Can we talk about the elephant in the room - Permanent Bans from the Official Forums

I do hope it becomes possible to appeal bans realistically. I know anecdotes can be pretty problematic within a topic like this, but I know many people who would love to be able to get back on the forums to provide actual feedback and engage in the community here again. I’ve seen the argument that “they shouldn’t break the rules then” a lot whilst not taking into any consideration that we’re all capable of making mistakes. Given how very rigid and strict the TOS is in conjunction with how zero-tolerance the Mods can be (especially compared to most other MMO forums nowadays) It’s wilfully ignorant to assume it’s as black and white as that, or that it’s right to be. I’m down for second chances, and third chances, maybe even more, granted the offence wasn’t heinous or truly damaging. I also can’t see the taking into consideration of temporary bans from literal *years* prior to any current ban as a promising way to judge people. Contrary to what some believe, people can and do learn from their mistakes, so please give these people more chances, *real* chances. Many of these banned players are loyal players and customers after all, so showing some compassion would probably do wonders for this game and companies reputation, especially here on the forums of course.

My cousin was banned for weird reasons also, even for something he posted in beta after a ingame GM told him he would get more help posting on forums.
Once he got help someone went into his history who had a vendetta versus him reported the topic which was 3 years old which the topic should of been handled and was banned for name shaming.

4 temp bans and you are perm out of the forums for good to me is a bit harsh I would of rather seen it as 4 temp bans if you don't listen then 1 year after the year unban but if you don't listen the years climb as it would go to 2 years.

cause you have to put in effort to believe the person will change in that amount of years.

my cousin says he doesn't care that he believes it had something to do with the SNK signature he used and it was always being deleted after temp ban all it was about was snk fighters beating up capcom with basically a gif.

said that people report for weird reasons even to get pay back on each other to remove someone on purpose because of grudges and he rather not be apart of that type of community and that he now sticks to reddit.

but I agree with you all trust me.

I got banned in December for 10 days for creating a thread “the Rewards for the Christmas event are “ first word is a (S) last is a (T) and is four letters in total”. I won’t put what I wrote here for obvious reasons but if I remember correctly I used the word 3-4 times. I wasn’t rude to anyone just saying what my opinion of the event was. Never had I had a warning of anything before being playing and being in forum for a few years now. Went straight for a 10 day ban.

Was it just? Wasn’t it? I won’t discuss just wanted to put another players recent experience for others players to know as it is appropriate for this topic.

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Zitat von Jib

I got banned in December for 10 days for creating a thread “the Rewards for the Christmas event are “ first word is a (S) last is a (T) and is four letters in total”. I won’t put what I wrote here for obvious reasons but if I remember correctly I used the word 3-4 times. I wasn’t rude to anyone just saying what my opinion of the event was. Never had I had a warning of anything before being playing and being in forum for a few years now. Went straight for a 10 day ban.

Was it just? Wasn’t it? I won’t discuss just wanted to put another players recent experience for others players to know as it is appropriate for this topic.

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I would consider [your description of the event rewards] to be an obvious "word you don't use on moderated forums". Maybe you'd get away with it in the body of a post if nobody took offence and reported you for it, but that's not the same as actually being allowed to do it, and I'm sure the mods are at least keeping an eye on thread titles at all times.

There are so many other words you can use if you want to complain about the rewards. Say they're rubbish. Say they're awful. It's not remotely hard to substitute a "polite" word and get your exact same intent across.

If you go advanced mode on your own post you should be able to edit the title of a thread you've started. Just thought that should be added here. I didn't see that posted, although I skimmed the first four pages and then ran a search so.. I apologize if its old info now.

Edit:

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Zitat von SpiritMuse

The weird thing about that though is that it doesn't actually change the title of the thread. It just changes the title of the first post in the thread. The original title will still be here on the forum page.

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I feel like I've done it before, but there could be other things at play (like it was moments after posting it live, and long ago, or I'm crazy lol). But I thought people should know that my info is incorrect.

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Zitat von Jib

I got banned in December for 10 days for creating a thread “the Rewards for the Christmas event are “ first word is a (S) last is a (T) and is four letters in total”. I won’t put what I wrote here for obvious reasons but if I remember correctly I used the word 3-4 times. I wasn’t rude to anyone just saying what my opinion of the event was. Never had I had a warning of anything before being playing and being in forum for a few years now. Went straight for a 10 day ban.

