O5N is unfair for pure healer

the irony of it, i wonder how many threads that ended up in same style are out there, this is +1. we just killed one, and here goes another one

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enyalios

Someone care to explain why people think the OPs opinion is ok?

Good DPS: doesn’t miss a GCD, doesn’t stop, does good DPS.

Good tanks: doesn’t miss a GCD, does reasonable DPS for their class and uses CDs as/when needed, holds hate.

Good healer: heals? Stands there when no healing is needed? Just heals. Nothing else

Something screams not right to me when the tanks and DPS don’t get a break yet these “pure healers” think it’s ok to stand around watching us do the work

---

Thread went from "Lol troll" to "Hm, why do healers DPS so hard?" to "This is how I am a good green DPS and why aren't you?"

Basically the same old Healer DPS debate since healers are built that way in XIV.

Back to topic:

We have no Job designed to be a pure healer.
Wea have:

• A Healer with additional high damage skills
• A Healer with sustained damage skills
• A Healer with buff support and low damage skills

I see no Healer Job with artifical low healing power to force it to heal every GCD and oGCD.
Also a "pure Healer" design wouldn't be viable for most content or just undesireable.
Most healing potencies would have to be lower by a good margin in comparsion to the existing healer jobs to get the need of the ABC heals.
But with ABC heals they lack by damage and/or utility in comparsion with the other healers.
So in comparsion with the other heals a "pure Healer" would be extremely underpowered in the healing section, would lack completely any kind of damage dealing and more or less all utility.

If this is satire, ha.

If this isn't satire, HAHAHA

People going full on rere, frothing at the mouths and haven't figured out the OP is a trolling...

Why are all the face palm threads, cringe threads, flame bait and spam threads created by lalafells. Every. Single. Time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevronone

People going full on rere, frothing at the mouths and haven't figured out the OP is a trolling...

---

To be brutally honest, they truly have reached a low point in their lives, if they feel the need to troll these forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

We have no Job designed to be a pure healer.

---

That's mostly because this game is pared down to the limit a MMO can be. Like we don't have to maintain a slow or paralyze on the boss, nor do we have to correct the correct elemental resistance spell for their various attacks. We generally don't need to stop healing to recover MP periodically, or sleep or CC mobs, or even keep an eye out for roaming adds. Heal, dodge, dps. That's it. Sometimes we don't even need to cleanse status.

Usually games with purer healing have a lot more real gameplay than this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

That's mostly because this game is pared down to the limit a MMO can be. Like we don't have to maintain a slow or paralyze on the boss, nor do we have to correct the correct elemental resistance spell for their various attacks. We generally don't need to stop healing to recover MP periodically, or sleep or CC mobs, or even keep an eye out for roaming adds. Heal, dodge, dps. That's it. Sometimes we don't even need to cleanse status.

Usually games with purer healing have a lot more real gameplay than this one.

---

I don't think "pure healers" will do CC, because it is not part of restoring HP or cleansing debuffs.

Meow meow choco troll

This thread is getting a bit out of hand. It's actually kind of weird seeing this sort of discussion get so heated outside the Healer Role subforum, but that's besides the point... I might repeat myself a but but I want to get some points across.

The main arguments I've been seeing in favour of more healing intensive content are "I want to heal more/I don't want to dps" or "other games do it". Okay... So let me address these points at the same time with a simple question: why should SE change FFXIV to fit what you want?

FFXIV Is intended to be casual friendly, and it's built a specific way. Comparing it to other games is fine, but wanting the game to be more like those games is asking for an entirely different game than FFXIV. The game has been out for a while now and still people are wanting the devs to completely change the game? It would turn FFXIV into a different game with the same name. I know a lot of people would hate if the way they played the game they like changed drastically all of a sudden. It would be a terrible move to change how healing works because there are people who play healer and like it how it is... you could complain "but thats not fair. I don't like how it works so why should I have to suffer?" Why? Because that's how the game is designed. Why are you even playing a healer if you dislike it so much that you want how it plays to be changed?

FFXIV has very low healing requirements, which allows for healers to DPS more often than in other games. That's how the game is designed, and that's how it should stay because that's how it was designed. Do you understand what I'm saying? Changing something that doesn't need to be changed should be a very low priority.

Those of us who are pro-healer dps understand the game is designed the way it is and that it's a ridiculous notion that it would change just because we want it to. We see the game for what it is and work with it. We take what we have and run with it, trying to be as useful and efficient as possible. Standing around between heals is the least engaging things you can do in this game. Spamming healing is wasteful and not useful.

