The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenDuelar

Actually, I'm almost completely certain that they said the white robes are a mark of impartiality, and are only worn by the Emissary and retired Convocation members like Venat.

The implication is that they can be trusted to not place the interests of the Convocation above those they're helping or advising, and may even act against its interests.

---

This is correct. So sayeth Hythlodaeus:

Quote:

---

You needn't be nervous around Venat─those white robes mark her as one of fair and impartial reasoning. Aside from the emissary, Elidibus, such garb is worn only by those who have stepped down from public office to serve as advisors. Whatever you have to say, she will listen without judgement.

---

It is interesting what Emet-Selch tells us of the Convocation in Elpis. He does not mention Elidibus, Deudalaphon, or Nabriales. Of the ones that he does tell us about, he mentions that they are each held by individuals chosen for their surpassing abilities, and he separates them into two categories:

1) Offices held by authorities in certain fields — Mitron (specialist in aquatic life); Loghrif (specialist in terrestrial life and husbandry); Halmarut (specialist in fungal and plant life); Emmerololth (specialist in medicine and healing); Lahabrea (specialist in creation magicks)

2) Offices held by individuals possessing skills that facilitate the performance of their duties — Altima (advocate of the arts); Igeyorhm (champion of enlightenment and rhetoric); Pashtarot (preserver of discipline and order); Emet-Selch (keeper of the aetherial realm, the "Underworld"); Fandaniel (pursuer of extant phenomena); Azem (traveler of the world, counselor to the people)

Where the three not mentioned would fit in, I'm curious about... Where would Elidibus fit in? Maybe the latter, and the skill that those chosen for the title possess is an exceptional ability to remain impartial and fair in matters brought to them? I could easily see Nabriales being in the latter as well, being notably capable of time magicks (at least our Nabriales was) that might facilitate performing his duties... And of course, the ever mysterious Deudalaphon.

The logical part of my brain keeps trying to work out where the three of them might fit so that there's an equal number of 7 offices per each category, but maybe it just isn't clean cut like that. Maybe the possibility of those three just not fitting into either category, or that he simply just forgot to mention them (it happens to us all)

Is a month old considered necro? lol

Anyways, the entirety of 6.0 was set to give closure to pretty much every story so far [even Tataru's carby got closure!] so it's specially weird the remaining 4 ascians are still a mystery - we could consider the 2 we saw on Gaius' belt "dead dead" but that still leaves 2 just...hanging around, doing whatever now that their master is dead? Maybe they'll be mentioned in one of the side stories, or a future patch, but idk, could've said Fandaniel fed them to Anima and that was that /shrug

If we had more information on how Gaius and the Shadow Hunters obtained some of the masks and the events that transpired around it, that's the only thing that gives me pause, but also Ascians can't die by normal means so I don't know lol.

I'd be really surprised if we see absolutely nothing of the remaining Ascians in the 6.x cycle.

The Scions initially dismissed them as not being as much of a threat due to the unsundered being gone...but Fandaniel kinda flipped that on its head and showed without anyone keeping them in check they're liable to cause much bigger problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h-alpha

This is correct. So sayeth Hythlodaeus:




It is interesting what Emet-Selch tells us of the Convocation in Elpis. He does not mention Elidibus, Deudalaphon, or Nabriales. Of the ones that he does tell us about, he mentions that they are each held by individuals chosen for their surpassing abilities, and he separates them into two categories:

1) Offices held by authorities in certain fields — Mitron (specialist in aquatic life); Loghrif (specialist in terrestrial life and husbandry); Halmarut (specialist in fungal and plant life); Emmerololth (specialist in medicine and healing); Lahabrea (specialist in creation magicks)

2) Offices held by individuals possessing skills that facilitate the performance of their duties — Altima (advocate of the arts); Igeyorhm (champion of enlightenment and rhetoric); Pashtarot (preserver of discipline and order); Emet-Selch (keeper of the aetherial realm, the "Underworld"); Fandaniel (pursuer of extant phenomena); Azem (traveler of the world, counselor to the people)

Where the three not mentioned would fit in, I'm curious about... Where would Elidibus fit in? Maybe the latter, and the skill that those chosen for the title possess is an exceptional ability to remain impartial and fair in matters brought to them? I could easily see Nabriales being in the latter as well, being notably capable of time magicks (at least our Nabriales was) that might facilitate performing his duties... And of course, the ever mysterious Deudalaphon.

