And also interesting to see what certain servers might cater to.

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I'm not sure about EmX either, but for the other percentages, yes.

So whenever people claim that only 5% of the playerbase does savage, they forget to (or choose not to sometimes) precise, on Crystal. And do note this only counts the last floors of each tier, the lower the floor is, the higher the clear % is!

I don't do the endgame stuff, but it's always good to know what's going on in the game as a whole.

I'd be interested to know what the average % of those who just did a 1 and done (like me for non-savage) vs those that do it weekly or regularly.

I guess people who do it enough to actually clear it want to do it regularly enough to milk all the gear they can get out of it (I mean, they put in the effort so why not).

Is it a fair assumption that the 20% who have cleared it are also doing it regularly while it's current?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

And what is EmX?

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Just a guess as this isnt my data or anything, but im thinking its Emerald Extreme. The chart was tracking mount ownership as a proxy for clear rates, and emerald does also have a mount available. Though it only takes 8 clears for the full static to get the savage mount, and the drop rate for the gwibber is much worse then that.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I don't do the endgame stuff, but it's always good to know what's going on in the game as a whole.

I'd be interested to know what the average % of those who just did a 1 and done (like me for non-savage) vs those that do it weekly or regularly.

I guess people who do it enough to actually clear it want to do it regularly enough to milk all the gear they can get out of it (I mean, they put in the effort so why not).

Is it a fair assumption that the 20% who have cleared it are also doing it regularly while it's current?

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Looking at ffxivcollect's achievement section, 16% cleared the last floor of this tier once, 13% 5 times or more, and 7% 10 times or more. This doesn't count everyone who cleared I assume but it gives a rough idea about the disparity between how players go about clearing a tier.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's not really. Most competent healers will also only heal under 50%, so you are effectively not letting the healers even use their off-global heals which would be far more efficient, or making them waste their heals because you already did a heal in the same moment.

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If it's a real issue, they're free to speak up. But I'm usually not in a position where I feel the need to use it regardless. The game just handed me a basic heal, and I use it when I feel they need help keeping me up.
I think the wide bulk of content can be cleared without 100% effective heals and perfectly maximized DPS. Something like this shouldn't be a source of stress in something we're supposed to be doing for fun and relaxation.

That being said, I'm also leveling other classes now so I have a better understanding of how they play. I honestly don't even know how two healers coordinate what to do in regular instances.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

If it's a real issue, they're free to speak up. But I'm usually not in a position where I feel the need to use it regardless. The game just handed me a basic heal, and I use it when I feel they need help keeping me up.
I think the wide bulk of content can be cleared without 100% effective heals and perfectly maximized DPS. Something like this shouldn't be a source of stress in something we're supposed to be doing for fun and relaxation.

That being said, I'm also leveling other classes now so I have a better understanding of how they play. I honestly don't even know how two healers coordinate what to do in regular instances.

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But you don't know when they need help keeping you up unless you're paying to which oGCDs they're using. If I'm holding bene and plan on using it when you get to 10% and you clemency, you aren't helping. Just AOE and rotate your cooldowns. All the other tanks live just fine without clemency. Paladin uses it in niche situations (dead healers, severely undergeared healer, etc)

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Originally Posted by iVolke

But you don't know when they need help keeping you up unless you're paying to which oGCDs they're using. If I'm holding bene and plan on using it when you get to 10% and you clemency, you aren't helping. Just AOE and rotate your cooldowns. All the other tanks live just fine without clemency. Paladin uses it in niche situations (dead healers, severely undergeared healer, etc)

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I suppose that's fair enough. And it leaves me with an extra slot for other abilities.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

The way kits are used in harder content is in a much more optimal way that in casual content, you can play at savage level in casual content, but not casual level in savage content, the OP asked how to use clemency so yeah people are going to talk about the best way to use it (or not) regardless of the type of content.

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The big difference though, and the reason only focusing on savage is a bad idea, is this all depends on whether you have savage level healers. Casuals play casual content, including casual healers. I know high skilled healers might just be waiting for the optimal time to use Benediction, out there in the wild west of the the DF though there are healers who are just overwhelmed by workload, especially in a party that likes giving them work to do.

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Pretty sure the percentage of health does indeed matter.

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I never said it didn't. Stop making arguments against claims that were never made.

What I said was that it doesn't matter as much as the rate of decline. The exact percentage by itself is a useless figure unless we know exactly how much threat the tank is actually under. Sometimes, lingering at 40% is dangerous (and I've certainly made enough pulls just in 4 man dungeons in which it would be); sometimes it won't be.

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Meanwhile, every time a Paladin casts Clemency when not under the effect of the upgraded Requiescat they lose the ability to block during the casting animation. Every time a Paladin casts Clemency during their Requiescat window, that's a Holy Spirit/Holy Circle tossed to the wayside.

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See earlier posts about how nobody cares about tank DPS in rando DF content + healers worrying way too much about what other people are doing instead of looking after their own business.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I never said it didn't. Stop making arguments against claims that were never made.

What I said was that it doesn't matter as much as the rate of decline. The exact percentage by itself is a useless figure unless we know exactly how much threat the tank is actually under. Sometimes, lingering at 40% is dangerous (and I've certainly made enough pulls just in 4 man dungeons in which it would be); sometimes it won't be.

See earlier posts about how nobody cares about tank DPS in rando DF content + healers worrying way too much about what other people are doing instead of looking after their own business.

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Sometimes, more than you'd hope to see, tank dps is what is carrying dps.

Something something "All DPS matters".

Besides, everybody should have some concern over what the other players are doing. If the tank isn't actively using their cooldowns to mitigate damage, then the healer has to put a stop to their own dps and start healbombing said tank. If the healer is spamming low level heals like cure 1 without even dipping into their instant cast spells or their off globals like Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Asylum or Assize, then they're not only capsizing their own healing and offensive capabilities, but the tank might drop from an actual lack of healing.

And if the DPS are using single target skills when a pack of 10+ mobs are gnawing on the tank's face, or the dreaded freestyle SAM is spamming Hakaze into an uncomboed Mangetsu while the BLM does their best impression of Mr Freeze, well the tank and healer are gonna run dry on cooldowns and/or mp eventually.

That whole "looking after your own business" doesn't really exist in a multiplayer game I'm afraid.

There are some fights in the game where damage is based on % of HP instead of a flat amount. E1S was like this, it still applies today even if you want to farm it in 530 gear.

A good healer will know what kind of damage is imminent and handle as-appropriate. Just as much as tanks do, we are watching our own cooldowns along with optimization. Like for a scholar they might have 2 energy drains but you are going down to 60% HP. The first stack they might use energy drain to weave/reapply their DoT and move for a mechanic, the other will be the Excog for a tank hit/buster, they might weave the fairy tether next to fill the gap. Even better they might even Recitation the Excog and the 2nd stack can be an emergency heal or energy drain. This is just a sample way to do things rather than panic and lustrate over lifebar anxiety. These kind of options become more available when someone is comfortable with the fight and their job.

There was also a time when tank busters and autos could crit. I actually had to remember the days when Awareness was required with any tank cooldown in O3S otherwise you don't survive unless you used an immunity. Now they got away from these crits, so there is more predictability for tanks and healers on damage.