Was it just? Wasn’t it? I won’t discuss just wanted to put another players recent experience for others players to know as it is appropriate for this topic.

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You have to put an 'e' at the end to make it FFXIV appropriate.

I got a 10 day ban because I used a word that involved a butt and a hole.

Be careful everyone.

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Zitat von Beckett

You have to put an 'e' at the end to make it FFXIV appropriate.

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That made me laugh. :D

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Zitat von Iscah

I would consider [your description of the event rewards] to be an obvious "word you don't use on moderated forums". Maybe you'd get away with it in the body of a post if nobody took offence and reported you for it, but that's not the same as actually being allowed to do it, and I'm sure the mods are at least keeping an eye on thread titles at all times.

There are so many other words you can use if you want to complain about the rewards. Say they're rubbish. Say they're awful. It's not remotely hard to substitute a "polite" word and get your exact same intent across.

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So as you responded I went back to see the email I received. On the email it says exactly what was written. The title was "Starlight event... sorry". So the bad word was used 3 times in description text. So probably I was reported. Not saying they are wrong, but just to show that the minimum seems to be 10 days ban. No warning. (if you are really curious I can send you a copy of the email I received with the text).

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Zitat von Jib

So as you responded I went back to see the email I received. On the email it says exactly what was written. The title was "Starlight event... sorry". So the bad word was used 3 times in description text. So probably I was reported. Not saying they are wrong, but just to show that the minimum seems to be 10 days ban. No warning. (if you are really curious I can send you a copy of the email I received with the text).

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No need at all to show the email. And I have no idea how the moderation team works, maybe they still did directly see your post and not have to wait for someone to report you over it. Still my initial point remains - it's a word that should be obviously avoided on a moderated forum, and there are so many things you could substitute.

I got a 10 day temp ban, and the reason given to me was...

a post I quoted.

A+ goodwork

I still feel like there are too many inconsistencies with the way bans are handed out. And I’m not even talking about the “this poster was banned because they were reported” versus “this poster wasn’t banned because they weren’t reported” — I’m talking about how some posters will get banned for the slightest mistakes, meanwhile, I’ve reported individuals for extremely vitriolic posts (with those awful bad words in them!) and they go on unscathed.

I just wish there was more consistency.

if you cannot stand censors just use reddit?

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Zitat von Lubu_Mykono

if you cannot stand censors just use reddit?

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When was the last time you took anyone on Reddit seriously?

I rest my case.

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Zitat von Lubu_Mykono

if you cannot stand censors just use reddit?

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The devs don't read reddit. Whether they listen to our feedback or not, it's more likely to be noticed here.

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Zitat von Lubu_Mykono

if you cannot stand censors just use reddit?

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Here is the issue the forums are apart your subscription fee.

If that is the case then the subscription fee should be lowered from 12.99 to 10 bucks. Because if you don't pay you get locked out of forums anyways so I figure hey that is apart my subscription and if I pay money to post on forums then I shouldn't be banned perm.

They have a cuss censor inside the game why not forums? To say the forums ain't apart of the sub fee then why does it lock when I don't pay?

Also might as well stop revealing everyones name by their pictures to because in game fighting happens and since its cross world and people come here to forums and could report them for their post and get them banned for grudges.

History should be locked from other players also this should be stuff only a GM could see on forum.

Perm bans to me are harsh when it happens to put the power in regular players hands and getting people banned for no reason and those reasons are just guessing they report some reasons that might not even be right.

like posting a picture without text and then someone saying they are making fun of a group of people but OP never said nothing but gets banned because someone claims they are making fun of others seen it happen thats bad judgement.

Let me give you a example.

Lets say I get into a heated argument with a player on a different world in a dungeon, he gets upset and decides to get pay back on me because a in game gm does nothing, so he waits on forums for me to post something then waits until I say or do something that might not even be bad but keeps reporting me until I get temp banned and waits the next 3 other times to get rid of me.

I bet you anything it has happen many of times on here also because your world and everything is posted right here for regular players to abuse it and its messed up but it happens.

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Zitat von Shougun

If you go advanced mode on your own post you should be able to edit the title of a thread you've started. Just thought that should be added here. I didn't see that posted, although I skimmed the first four pages and then ran a search so.. I apologize if its old info now.