If you want to play a game that requires more healing then go find a game that requires you to do more healing. Stop trying to make a game into a different game. You're just being selfish if you think the game should change to fit your own personal desires

only here for the comments heyoooo

18 pages full of trolls trolling trolls. It's great.

oh wait. game design say you gotta DPS cause else you aren't occupied.
i mean seriously, could developers make at least certain fight so extremely healer intensive that none of the healers, except maybe few fflog wankers, get this fight done with a single offensive spell casted

i mean like,
we begin our show with tank buster unltimate, which has to be shared by both tanks and mitigated, and even then boss spams quick autoattacks\(insert_skill_name)series of mid dmg attacks, and so on and so forth. you get teh idea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilentVoice

except maybe few fflog wankers

---

"Elitists are toxic! Respect how other people choose to play! Don't call other people lazy/stupid/other disparaging names or words! Toxic elitist toxic blah blah blah!"

Yeah, sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

"Elitists are toxic! Respect how other people choose to play! Don't call other people lazy/stupid/other disparaging names or words! Toxic elitist toxic blah blah blah!"

Yeah, sure.

---

Ahhhh, shall we start over with me explaining to you how i understand people not being prepared for such game design and how i myself would love to spend 80% uptime in healing, rather than dps?
i mean, until you understand that my issue isn't with people telling healers to DPS, but with developers? =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilentVoice

Ahhhh, shall we start over with me explaining to you how i understand people not being prepared for such game design and how i myself would love to spend 80% uptime in healing, rather than dps?
i mean, until you understand that my issue isn't with people telling healers to DPS, but with developers? =)

---

Oh I've got no problem with your personal desires for what healing should be. I'm personally right there with Vanille I don't think healing should be changed to fit these desires but go right on ahead having them.

My issue is that people can call top-tier players "fflogs wankers" but if I said "lazy casuals" seriously I would be the subject of a witch-hunt.

but good healer dont only heal.. they dps also.

How about you just uninstall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Oh I've got no problem with your personal desires for what healing should be. I'm personally right there with Vanille I don't think healing should be changed to fit these desires but go right on ahead having them.

My issue is that people can call top-tier players "fflogs wankers" but if I said "lazy casuals" seriously I would be the subject of a witch-hunt.

---

I am with Vanille, but since this crap has been a top discussion over the years in this game, i believe it's a problem, cause as you can see so many healers refuse to dps. i gave up on my desires and the game itself tbh (since i recently quit), for even more than just healing reasons. mine was a personal agenda, i loved 2.x as SCH in coils, cause i haven't had as much time to dps as it is now (also i loved SCH identity being as a mitigation healer, rather than burst emergency off healer like it is nowdays). game design makes any decent player understand that the only way to be a good healer is to increase their dps values. i kind of understand why newcomers feel that this is out of hand and that those "fflogs wankers" keep "guiding" them (in a harsh way) to git gut

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

How about you just uninstall.

---

did that a few days ago, i'm just here to annoy people =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilentVoice

git gut

---

It kind of sounds like you're saying because people continue to be bad (because objectively a healer contributing dps is not playing as well as one who is) that SE should adapt the game to their poor play. I don't think so and I think that's an awful outlook to have.

I would say I'm sorry you've quit but honestly I'm not because maybe now you'll find another game that does things the way you like instead of trying to change one that already exists.

Maybe if more "lazy casuals" did this we would see less chatter about healer dps when in reality it shouldn't even have to be a conversation.

(See, me putting it in quotes still doesn't make it sound okay. Still sounds wrong to insult people based on gameplay, yet you keep throwing fflogs wankers out there)

Can someone explain why a bait thread has devolved into an almost 20 pages thread? Are people this gullible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxlStream

Can someone explain why a bait thread has devolved into an almost 20 pages thread?

---

That's standard issue for threads involving healer DPS.

They can go well over 100 pages at a time and it is rumored that if one were to survive over a thousand pages, it would come to life and gain magical powers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AxlStream

Can someone explain why a bait thread has devolved into an almost 20 pages thread? Are people this gullible?

---

Because these types of healers do exist. OP is a troll, but the pure healers in the game are real. And to be fair, there are healers out there who are offended if you ask them to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilentVoice

...
i mean seriously, could developers make at least certain fight so extremely healer intensive that none of the healers, except maybe few fflog wankers, get this fight done with a single offensive spell casted

---

They could...
In theory.

But considering that a fight that healer intensive would prevent a great majority of their playerbase from being skilled enough to realistically participate, it would be an 'Ultimate' level fight...

And I would think that the people who 'only heal' wouldn't be the ones proficient enough at their jobs to qualify for ultimate level content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

And to be fair, there are healers out there who are offended if you ask them to DPS.