The logical part of my brain keeps trying to work out where the three of them might fit so that there's an equal number of 7 offices per each category, but maybe it just isn't clean cut like that. Maybe the possibility of those three just not fitting into either category, or that he simply just forgot to mention them (it happens to us all)

---

I was under the impression that the role of Elidibus was made specifically during the final days and granted to the one who would be come the heart of Zodiark? After our finding of the stones that restore memory Elidibus didn't seem to remember anything about himself, his promises or his friends once we defeated him even while holding the stones.

I'm kinda under the impression that the magic amplifier kid were with in Pandomium(idr the name) will take the job during the end of days. As during the MSQ we were told Elidibus saw us in Elpis and had memories of meeting us.. but we didn't meet anyone that matched him or claimed his seat.

That tells me he wasn't in that seat at the time or it didn't exist yet. Something about the kid were helping makes me think of Elidibus but we will have to wait and see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baxcel

I was under the impression that the role of Elidibus was made specifically during the final days and granted to the one who would be come the heart of Zodiark? After our finding of the stones that restore memory Elidibus didn't seem to remember anything about himself, his promises or his friends once we defeated him even while holding the stones.

I'm kinda under the impression that the magic amplifier kid were with in Pandomium(idr the name) will take the job during the end of days. As during the MSQ we were told Elidibus saw us in Elpis and had memories of meeting us.. but we didn't meet anyone that matched him or claimed his seat.

That tells me he wasn't in that seat at the time or it didn't exist yet. Something about the kid were helping makes me think of Elidibus but we will have to wait and see.

---

Except Elidibus had to have held the seat before the Final Days occurred because the Tales From the Shadows story 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' specifically mentions Elidibus already holding that seat in the immediate period in the days just before Azem's little volcanic jaunt (which Elidbus himself states Azem might face censure for), an event of which Hythlodaeus said when we first meet Venat in Elpis had happened "just the other day", and yet the Final Days had not begun at that stage. So unless this is a retcon, or just an oversight, is unclear.

Or maybe the "just the other day" wasn't literal, but merely "oh it happened not that long ago", but to people who live for centuries, "just the other day" might seem to us like "months ago". But that's just idle musings from me. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Except Elidibus had to have held the seat before the Final Days occurred because the Tales From the Shadows story 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' specifically mentions Elidibus already holding that seat in the immediate period in the days just before Azem's little volcanic jaunt

---

Additionally, what little description we get of Elidibus in this story fits with Themis.

Yeah the remaining sundered Ascians have to return for sure. As mentioned they are a huge risk when Fandaniel already achieved what he did. My theory is they return as the trials in the patch cycles, either that or they will get a hand in the story. Scheming and doing their shady stuff that leads into different events, without them being the main focus tho. Hell maybe 7.0 starts out because of their doings. Tbh I would appreciate if atleast one of them sides with us, that would open up interesting pathways for the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilversLyu

Tbh I would appreciate if atleast one of them sides with us, that would open up interesting pathways for the story.

---

We already got one of those.

She's a bit short-tempered, but Ryne likes her, so she can't be all bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Additionally, what little description we get of Elidibus in this story fits with Themis.

---

Oh I agree, it's all but certain Themis is Elidibus, as he's really the only candidate for the role (he wears a white robe, is in his late teens, and even appears to share the same voice actor), and that there is really no one else in Elpis who even remotely resembles him. But I guess we have to wait for SE to confirm that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Oh I agree, it's all but certain Themis is Elidibus, as he's really the only candidate for the role (he wears a white robe, is in his late teens, and even appears to share the same voice actor), and that there is really no one else in Elpis who even remotely resembles him. But I guess we have to wait for SE to confirm that.

---

Now we just need to know When it is =P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Oh I agree, it's all but certain Themis is Elidibus, as he's really the only candidate for the role (he wears a white robe, is in his late teens, and even appears to share the same voice actor), and that there is really no one else in Elpis who even remotely resembles him. But I guess we have to wait for SE to confirm that.