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The weird thing about that though is that it doesn't actually change the title of the thread. It just changes the title of the first post in the thread. The original title will still be here on the forum page.

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Zitat von SpiritMuse

The weird thing about that though is that it doesn't actually change the title of the thread. It just changes the title of the first post in the thread. The original title will still be here on the forum page.

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Yeah just tested it, you're right. Although I swore I've done it before on a new thread lol (like 1 minute old thread). Maybe there is a time frame that it can be changed? Or forum features were tightened down over time? Next time I start a thread I'll have to see if I can fiddle with the title for a bit.

But thank you for pointing this out, I was (still am to an extent) feeling that you could. Also this just shows how important it is not to put something regrettable in a title lol, if you can't take it back and can get in trouble for putting it out there :p.

This really isn't an issue, and it certainly isn't an elephant in the room. If players don't want to be banned, then they should not break the ToS. It's really that simple.

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Zitat von Eli85

This really isn't an issue, and it certainly isn't an elephant in the room. If players don't want to be banned, then they should not break the ToS. It's really that simple.

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Global companies shouldn't be forcing regional sensitivities on a global audience. Simply criticizing the game in a negative way can get you temporarily suspended.

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Zitat von Deceptus

Global companies shouldn't be forcing regional sensitivities on a global audience. Simply criticizing the game in a negative way can get you temporarily suspended.

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And yet, many, many players have been posting on the official forums for years without a single black mark on their account. The issue is not regional sensitivities, it's asking players to be respectful adults, which should not be a large ask. If players cannot do this, the forums are, quite frankly, a better place without them.

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Zitat von Kazrah

When was the last time you took anyone on Reddit seriously?

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More recent than on the OF.

I've long been of a mind that SE needs to thoroughly scrutinize their forum moderation team on what they're actually doing, and make replacements where necessary. In a lot of situations it really feels like the moderators aren't really supervised and just go full Judge Dredd on anyone that steps out of line. If all of this was free, it wouldn't be a thing, but we ARE paying for the subscription needed to log in on the forums, and by proxy, we're paying to access the forum itself. We aren't just users to be banned at the drop of a hat, we're paying customers. Mind you, I'm not saying no one should be punished for anything, just that the punishments that are dealt out are way too heavy handed and often beyond overkill for the actual offense, which hilariously is often for language commonly used by IN-GAME NPCS. Not only that, but there's no real way to contest anything they hand you. I mean, you CAN appeal for having the ban lifted, but it's your word against the ridiculous moderator(s) that did it in the first place, so nothing ever gets overturned. "Fairness" means nothing to them. They only care about keeping things quiet and under control.

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Zitat von Beckett

You have to put an 'e' at the end to make it FFXIV appropriate.

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I'm actually legit curious if that would actually work or not. Not willing to try though since I've already been banned once for my "aggressive language". Me and my gosh darn it potty mouth.

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Zitat von Eli85

And yet, many, many players have been posting on the official forums for years without a single black mark on their account. The issue is not regional sensitivities, it's asking players to be respectful adults, which should not be a large ask. If players cannot do this, the forums are, quite frankly, a better place without them.

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I got a warning on my account for a post criticizing how I disagree with players having to turn to outside sources with regards to figuring out how to optimize their jobs, and questioned why the game itself doesn't have built in things like rotational help (beyond the Hall of Novice). The reasoning given was literally "anything we deem as something that breaks the rules".

Do tell me how that was me being, in any way, abrasive. There was no foul language used. There was no insulting of other posters. I didn't even word the text in a way to insult the Devs. I simply said that I find it silly we have to turn to outside resources to learn how jobs, because the game teaches us nothing. Other players have been permabanned for joke threads (that are not insulting towards anyone), or for using "a bad word" not even directed at another poster. At some point, it starts to feel a tad bit Draconian.

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Zitat von HyoMinPark

I got a warning on my account for a post criticizing how I disagree with players having to turn to outside sources with regards to figuring out how to optimize their jobs, and questioned why the game itself doesn't have built in things like rotational help (beyond the Hall of Novice). The reasoning given was literally "anything we deem as something that breaks the rules".