---

"Uhm... you don't really need to heal me when I'm over 90% HP, you know?"
"WHAT'S THAT?! I'LL JUST HEAL THE DPS FROM NOW ON! HAVE FUN!"

Or...

"Could you cast some damage spells instead of just standing there doing nothing most of the time I'm not hurt?"
...
"WHAT THE **** DID YOU JUST SAY TO ME ************?! YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB! DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY! Do you even know who I am?! I am the WARRIOR OF LIGHT!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BluexBird

"Uhm... you don't really need to heal me when I'm over 90% HP, you know?"
"WHAT'S THAT?! I'LL JUST HEAL THE DPS FROM NOW ON! HAVE FUN!"

Or...

"Could you cast some damage spells instead of just standing there doing nothing most of the time I'm not hurt?"
...
"WHAT THE **** DID YOU JUST SAY TO ME ************?! YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB! DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY! Do you even know who I am?! I am the WARRIOR OF LIGHT!"

---

LOL...I've lost count of how many times I've found healers doing nothing but healing...I generally not say anything unless things get that bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

They could...
In theory.

But considering that a fight that healer intensive would prevent a great majority of their playerbase from being skilled enough to realistically participate, it would be an 'Ultimate' level fight...

And I would think that the people who 'only heal' wouldn't be the ones proficient enough at their jobs to qualify for ultimate level content.

---

I mean, this is really what it boils down to. When you have players doing Byakko EX on SCH that are both under-healing AND under-DPSing me on AST it's kinda like, "y'know, I see now why the devs are really hesitant to make actually healing in this game more involved/complex than what we have right now". It sucks for people like me who don't find the DPS spam playstyle to be their preferred method of output on healer, but even I kinda feel like it's a lost cause hoping for it to change.

Still, I do wish people would kind of realize how silly it is, that healers have so much free time to do damage, even in raids. Looking at Angered's clear of O8S? Their WHM is literally sitting at 149 DPS casts throughout the entire fight, and 114 healing casts (and this is me being generous and counting Assize as being used for healing, not for damage). So this is more DPSing than healing, on the first day of a fight being released, basically at min ilevel, during progression. Their SCH pulls up similar numbers with regards to casts (I didn't count Embrace since that can be done independently, and will go off without the SCH's input even when someone is below 80% HP).

I'll be honest, if healers had DPS rotations that were even remotely engaging or had other interactions with their kit, this probably wouldn't irritate me as much. But when even hard raid fights are basically me spending more than 50% of my time as AST pushing the same two buttons over and over? Ugh. It's not fun to me, it doesn't make me feel skilled, and even if the devs have no plans to change the current DPS>healing design meta they have they could at least work on making our DPS rotations more satisfying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

<snip>

---

Problem is I strongly disagree with any kind of dps rotation.

Healers need to keep healing first...dps second. People just need to wake up and get up off their healing ass and contribute with DPS.... with just Stone IV and Aero II/III alone I can break noses with the best of them and still manage to heal the party as needed.

making it more complex because its "boring" to do dps would make me just quit healing all together (its complicated enough to handle rapidly changing party dynamics AND DPS)
This mindset of everyone do DPS DPS DPS DPS is infectious and fool-hearty if you ignore the primary purpose of the job...that being..Heal....THEN do damage...and you don't have to do much to make a dent...seriously...very little in fact. Meld some critical in there with determination or whatever you prefer and you'll find yourself getting yelled at for stealing aggro in dungeons (white mage context).

Buff AST for DPS? sure.. i can get behind that..but no more than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If you want to play a game that requires more healing then go find a game that requires you to do more healing. Stop trying to make a game into a different game. You're just being selfish if you think the game should change to fit your own personal desires

---

I hate to contribute to an obvious troll thread, but your post interested me.

Edit / Disclaimer: I have absolutely no problem with Healers being tasked with damage dealing as well. I don't like to sit bored, personally, and while I'd hardly hold myself up to the best of them, I'll cast offensive spells whenever I can. I'm commenting purely on the idea that people should simply accept a game - particularly an MMO - as some sort of static creation that shouldn't fundamentally change over time.

The response I have to this is, why NOT try to make XIV into a different game? Most long-running games of this nature evolve through their lifespan, and such evolution is of great benefit to them. FFXI, as an immediate example, went through at least three paradigm shifts in terms of how leveling was handled (pre-ToAU; ToAU to pre-Abyssea; post-Abyssea). These changes altered preferred party structures, which in turn altered how jobs played. Bard, for instance, was incredibly different pre-ToAU from post-ToAU. Say what you will about each specific change, but it certainly kept the game feeling different every few years. WoW, as another example - which I haven't played, just to clarify - has undergone multiple changes to its Talent system, from Dual Talent Specialization to the Mists of Pandaria revamp. These changes routinely ushered in new playstyles and new options for people.

