Please nerf RDM!

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

no class should be perfect all around, each should have some setback, just like having some advantage over others..

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SAM's drawback is that if you want to be worth a raid slot, you need to be absolutely pitch perfect with not a single misstep in kenki and Sen management. One small error drops your dps like a rock, at which point you're better served bringing a monk instead, to say nothing of the fact dying hits you harder as a SAM than anyone else.

You truly believe dying on SAM is more punishing than dying on DRG or SMN? I can't say I agree with that one.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

You truly believe dying on SAM is more punishing than dying on DRG or SMN? I can't say I agree with that one.

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I do, after a fashion. Even if they die, they still have Dragon Sight/Litany/Devotion to contribute to their party, though Devotion needs a buff, none of which are 100% requisite of you to be at full power to use them. SAM? No such luck. The second you die is the moment you become a massive liability to the team, because you have no way to contribute to your team other than your extremely hampered personal deeps.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I do, after a fashion. Even if they die, they still have Dragon Sight/Litany/Devotion to contribute to their party, though Devotion needs a buff, none of which are 100% requisite of you to be at full power to use them. SAM? No such luck. The second you die is the moment you become a massive liability to the team, because you have no way to contribute to your team other than your extremely hampered personal deeps.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/RHiD0K65NxxLO/giphy.gif

So... what I'm reading is everyone else's DPS is negligible when they have weakness because they have buffs.

Losing 3 eyes out of 4 from death? You're done after that. You die right before a demi-bahamut window? You mind as well go make a sandwich. You have to resummon the pet, start from zero (hope aetherflow isn't on CD!) with no MP to push damage with Ruin III outside Dread Trance.

Yes. All you bring is damage but keep in mind the jobs I've mentioned deal much, much less damage on weakness from a resulting death because of how their job mechanics work. Their raid utility does not make up for their lack of damage. Their damage is STILL part of the rDPS. Dying on SAM sucks but I get back up and still sustain respectable damage because it's SAM. Dying on SMN before a Demi-Bahamut? I probably shouldn't even be here.

Honestly, I just don't think it would be a good idea to repeat the series of nerfs they implemented to BRD that continued into Heavensward with RDM...

I've seen a lot of people mention that BLM had no raid utility. But its unlimited access to mana basically means it is the only class that has a free "goad" in Mana Cede. Sure it's not exclusive, but it is something that they do bring to the table with no cost to them other than maybe one cast in there rotation.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I do, after a fashion. Even if they die, they still have Dragon Sight/Litany/Devotion to contribute to their party, though Devotion needs a buff, none of which are 100% requisite of you to be at full power to use them. SAM? No such luck. The second you die is the moment you become a massive liability to the team, because you have no way to contribute to your team other than your extremely hampered personal deeps.

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You should play SMN and see what happens if you die. You may as well be any other job at that point.

Summoners, actually, have MUCH higher mobility than Red Mages do. Here's why:

Your dots don't care if you're moving. They keep ticking. Also Bio is an instant cast if it's about to fall off.

Your pet doesn't care if you're moving. It will keep attacking while you move.

You have access to Ruin 2 which enables you to instant cast your primary damage spell for slightly more MP.

Red Mage has dual cast enabling it to move for one GCD until it has to start casting again. You have no DOTs so as soon as you stop casting, you stop dealing damage.

I'd also point out those first two points also apply to summoners raising party members. Red Mages literally stop doing all damage when they raise. Summoners are still putting out damage even if they have to hard cast a raise.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Summoners, actually, have MUCH higher mobility than Red Mages do. Here's why:

Your dots don't care if you're moving. They keep ticking. Also Bio is an instant cast if it's about to fall off.

Your pet doesn't care if you're moving. It will keep attacking while you move.

You have access to Ruin 2 which enables you to instant cast your primary damage spell for slightly more MP.

Red Mage has dual cast enabling it to move for one GCD until it has to start casting again. You have no DOTs so as soon as you stop casting, you stop dealing damage.