Do tell me how that was me being, in any way, abrasive. There was no foul language used. There was no insulting of other posters. I didn't even word the text in a way to insult the Devs. I simply said that I find it silly we have to turn to outside resources to learn how jobs, because the game teaches us nothing. Other players have been permabanned for joke threads (that are not insulting towards anyone), or for using "a bad word" not even directed at another poster. At some point, it starts to feel a tad bit Draconian.

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It is nearly impossible to answer your question without the offending post quoted word for word (and understandable why you would not give it, even if you could). I mean, one reality is, we are dealing with a Japanese company, and the way people in the Americas talk to each other, what is allowed and what isn't, is vastly differently to what is culturally acceptable in Japan.

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Zitat von Eli85

It is nearly impossible to answer your question without the offending post quoted word for word (and understandable why you would not give it, even if you could). I mean, one reality is, we are dealing with a Japanese company, and the way people in the Americas talk to each other, what is allowed and what isn't, is vastly differently to what is culturally acceptable in Japan.

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And they are dealing with a global audience, not just a Japanese audience. They are marketing a product, and they should expect critical feedback about it.

Unfortunately, the developers themselves have zero control over the forums — they are moderated by a third-party. And the “appeal process” that has been provided for players to appeal bans they feel unjustified is a mess that usually leads to nowhere after you get the runaround. I do think that SE should look into whomever they outsource to, because sometimes it gets to the point where you don’t want to bother offering feedback anymore, worried you’ll get a black mark for it even if you word it as politely and as constructively as you can. Not to mention that the warnings and bans dealt out are inconsistent — one person gets banned for a joke thread about Holy... but then another insults an entire server’s community simply because they had a heated disagreement with one or two people from there in an attempt to cause drama and derail the thread, and doesn’t even get touched.

I wouldn't mind if they went back to ruling with an iron fist.
Lately, I find the forums becoming more and more lax.

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Zitat von Eli85

And yet, many, many players have been posting on the official forums for years without a single black mark on their account. The issue is not regional sensitivities, it's asking players to be respectful adults, which should not be a large ask. If players cannot do this, the forums are, quite frankly, a better place without them.

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A friend of mine made all of 20 posts here before he got banned, all the way back in ARR. Not one was remotely abrasive, or even so much as potentially able to be taken as condescending. 2 of his posts, however, did complain about the lack of stat transparency back when it was apparently taboo to discuss stat weights. And so the ban hammer descended.

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Zitat von HyoMinPark

And they are dealing with a global audience, not just a Japanese audience. They are marketing a product, and they should expect critical feedback about it.

Unfortunately, the developers themselves have zero control over the forums — they are moderated by a third-party. And the “appeal process” that has been provided for players to appeal bans they feel unjustified is a mess that usually leads to nowhere after you get the runaround. I do think that SE should look into whomever they outsource to, because sometimes it gets to the point where you don’t want to bother offering feedback anymore, worried you’ll get a black mark for it even if you word it as politely and as constructively as you can. Not to mention that the warnings and bans dealt out are inconsistent — one person gets banned for a joke thread about Holy... but then another insults an entire server’s community simply because they had a heated disagreement with one or two people from there in an attempt to cause drama and derail the thread, and doesn’t even get touched.

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Obviously I cannot speak for S-E, but I seriously doubt that they have a problem with critical feedback. What I think they see — which I tried to touch on — is the differences between culturally accepted practices in the West versus the East. In the West, there is a much higher tolerance for hostile, rude, and disrespectful language and tone. I think it's one of the larger problems with Western society. So for players to accede to Eastern standards — which honestly is just politeness and respect— is not a large ask. I won't go into anecdotal disciplinary decisions, seeing as we do not have the full picture. That said, perusing this thread, seeing what the lion share of the suspensions were for, it's fairly obvious that players just need to heed the ToS and they'll avoid 99% of problems.

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Zitat von Eli85

Obviously I cannot speak for S-E, but I seriously doubt that they have a problem with critical feedback. What I think they see — which I tried to touch on — is the differences between culturally accepted practices in the West versus the East. In the West, there is a much higher tolerance for hostile, rude, and disrespectful language and tone. I think it's one of the larger problems with Western society. So for players to accede to Eastern standards — which honestly is just politeness and respect— is not a large ask. I won't go into anecdotal disciplinary decisions, seeing as we do not have the full picture. That said, perusing this thread, seeing what the lion share of the suspensions were for, it's fairly obvious that players just need to heed the ToS and they'll avoid 99% of problems.