And finally, FFXIV itself just went through a significant evolution in order to reduce skill bloat. The difference was that, unlike FFXI's evolution or WoW's evolution or the evolution of a variety of other MMOs, FFXIV wasn't very ambitious. Its changes didn't alter HOW we played jobs; they simply made it easier to play them, involving fewer button presses.

And therein lies the problem with FFXIV, and the reason so many people want to change it: unlike FFXI, and unlike WoW, and even unlike FFXIV 1.0, FFXIV really isn't growing. The mechanics of fights evolve over time, which is good, but the core of FFXIV - how jobs are played, and the type of content we do with them - has remained essentially static since the release of ARR. That's a huge problem for the game, and it's one a lot of us are worried about.

So, by all means, feel free to be satisfied with FFXIV as it currently stands, and to not want any sort of real alterations. But it represents a giant deviation from the norm for long-running MMOs, and in my opinion, it's a poor choice.

I'm not sure you can make healer DPS rotations more satisfying. We'd either have to heal purely through OGCDs, or we'd end up breaking our combo often enough to make DPSing pointless unless the fight is totally mastered. And I'm willing to bet a lot of the reason why we have anti DPS healers was due to how awful them trying to make Healer DPS interactive ended up; you could kill your tank easily just by buffering cleric stance too soon or forgetting to put it back off. Dpsing as a healer was a lot less fun in HW, unless the content was so trivial the tank could heal themselves.

I read on that post that someone said for the BLM to stop dps hard on big pulls... Really???? If you are with envy about the blm aoe damage just be one dps and do more damage than the him/she. Also all mmos are the same and all healers should be heal/dps and tanks should tank/dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'm not sure you can make healer DPS rotations more satisfying. We'd either have to heal purely through OGCDs, or we'd end up breaking our combo often enough to make DPSing pointless unless the fight is totally mastered. And I'm willing to bet a lot of the reason why we have anti DPS healers was due to how awful them trying to make Healer DPS interactive ended up; you could kill your tank easily just by buffering cleric stance too soon or forgetting to put it back off. Dpsing as a healer was a lot less fun in HW, unless the content was so trivial the tank could heal themselves.

---

I think Cleric Stance was a pretty poor attempt at arbitrary difficulty, yes. I don't think that's the limit of the devs' brain power when it comes to more engaging healer play, no. Combos also aren't the only way to make healer DPS involve more button presses than 3 (2 if you're AST LOL) - procs can also work, as well as better use of the resource mechanics we have in-game.

For instance, SCH's Aetherflow stacks are a mechanic that impacts both SCH healing and DPS (though a suggestion I would make is for Energy Drain to be a bit more impactful damage-wise so SCHs have a risk factor with a good payoff involved to choose using it over Lustrate/Indom). WHM's Lilies, though? The only "damage" move it affects is Assize, and since Assize also does healing and mana restore no matter the situation there's no real risk for a WHM choosing to burn Lilies on that (obviously WHM Lily mechanic has other issues but this is just an example). AST has Earthly Star as the closest thing to a risk/reward resource, and it's the same as Assize - as long as someone is standing in it and the boss is standing in it it gets value on both ends - the only place where it has a choice element is if the AST is using it for healing out of range of the boss or using it for damage when nobody is standing in it (extremely unlikely, you'll at least heal the tank with it).

Tbh, I'd also like to see some real elements of mana pressure added to this game - with the number of ridiculously strong oGCDs we have coupled with BRD/MCH Refresh and our own mana CDs, managing it is a joke outside of chain raises and those usually spell a wipe to enrage anyway. It's not a total fix to how easy healer DPS is to manage here but it's better than nothing. Even some interaction like Broil doing more damage if Shadowflare is on the target or something might push for a SCH to identify that window when their damage spells have the most value and coordinate with their co-healer in a raid so they can maximize it (while IMO not really having a huge penalty for less-skilled healers who don't optimize like that).

I think there are options, suffice it to say. It's not like I'm advocating for 5 extra DPS buttons to spam that all have to be comboed together in order with no interruptions in-between - there's a line between engagement and tedium, and I acknowledge that. But are healers really having fun using 1-2 DoTs and a filler, or putting a regen effect on the tank and spamming a singular AOE? I feel like if SE wants to continue the design trend of healers in this game being damaging hybrids they ought to just embrace it and make the "damage" aspect a full-fledged part of our kit, with actual interaction to it.