I'd also point out those first two points also apply to summoners raising party members. Red Mages literally stop doing all damage when they raise. Summoners are still putting out damage even if they have to hard cast a raise.

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Red Mage also has two powerful ocds with short cds that are pretty much frontloaded dots.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Red Mage also has two powerful ocds with short cds that are pretty much frontloaded dots.

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By that logic, ALL abilities and weaponskills are "frontloaded dots". the heck kind of rebuttal is that? That's reaching so hard, Inspector Gadget would be envious.

Why does everyone cry about things that don't need a nerf?

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

Losing buffs on SAM is no where near as punishing as losing greased lightning III; what are you talking about.

This is coming from someone who plays both MNK and SAM.

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How so? It's essentially the same thing, slightly lower numbers I suppose, as on sam it's 20% and 10% vs 30% and 15%. To say it's not similar is insane, it even takes around the same amount of time to get them back. Unless you want to waste a cooldown on it on SAM, in which case said person should probably find another class. XD

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Originally Posted by KuroTenshi

Unless you want to waste a cooldown on it on SAM, in which case said person should probably find another class. XD

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Yeah, using Meikyo for buffs is the biggest DPS loss you can field.

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Originally Posted by MidnightTundra

Losing buffs on SAM is no where near as punishing as losing greased lightning III; what are you talking about.

This is coming from someone who plays both MNK and SAM.

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I mean, I've mained MNK since ARR launch till recently and I think it's pretty similar.

GL is absolutely a more significant loss as a raw damage buff but there are a lot more factors.

- The fact that GL is both the speed and damage buff works in its favor
- Dragon Kick reapplied much faster than Yukikaze will be in priority (balanced a bit by alternate sources of the slashing debuff)
- Mainly GL upkeep has gotten many QoL improvements so that you don't lose it or you can get it back faster.

There are very few situations where you can't, at the very least, Form Shift to Coerl and basically start at GL1 with DK and Twin snakes immediately following. In the few situations that happen, Perfect Balance should be up.

If we're talking going from zero to GL3 without using anything, MNK is far more punished for sure. But in practice and with competence in planning around the fight, they are very similar. SAM doesn't have tools to avoid ramp up like PB, Form Shift or Riddle of Earth work for MNK (that is not how you use Meikyo Shisui), which is why it evens out despite MNK's longer base ramp up.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Yeah, using Meikyo for buffs is the biggest DPS loss you can field.

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Who does that?!?!?!? This trigger me to a whole new level

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Summoners, actually, have MUCH higher mobility than Red Mages do. Here's why:

Your dots don't care if you're moving. They keep ticking. Also Bio is an instant cast if it's about to fall off.

Your pet doesn't care if you're moving. It will keep attacking while you move.

You have access to Ruin 2 which enables you to instant cast your primary damage spell for slightly more MP.

Red Mage has dual cast enabling it to move for one GCD until it has to start casting again. You have no DOTs so as soon as you stop casting, you stop dealing damage.

I'd also point out those first two points also apply to summoners raising party members. Red Mages literally stop doing all damage when they raise. Summoners are still putting out damage even if they have to hard cast a raise.

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TBH, after reading that, and even as playing a SMN of my own, he makes a valid point. Are there situations we as a SMN need to stand still and cast? Absolutely. I mean if you're moving the entire time as a SMN then its a DPS loss, but when compared to BLM, it's punished the hardest for having to move. As of now the entire DoM jobs are jacked up.

Personally in my opinion (see, it's an opinion. Learn to disagree or agree, but it's part of being able to converse) I see the ratings should go:

BLM should go back to being the King of Single target DPS for Magic, 2nd in AOE Damage, with the only utility being giving Mana to healers (even tho its a role skill). Honestly I also feel their damage should be on par at least to some extent to SAM

SMN needs a buff, like back, and deserves to be King of AoE again, because it only makes logical sense compared to RDM and BLM, with their utility and (GIVE US BACK SUSTAIN and at least buff Bane a bit, I mean geez)

RDM should be 2nd only to BLM in single target DPS, and the Jack of All Trades, with the lowest in AOE damage, but has the highest utility in being able to raise and cure. But even with that, having to stop to Raise or Cure anyone, would be the same as if a BLM were able to do the same thing, a huge DPS loss regardless of mobility or damage.