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People are getting banned for using language present in the game itself, and for simply quoting a post that caused someone else to get banned. Let's not blame "cultural differences" here.

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Zitat von Eli85

Obviously I cannot speak for S-E, but I seriously doubt that they have a problem with critical feedback. What I think they see — which I tried to touch on — is the differences between culturally accepted practices in the West versus the East. In the West, there is a much higher tolerance for hostile, rude, and disrespectful language and tone. I think it's one of the larger problems with Western society. So for players to accede to Eastern standards — which honestly is just politeness and respect— is not a large ask. I won't go into anecdotal disciplinary decisions, seeing as we do not have the full picture. That said, perusing this thread, seeing what the lion share of the suspensions were for, it's fairly obvious that players just need to heed the ToS and they'll avoid 99% of problems.

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And I still stand by what I said: SE needs to remember that they are marketing a product to the entire world, a huge portion of it being the Western world. Cultures collide, but those they outsource to moderate these forums shouldn’t swing a banhammer for one slip of the tongue with regards to “naughty words” or for critical feedback of a product. There have been posts that have been inherently polite and respectful that posters get in trouble for, and that are removed; while others that are blatantly rude and disrespectful, and still have posts that are present on the forums to this very day.

Don’t try to strawman with “cultural differences”.

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Zitat von Elamys

People are getting banned for using language present in the game itself [...]

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I may be wrong, but my gut feeling on this is that we only see that language used with rough or unpleasant characters. It sets a tone in storytelling, but that's held to a different standard to how we are expected to speak in a "formal" discussion like this - for lack of a better word.

Everyday standards of speech have shifted and maybe people don't have the same automatic understanding of which words are (still) not acceptable. The lines of "what not to say" seem common-sense to me, but I was brought up being taught not to use those words - and still don't, ever. They are not necessary to express frustration. There's always something you can substitute.

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Zitat von Iscah

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling on this is that we only see that language used with rough or unpleasant characters. It sets a tone in storytelling, but that's held to a different standard to how we are expected to speak in a "formal" discussion like this - for lack of a better word.

Everyday standards of speech have shifted and maybe people don't have the same automatic understanding of which words are (still) not acceptable. The lines of "what not to say" seem common-sense to me, but I was brought up being taught not to use those words - and still don't, ever. They are not necessary to express frustration. There's always something you can substitute.

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Zitat von Elamys

and for simply quoting a post that caused someone else to get banned.

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You left this part out, which is also true. You don't have to use the language yourself, if their swearing ended up in your own post via quoting.

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Zitat von Jijifli

You left this part out, which is also true. You don't have to use the language yourself, if their swearing ended up in your own post via quoting.

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I left it out because I wasn't responding to that bit.

But if I happened to be quoting someone who'd used language they shouldn't, I would probably delete or replace it in the quote (with square brackets) exactly because it shouldn't have been said in the first place, so I'm not going to reframe it in my post where the original poster can't even reconsider and correct it themselves.

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Zitat von HyoMinPark

And I still stand by what I said: SE needs to remember that they are marketing a product to the entire world, a huge portion of it being the Western world. Cultures collide, but those they outsource to moderate these forums shouldn’t swing a banhammer for one slip of the tongue with regards to “naughty words” or for critical feedback of a product. There have been posts that have been inherently polite and respectful that posters get in trouble for, and that are removed; while others that are blatantly rude and disrespectful, and still have posts that are present on the forums to this very day.

Don’t try to strawman with “cultural differences”.

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Then we could instead draw a very real example of cultural elitism. The idea that people all over the world have to do things the way your particular sub-group does them. Something demonstrated in... well... the post I'm responding to.

I actually think the person you responded to is factually incorrect about the culture he's making assumptions over... but that said, his attitude on dealing with that is spot on... this is their house, their norms, that we must abide by.

Folks should seriously consider just how anyone is supposed to even know... their sub-group's social norms... if not from that region. Just because something is 'obvious and normal' to you, doesn't make it so for others. And while you might be used to being able to brow-beat down people from other cultures that live in the same region as you but lack your numbers or influence, don't expect that advantage when you're in somebody else's playhouse.

The idea that "whenever cultures collide only mine has a right to win" is... extremely offensive.

