#DeleteSmn aka "Here's where you can shove your Bahamut" thread

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Originally Posted by seraseth

Of course in 4.0 they're removing the subjob req and cross class skills, so it's entirely possible that's the first step towards removing classes entirely in 5.0
So then starting smn towards more summon less dot, could be prep for a more 'summoner' job in 5.0 if they ditch classes.

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But as of current information, classes are still in the game and the spells and abilities are still drawn from there. So as long as classes are in game, their "core" skills still remain in those classes. You can't do anything but jump, battle litany, and pointlessly use blood of the dragon if not for the class skills. If you're going to ignore the class and try to say buff/nerf, stick to the jobs from 3.x onwards for now.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Except that summoner is already headed in that direction with the new changes. Just because it stems from the arcanist sub class doesn't mean they won't be Summoners that focus on their summons to deal damage. I'm not really following your logic of "Because arcanist".

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Only use job actions in the dragoon menu and tell me how successful you are. No true thrust combo, impulse combo, none of that. By ignoring arcanist its basically what you're saying. Arcanist is still currently in the game, so its class actions are still just as "core" as the lancer's class actions. That's what I'm saying. They're not balancing everything together properly, but gutting the old and trying to make the new the only thing that matters.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Only use job actions in the dragoon menu and tell me how successful you are. No true thrust combo, impulse combo, none of that. By ignoring arcanist its basically what you're saying. Arcanist is still currently in the game, so its class actions are still just as "core" as the lancer's class actions. That's what I'm saying. They're not balancing everything together properly, but gutting the old and trying to make the new the only thing that matters.

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I never said anything about ignoring the sub-class that summoner stems from. I'm not saying that they should ignore the abilities Summoners get from arcanist,I'm saying that they should feel more like actual summoners whree their egis have more impact. Their kit is perfectly fine, I'm not saying they should remove their dots that they gain from art, just that i'd like to feel like a actual summoner with more damage and impact tied behind summons instead of so much emphasis put on their strong aoe dots. That is why i feel like the new mechanic with demi-bahamut is a step in the right direction of feeling like a actual summoner.

My question is, if they're going to make SMN more pet focused, what are they going to do for the people who like being dot mages? Will they get a new job to suit their needs?

I'm fine with all the numbers & pet focus but is no one gonna be bothered with the punishment we get if we miss an aetherflow? This is already the case in HW, but it gets even worse in SB, since SMN now entirely relies on bahamut trance for burst dmg.

Even expert players will miss an aetherflow once in a while due to silly hand movement, let alone new players. Yet you can potentially waste 2 stacks of AF & 1 DWT session for a silly mistake. If they wanna raise the skill floor, why not make AF not losing a stack or not able to cast at all if you happen to use it on something useless? I feel like that's just QoL stuff we've been missing since the start of HW...

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

Also, our pet skills were also nerfed (except Ifrit).

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That's topaz and emerald carbuncle, not titan and garuda.

Carbuncles always had lower potencies than egis.

All you amateur mathematicians out there realize that all this is still subject to change until the 16th, right? Right?

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Originally Posted by AsakuraVN

I'm fine with all the numbers & pet focus but is no one gonna be bothered with the punishment we get if we miss an aetherflow? This is already the case in HW, but it gets even worse in SB, since SMN now entirely relies on bahamut trance for burst dmg.

Even expert players will miss an aetherflow once in a while due to silly hand movement, let alone new players. Yet you can potentially waste 2 stacks of AF & 1 DWT session for a silly mistake. If they wanna raise the skill floor, why not make AF not losing a stack or not able to cast at all if you happen to use it on something useless? I feel like that's just QoL stuff we've been missing since the start of HW...

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Since Bane is garbage, you should hit it less often anyway. Thus, less miss.

Since you have only two DoT, not keeping them up would be very detrimental to your DPS, so, that plus the buff to Tri-disaster should lessen the number of times where you miss Fester.

Another thing to note is that now, you can't get more than 3 stacks. Would they be stacks of Aether flow or trail. Not more than 3 total. It's way easier not to get confused and pressing Aetherflow too soon or something like that.

Last thing, you should burn your Aetherflow way more quickly now that Fester and Painflare are on 5s cooldown. Meaning that the case where you'd press Aetherflow before having finished using your previous stacks should also happen less often.