---

I meant more timing-wise, indicating that Themis is already in the seat of Elidibus prior to our trip to Elpis, rather than only taking up the position later during the Final Days, as Baxcel suggested.

That said, I think there is a small but non-zero chance that they are going to do an extra loop-the-loop of time shenanigans and have Pandaemonium actually happen earlier than the rest of the Elpis storyline, mainly because there's a deliberate talking point during MSQ at the teleporter we later learn goes to Pandaemonium, where Emet observes that it seems neglected and wonders if it is out of use. It could just be that people don't go in or out that way much, or it's deliberately made to look like it doesn't work to discourage people – though in an earlier conversation Venat hints that there's a dangerous facility connected to that island so it's not exactly a secret. More strange pieces in the puzzle.

Of course, the simpler explanation is that it is post-Elpis as we experience it, and Themis is already Elidibus but undercover for some reason.

I figure when in doubt always try to go for the simpler easier answer for that. Too many complications is just a headache waiting to happen. Doubly so since Time travel is added into the mix. Also makes more sense atleast to me if it happens after Elpis. Reason being is if you go back into Pandaemonia and speak to Themis, he states that he has gotten in touch with Azem and that they said they had the utmost faith is us handling things.

I'm figuring that word got to them about us and just decides to keep rolling with it and saying they sent us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

I figure when in doubt always try to go for the simpler easier answer for that. Too many complications is just a headache waiting to happen. Doubly so since Time travel is added into the mix. Also makes more sense atleast to me if it happens after Elpis.

---

Oh, definitely I prefer the straightforward answer. I just can't rule the other interpretation out as impossible from what we currently know.

I will point out that we have absolutely no concept of the passage of time between when we went to Elpis and when the End of Days happened, nor do we really know what Ancients would consider 'a long time' or how long their lifespans were. Theoretically there could've been plenty of time between those two events for Themis to become Elidibus, and to have become relatively settled into his role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I will point out that we have absolutely no concept of the passage of time between when we went to Elpis and when the End of Days happened, nor do we really know what Ancients would consider 'a long time' or how long their lifespans were. Theoretically there could've been plenty of time between those two events for Themis to become Elidibus, and to have become relatively settled into his role.

---

This would only be true if our time with Themis took place before our time with Hyth, Hades, and Venat, not after. The reason is because during our initial trip, Hyth told Venat about Azem's antics with Ifrita and the volcano—and while those particular events were happening, Themis was already Elidibus (assuming Themis is Elidibus).

Things are a bit easier to understand if they run on "San Dimas Time"—the idea that time is always moving forward, so you can't use time travel willy-nilly to keep taking swings at the same set of events. Otherwise there'd be no reason not to abuse time travel to, say, give yourself a helping hand or three/seven/twenty-three to deal with Hermes and Meteion/Pandaemonium/I hope to God we don't use time travel at all in the 24-man raid questline.

As an aside, I should probably watch Bill & Ted at some point.

Honestly from how it went down after we came back from elpis it did look like that time was still moving forward. Due to the fact that when we left it was just the Thavnair area under the final days and when we come back Garlemald is being affected.

And if you haven't watched Bill and Ted's... any of them definitely do so they're most excellent.... lol

Themis also tells at least us before we meet Eric that they were supposed to investigate it with Azem before Azem going "Oh wait I uh can't, buddy. I'll just cover for you while you ah wait for the help that comes via a shooting star." Then dances around the whole convocation subject while saying he's just an investigator that works with the convocation and if a member were to have come that they'd have to start the self destruct sequence if they found out all the nasties had over run the facility. I think it's happening after our 1st time. It definitely isn't happening during cause it'd be strange for Emet and Hythlodaeus not to notice Elidibus was there. As it seemed like he had been waiting for a little while before we almost knocked him out by landing on him.

Pretty sure azem just applied some self logic after being told most likely by venat that if he/she put the stone somewhere by our very nature we'd find it and solve the problem :P if there a problem then azem reincarnated or original will 100 % sure stumble across it we're like magnet for heroic stuff

Per live letter, Altima and Deudalaphon "killed" by Gaius but potentially may still be out there.