So personally, RDM feels fine where it is, BLM and SMN are in need of buffs if anything (esp SMN)

SE has spoken why is this thread even still going no rdm nerfs in the near future , you guys make me hate whoever created fflogs nobody cares let people enjoy the jobs the way it is and get over it

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

SE has spoken why is this thread even still going no rdm nerfs in the near future , you guys make me hate whoever created fflogs nobody cares let people enjoy the jobs the way it is and get over it

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Which is good, and which is also why I dont understand why all these posts keep coming up. They already stated RDM is meant to do what it's doing now basically. So i dont get all the uproar and hate.

I wish people would stop saying SMN would be fine if it goes back to being the casual dungeon bongofest AoE king again - please look outside your expert roulettes and realize that a specialty niche like that has no value in about 90% of the raid fights SE designs. I'd hazard that every class needs to be useful in a raid environment first long before a dungeon one, since dungeons aren't tooled around optimal performance and you're "guaranteed" a slot by virtue of using the DF. You don't have that luxury in a progression raid environment.

It's not exactly relevant to the whole "nerf RDM" discussion, but I keep seeing buffed AOE being being brought up as a SMN "fix" when in reality it wouldn't fix us at the level of gameplay where job selection actually matters.

SMN needs a whole lot of fixing before it is viable again.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

SE has spoken why is this thread even still going no rdm nerfs in the near future , you guys make me hate whoever created fflogs nobody cares let people enjoy the jobs the way it is and get over it

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What? Where can I find where SE said that RDM is as intended?

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Originally Posted by Meng_Qing

What? Where can I find where SE said that RDM is as intended?

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It was stated in the live letter that RDM and SAM are not getting nerfed. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Sardonia

It was stated in the live letter that RDM and SAM are not getting nerfed. Thanks

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They did say they might look at vercure, but that could mean nothing or something. It is that word "might" that is at issue. Besides that RDM is as it should be.

Yeah low risk high reward.

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

They did say they might look at vercure, but that could mean nothing or something. It is that word "might" that is at issue. Besides that RDM is as it should be.

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Vercure alone is not what makes RDM ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

Yeah low risk high reward.

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So play RDM then?

My personal opinion as to why RDM is op is because it's a new class and they want people to play it. I think they fully well know just how good it is, but they spent a lot of time and effort into the class and want to see many people playing it before bringing it down to the other classes' levels.

Fun fact about Red Mage: Pressing nothing but Jolt II/Impact the entire time for 3 minutes gives you around 2500 dps. If you use your ocds every time they're available alongside that then it jumps to 3000. You can do 3000 dps with only 4 buttons.

Something I found amusing.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Fun fact about Red Mage: Pressing nothing but Jolt II/Impact the entire time for 3 minutes gives you around 2500 dps. If you use your ocds every time they're available alongside that then it jumps to 3000. You can do 3000 dps with only 4 buttons.

Something I found amusing.

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Well, it is the easiest class to play after all.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Fun fact about Red Mage: Pressing nothing but Jolt II/Impact the entire time for 3 minutes gives you around 2500 dps. If you use your ocds every time they're available alongside that then it jumps to 3000. You can do 3000 dps with only 4 buttons.

Something I found amusing.

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Want some more fun? Impact is just 30 more potency than Jolt II (270 instead of 240). I believe you would have a very close overall dps by just using Jolt II then. So you could speak about 3 buttons.
But... I believe a RDM would be useless with only those 3 buttons.