Cleric Stance was never an attempt at increased difficulty - in fact if anything it was poor foresight on the devs part on not realising what the community would do with that skill. Towards the end it was expected for healers to jump in and out of cleric stance to maximise dps. I personally found the whole system clunky and unpleasant - and by the time I got used to it, they removed it. Thing is, Yoshi P did say he never intended for healers to have that pressure put on them when they're supposed to 'heal' first and foremost rather than worry about being in the right stance etc.

However in terms of healing, i do think the devs expect healers to use all of their skills and it's silly (and I would think quite boring/lazy) not to throw on a dot or dps when you can. As a scholar I absolutely love being able to help with dps with dots/bane etc along with broil and with just pure heals, I would likely stop being a healer quite simply because it wouldn't be very interesting.

The developers have backed themselves into a 'balancing corner' with healer. What this means is that very little feedback on healers will actually be taken into account.

If healers were changed to be 'pure healers', they'd be standing around doing nothing for the majority of the game and eventually be replaced with Red Mages / Paladins (the healing might suck but at least they can contribute dps every now and then)

If healers were given a dps rotation their damage output would have to increase from what it is now (otherwise you're putting in more effort for literally no reward, and even less people would roll healer). In this scenario, healers could probably replace dps comfortably - at least in most content that isn't savage or ultimate (which is the majority of the game).

Even the extremely common but popular concept of a healer that heals through dealing damage just can't be balanced. Either the dps is too high to warrant also healing from it, or the dps is so low that it doesn't warrant doing. If all of the healer's dps abilities generate healing, I shouldn't need to explain how this would be very difficult to balance in a dps-oriented game like XIV. If only a few / one or two dps abilities generate healing, how can the job match it's supposed identity? In a middle ground where it does medium dps and thus medium healing, what would stop people from stacking the job and meeting the dps and healing requirements simultaneously? Why take anything other than 1 or 2 tanks and 6 healers who are also dps?

FFXIV's battle system is entirely 'dps' based; this goes for all jobs and all roles. If you are doing no damage on any job you instantly become a huge dead weight to the party, regardless of what you're doing. As far as I'm aware, there is literally no content that ever has or will exist in the game where an individual can take on a dedicated healing or support role unless you count pre-4.0 PvP, and even then dealing damage is now crucial for every role (healers have additional effects added to dps abilities such as granting Aetherflow stacks or Crowd Control).

It's very unfortunate that FFXIV will never have a truly engaging 'healing' system as there is for 'dps'; personally I'm one of those filthy rats who likes being a healer because they're passive and supporting - a healer like a doctor or nurse- not because they're combat medics / soldiers / 'higher skill'. Seeing XIV forgo that somewhat entrenched MMO identity of healers being supportive and pacifistic, choosing to help instead of kill, really feels like they're leaving a great big hole that a lot of players like myself won't ever see filled.

All in all, there's next to nothing the developers can do to ever bring a 'pure healer' class/role to XIV; it's simply no longer possible unless someone here is willing to volunteer to provide the resources to create A Realm Reborn: But This Time With Real Healers

Someone mentioned earlier an interesting difference of FFXIV's mechanic that affects healers. We don't need to keep debuffs/buffs going in contant for certain bosses. To give healers dynamic gameplay, we just got our own attacks instead.

I'm all for increasing the outgoing damage in general from mobs just so all the lazy dogs self-identifying as 'pure healers' don't get the luxury of standing around doing nothing. However, I'll go right ahead and put money on the fact that all it's going to accomplish is cause the very same players to whine that their role is now too demanding after requiring more than 5 apm, and that their paper-thin bullshit defense of "I swear I wouldn't stand around if I had to do more healing!!!1 XD" turns out to be nothing but dribble.

OP might be using the most low-hanging, obvious bait imaginable, but do go ahead and answer for us, 'pure healers', do the DPS aspects of your kit only function when you don't have other people to do the work for you? How DO you get past the ghosts in O5? Do you just sit in the carriage with your thumbs up your asses, endlessly healing yourselves until the party outside has finished up? Don't make me laugh.

"pure healers" get me killed sitting around doing nothing far more often than "dps healers". I'm sure some of them really want a class that only heals, but a lot of them just want an excuse to not do anything and don't pay attention as a result. I remember having a healer argue with a dps about how it wasn't his job to do damage. My health dipped dangerously low to entire dungeon and I died twice with him in a nearly full mp bar.

Most healers I play with mix damage in though, I don't see those very often.