I think the more interesting thing is that the Unsundered are unsundered because Venat purposefully made a hole in her Sundering Emet-Selch could notice and escape through and he took Lahabrea and Elidibus.

I find it very interesting and very weird that they specifically mention those masks belonged to Deudalaphon and Altima. That would've been very easily vagued around, but no, specifically pinning both down and saying 'these two are the ones Gaius beat'.

Glad they addressed this in the Q&A, so the sundered weren't just forgotten about

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

I find it very interesting and very weird that they specifically mention those masks belonged to Deudalaphon and Altima. That would've been very easily vagued around, but no, specifically pinning both down and saying 'these two are the ones Gaius beat'.

---

I'm not as surprised after they mentioned they have written down the real identities of all of the Convocation members so they probably have notes elsewhere for who's where and what's going on. The surprising thing to me is how frank they were about saying "oh yeah, those two, definitely" when Gaius himself probably didn't even know their names. They probably have it all in their back pocket for consistency reasons or in case they need to bring one out of the woodwork for plot reasons.

I suspect we may have one or both of the remaining Sundered show up during the 6.X series, though I think Pandemonium can be safely ruled out, given what we know.

Whilst it wouldn't be entirely unexpected to have one or two 'loose ends' to tie up later on, with the tale of the Ancients coming to an end with 6.0, I think it wouldn't be ideal for there to still be remnants of that storyline floating around past the end of this expansion.

There's also the possibility that the two remaining Sundered may not even be villains?

I'm even more curious about Deudalaphon now, given we don't even know what his Convocation seat was in charge of, being left off the quick explanation that Emet-Selch gave. When his name turned up again as one of the two masks on Gaius's belt, I immediately wondered if this was coincidence or some hint to a possible plot hook. (With, of course, the understanding that plot hooks might end up abandoned due to the realities of game development.)

Maybe Severa and Valdeaulin are Altima and Deudalophon :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuella

Maybe Severa and Valdeaulin are Altima and Deudalophon :)

---

That would actually be pretty funny.

Necroing this since our resident Lorebrarian seems to be back and so OP gets updated. Afair we have now Altima and Deudalaphon confirmed killed by Gaius (ambiguous if dead-dead or just vessel-dead and they're still around somewhere), Pashtarot and Halmarut MIA, and Fandaniel very very dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Necroing this since our resident Lorebrarian seems to be back and so OP gets updated. Afair we have now Altima and Deudalaphon confirmed killed by Gaius (ambiguous if dead-dead or just vessel-dead and they're still around somewhere), Pashtarot and Halmarut MIA, and Fandaniel very very dead.

---

How could Gaius have possibly killed them permanently?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Necroing this since our resident Lorebrarian seems to be back and so OP gets updated. Afair we have now Altima and Deudalaphon confirmed killed by Gaius (ambiguous if dead-dead or just vessel-dead and they're still around somewhere), Pashtarot and Halmarut MIA, and Fandaniel very very dead.

---

Can do!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

How could Gaius have possibly killed them permanently?

---

Gaius seems to know a lot of things he could only know if he still had informants on our movements (and those of the Ascians in some cases). If he knows those things, it's not inconceivable that the tactic of "if they won't go to the sea, bring the sea to them" made it to him. Galuf was able to get Emmerololth killed, after all. I'm voting "ambiguous" as well, especially because - from a storycraft perspective - letting Gaius take credit for the kills for several years only to reveal he just made them abandon their vessel and run is disappointing, lol.

I've mentioned before, I feel like they might regret having a fourteen-member group of effectively identical and single-goaled villains, going by how high the off-screen bodycount got over time. Having Gaius kill two of them off-screen doesn't just give him some extra legitimacy both in combat ability and 'we know he's good for his word', it also means they have to write two less Ascians.