His system is about getting his red magic the faster he can, which is why the other skills have close potency to the basic skill which is Jolt II.
VerStone/Fire = 270 potency, 9 total magic points.
VerWind/Thunder = 300 potency, 11 total magic points.
Jolt II = 240 potency, 6 total magic points.
Impact = 270 potency, 8 total magic points.

I believe the different potencies to be here to show a pattern to understand to get the most black and white magic in a short time.
Too bad VerCure doesn't provide White magic and VerRaise Black magic (making dead revive is kinda black magic ;) )

OP must be very disappointed that RDM did not get nerf on 4.05 patch note

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Originally Posted by MelvinK

OP must be very disappointed that RDM did not get nerf on 4.05 patch note

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In a way, they did. The mana glitch was removed.

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Originally Posted by MelvinK

OP must be very disappointed that RDM did not get nerf on 4.05 patch note

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• An issue wherein the effects of the Red Mage ability Acceleration would apply to Verflare and Verholy.
• An issue wherein the amount of black mana and white mana consumed would be incorrect when performing some of the Red Mage actions under certain conditions.
• An issue wherein the Red Mage would start content with white mana remaining when queuing for content under certain conditions.

I am glad to see the mana glitch be resolved, should hopefully see RDM Dps drops down in the 90th percentile since you can't abuse this anymore?

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

• An issue wherein the effects of the Red Mage ability Acceleration would apply to Verflare and Verholy.
• An issue wherein the amount of black mana and white mana consumed would be incorrect when performing some of the Red Mage actions under certain conditions.
• An issue wherein the Red Mage would start content with white mana remaining when queuing for content under certain conditions.

I am glad to see the mana glitch be resolved, should hopefully see RDM Dps drops down in the 90th percentile since you can't abuse this anymore?

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I doubt it. Those were exploitable under very specific conditions. Unless the big deal youre all crying about is FFLogs, and the part of the community that tends to force bloated DPS numbers, by exploiting things like this. Fpr instance, ive never walked into an instance with white mana sitting there, etc.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I doubt it. Those were exploitable under very specific conditions. Unless the big deal youre all crying about is FFLogs, and the part of the community that tends to force bloated DPS numbers, by exploiting things like this. Fpr instance, ive never walked into an instance with white mana sitting there, etc.

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It was..... really easy to exploit lmao, as soon as I heard about it myself from a RDM main friend, i tried it out personally, and was surprised about how consistently you could pull it off.

Did everyone use it? No.

Did the top % of people use it? High Likelihood

Will it affect overall statistics re: DMG done ? Yes.

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

• An issue wherein the effects of the Red Mage ability Acceleration would apply to Verflare and Verholy.
• An issue wherein the amount of black mana and white mana consumed would be incorrect when performing some of the Red Mage actions under certain conditions.
• An issue wherein the Red Mage would start content with white mana remaining when queuing for content under certain conditions.

I am glad to see the mana glitch be resolved, should hopefully see RDM Dps drops down in the 90th percentile since you can't abuse this anymore?

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I learned about it. Decided i didn't want to base my play style around an obvious cheat that would be patched. I was an avid user of the good bugged dissipation too. ;[

Maybe, with the fall of balance and the removal of some relative glitches, percentiles will normalize.

I Do Not Partake In Fflogs So I Heard About this exploit on the forums, Never learned or used it So when's the servers go live I expect the same Rdm is op tears to flow

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Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

• An issue wherein the effects of the Red Mage ability Acceleration would apply to Verflare and Verholy.
• An issue wherein the amount of black mana and white mana consumed would be incorrect when performing some of the Red Mage actions under certain conditions.
• An issue wherein the Red Mage would start content with white mana remaining when queuing for content under certain conditions.

I am glad to see the mana glitch be resolved, should hopefully see RDM Dps drops down in the 90th percentile since you can't abuse this anymore?

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That's not a nerf if it wasn't intended in the first place. But now people will finally stop complaining. So I'm happy they fixed that.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/guides...-list#/slide/1
I guess that's With the glitch? It's got some age to it but if it's true I dont get what people are complaining about really..