There is always reddit to spoil if someone got a perm ban.

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Zitat von Makeda

Then we could instead draw a very real example of cultural elitism. The idea that people all over the world have to do things the way your particular sub-group does them. Something demonstrated in... well... the post I'm responding to.

I actually think the person you responded to is factually incorrect about the culture he's making assumptions over... but that said, his attitude on dealing with that is spot on... this is their house, their norms, that we must abide by.

Folks should seriously consider just how anyone is supposed to even know... their sub-group's social norms... if not from that region. Just because something is 'obvious and normal' to you, doesn't make it so for others. And while you might be used to being able to brow-beat down people from other cultures that live in the same region as you but lack your numbers or influence, don't expect that advantage when you're in somebody else's playhouse.

The idea that "whenever cultures collide only mine has a right to win" is... extremely offensive.

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They made a english part of the forum, so they should adjust their standards to this specific group of people.
We are not spoiling other parts of the forum with our complains, we are writing in a place specially made for us.

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Zitat von Iscah

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling on this is that we only see that language used with rough or unpleasant characters. It sets a tone in storytelling, but that's held to a different standard to how we are expected to speak in a "formal" discussion like this - for lack of a better word.

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We also see it in descriptions for FATEs, items, quests, etc.

There are no language restrictions in the game itself (other than that you can't intentionally harass someone) so I really don't see why the official forums for the game should be any different.

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Zitat von Makeda

Then we could instead draw a very real example of cultural elitism. The idea that people all over the world have to do things the way your particular sub-group does them. Something demonstrated in... well... the post I'm responding to.

I actually think the person you responded to is factually incorrect about the culture he's making assumptions over... but that said, his attitude on dealing with that is spot on... this is their house, their norms, that we must abide by.

Folks should seriously consider just how anyone is supposed to even know... their sub-group's social norms... if not from that region. Just because something is 'obvious and normal' to you, doesn't make it so for others. And while you might be used to being able to brow-beat down people from other cultures that live in the same region as you but lack your numbers or influence, don't expect that advantage when you're in somebody else's playhouse.

The idea that "whenever cultures collide only mine has a right to win" is... extremely offensive.

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Excuse you. Are you saying that "SE shouldn't punish players for not directly adhering to their cultural standards" is an offensive and elitist thing to say now? Are you basically saying that SE can demand everyone bend to their norms while chastising those who disagree simply because they own this product? Mind you, I'm not defending people that are blatantly rude, but punishing those who are simply critical of a product is wrong, in my opinion.

This is a global product marketed to a variety of different cultures; not just SE's and not just mine. They should be prepared for things that fall outside of their norms, and should not punish for things like I listed above. How they "prepare" for these things - their marketing teams and localization teams are, more than likely, well-versed in the differing cultural norms of other countries. Claiming ignorance is a weak excuse.

I am not saying people are "entitled" to being pompous and rude, but when polite, critical feedback gets silenced, how is that excusable by "cultural differences" or by "You're in SE's playhouse now so you have to bend to their will"? Did you even read what I wrote? Businesses that market products need to take feedback into consideration. I don't fault them for ignoring rudely worded posts, but for polite, well-worded criticisms? Those should be paid attention to so that they can take into consideration ways to improve their product. It's Business 101.

And it's honestly silly that some of the bans handed out are for using language present in the game marketed to us and/or simply quoting a post that contained "foul language". Things like racial slurs I can fully understand, or strong, abrasive language directed at another poster. But sometimes the punishments seem trigger-happy, and there are plenty more that go unpunished for their "bad words".

It's ridiculous that moderation is so inconsistent that players sometimes wonder what is okay to post and what is not. There was another similar thread posted not too long ago that discussed just this. If I can find it, I will gladly link it here.

EDIT: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...esponse-please


But very nice at presuming that I "brow-beat down" people from different cultures than me. Next time, try to make a point without unnecessary ad hominem.

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Zitat von Beckett

We also see it in descriptions for FATEs, items, quests, etc.

There are no language restrictions in the game itself (other than that you can't intentionally harass someone) so I really don't see why the official forums for the game should be any different.

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What FATEs, items, etc. are you thinking of that would be forum-inappropriate language? Not saying you're wrong, just wanting to know what you're referring to because I can't think of any.

(But... don't post the actual quote in that case, I suppose...)