It's worth remembering that not only is Gaius just generally a smart guy with a lot of contacts, he's also one of the very few non-Scion people who's seen us kill an Ascian (or at least, 'I saw them take a swing at Lahabrea and then Lahabrea wasn't there anymore'; he doesn't need to know that didn't work as well as we thought). If they revealed that Merlwyb killed two Ascians, I'd have a lot more questions; but they revealed Gaius killed two Ascians, and that just sounds like something Gaius could've pulled off in the amount of time we weren't watching them.

After all, even we're not killing Ascians by sheer power; every single time we killed one we had to get clever and resourceful. And Gaius is definitely both of those.

I mean, can't we assume the broken masks on what's his face (it's late, sue me) count as confirmed kills as opposed to temp banishments?

Would love to see a short story put out on how the hell he pulled it off then. Cause killing Ascians permanently is kind of a big deal. And he no longer had the resources of the Empire. He was angry terrorists hiding in desert camps at that point.

Getting a hold of white Auracite would be the first hurdle. I HIGHLY doubt he would have summoned a Primal to eat the Ascians soul like we lucked into with Thordan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

Would love to see a short story put out on how the hell he pulled it off then.

---

Same. White auracite's role is simply to prevent their escape - to anchor them. Gaius could have knowledge of the process by having an informant at the Rising Stones, or - even better - he could have knowledge of aetherospiritual containment from restoring the Ultima Weapon and could modify the tech. For a while I was hoping they'd reveal he was still in possession of Sabik and weaponized it against the Ascians somehow.

But it'll be fun to hear the tale, either way.

I still wonder what that heart of Sabik actually is and what happened to it. Its like its completely forgotten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

I still wonder what that heart of Sabik actually is and what happened to it. Its like its completely forgotten.

---

If I remember correctly, Cid theorizes in the beginning of the Sorrow of Werlyt questline that it was a piece of Ultima's auracite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

I still wonder what that heart of Sabik actually is and what happened to it. Its like its completely forgotten.

---

It hasn't been forgotten, it's just no longer relevant to the story because it no longer exists - it was destroyed when the Ultima Weapon exploded, not surprising given it was the weapon's power core (this is why Lahabrea was so annoyed with Gaius, because the Heart was now lost).

Of course, given we now know the Ascians can simply snap their fingers and make anything they like instantly so nothing would have stopped Lahabrea from simply recreating it, but his obvious anger towards it's loss at the time seemed to suggest that probably was not the case then.

I still can't help but find it strange that they decided to make reference to Sabik with the P8S part 2 theme.

Though a this point, I am more inclined to think it was one of those "inconvenient" plot points they decided to just drop instead of trying to elaborate on how black auracite is different from white or some such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It hasn't been forgotten, it's just no longer relevant to the story because it no longer exists - it was destroyed when the Ultima Weapon exploded

---

Quote:

---

The Heart of Sabik seemed very important, but it was never mentioned again. Is it out of play?
Koji Fox: It’s gonna come back. And before [4.0]. That’s all you get!

---

The fact it wasn't destroyed with the Ultima Weapon as of 2016 is what kept me focusing on the "where did it go?" (most of the time just for the lulz).

Conspiracy Theory: Sabik's role was tossed and the Eyes of Nidhogg were brought back, instead, to tie MSQ and raid together (they got feedback that Alexander being isolated was underwhelming compared to the Binding Coil, if I remember right). That said, Twelve know there are even some straight up subtraction retcons I'd be OK with at this point (such as invasive surgery on the 2.x era Ascian cutscenes), so if Sabik was destroyed at Praetorium now, so be it, but ... <pout>

A lot of the most fun uses it could have had died with Zodiark, anyway, as it was alleged to be a "sliver of His power", but you might still be able to tie Sabik, Zodiark, and the High Seraph together and focus on Sabik as a vehicle for the Ultima magick.

pLaNnEd aLL aLoNg!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

A lot of the most fun uses it could have had died with Zodiark, anyway, as it was alleged to be a "sliver of His power", but you might still be able to tie Sabik, Zodiark, and the High Seraph together and focus on Sabik as a vehicle for the Ultima magick.

---

Clearly Golbez has the thirteenth shard of Sabik.

I was intending to be flippant but... maybe? Assuming it's a sundered object and wasn't in Lahabrea's pocket when he dodged the Sundering, or something.