So, yes, the punishment is worse, but it should happens less frequently.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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Case in point, a mistake is something we shouldn't do to begin with, & by nature, has silly reasons, like a simple mis-click or wrong reflex. There's nothing to learn from that, it happens & it always will.

My point is, the dev already said themselves that they'd prefer rewarding higher skill play than punishing mistakes. Then why not try to improve the QoL instead of worsening the punishment? Even if it should happen less, making each of those mistakes even more impactful isn't exactly any better & completely goes against their design point.

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Originally Posted by AsakuraVN

Case in point, a mistake is something we shouldn't do to begin with, & by nature, has silly reasons, like a simple mis-click or wrong reflex. There's nothing to learn from that, it happens & it always will.

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This. So much this. The amount of times I've swapped from one class to another, gone into a dungeon, then reflexed off my previous class (eg going from SCH to AST, my bars are set up differently to account for the nuances of the 2 jobs), causing me to hit the wrong button and use the wrong ability... is unreal...

SMN will be fine, check this speculative piece from Hai Hai:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...culation_piece

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Without the drop in potency per extended mob, Bane is already nerfed ~30% simply due to DoTs being 80 potency vs 110 potency.

The only real nerf.. so a 50% nerf in Shadowflare isn't a nerf? How about require procs to have 200 po........ .

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There's a difference between raw potency and potency per GCD. Seems like you don't understand the latter.

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Originally Posted by AsakuraVN

Case in point, a mistake is something we shouldn't do to begin with, & by nature, has silly reasons, like a simple mis-click or wrong reflex. There's nothing to learn from that, it happens & it always will.

My point is, the dev already said themselves that they'd prefer rewarding higher skill play than punishing mistakes. Then why not try to improve the QoL instead of worsening the punishment? Even if it should happen less, making each of those mistakes even more impactful isn't exactly any better & completely goes against their design point.

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The punishment being bigger is a side-effect of the new way the job will be played in 4.0. I don't think it's intended. Still, it should happen less often (and it's currently already quite rare).

The only two ways to make it less impactful is either to remove the punishment as a whole (giving a trail even if Fester or Bane are missed), or changing how Aetherflow works to something like "gives you one stack and 5% MP, cooldown 20s". And if keeping track of a 20s CD is too hard, making it a passive trait that will automatically give you a stack every 20s. Both up to 3, of course.

But I think that'd be overkill. Missing a Fester or a Bane is way less frequent than losing your stacks as a MNK, your Dragon blood as a DRG, etc. So my opinion is that the punishment of being locked out of DT for 1mn max is fine. You still have your DoT, your pet, your Ruin spam and your utility, the rest of your stacks, so... heh.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

There's a difference between raw potency and potency per GCD. Seems like you don't understand the latter.

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It's pretty baffling, at least for single target. With my current costs/GCDs:


How can people say turning a 2.82s GCD into a 60s oGCD is a nerf? Yes, you lose 250 pot per 60s or, for easier numbers, 750 pot per 3 minutes. But therefore you get 6*2,82s = 7,2*2,35s Casts.
In 3 Minutes you lost 750 pot by Shadowflare, but you got 7 GCDs of Ruin, which is at least 560 pot. You also saved 4242 MP, so we can turn 4 of those 7 Ruin1 in Ruin3 (so instread of 560 we look at 840 pot, with 150 pot for ruin3 applied)

So the overall gain after 3 minutes with these changes (without taking any ruin buff or ruin4 into account) is about 90 potency. That's not a nerf.

AoE? Ye, that's a nerf, assuming you recast Shadowflare at least 2 times per add group. We'll see if that levels out with other changes, or if we are nerfed in AoE in that regards as well.. Couldn't care less, we're totally OP now anyway.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

All you amateur mathematicians out there realize that all this is still subject to change until the 16th, right? Right?

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Yes, but look at how little changed between this time and early access for 3.0. Not much of it really changed until 3.1

We also can only go off of what we know. So is this all speculation? Yes, but its all we have to go off of right now.

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Originally Posted by AsakuraVN

I'm fine with all the numbers & pet focus but is no one gonna be bothered with the punishment we get if we miss an aetherflow? This is already the case in HW, but it gets even worse in SB, since SMN now entirely relies on bahamut trance for burst dmg.

Even expert players will miss an aetherflow once in a while due to silly hand movement, let alone new players. Yet you can potentially waste 2 stacks of AF & 1 DWT session for a silly mistake. If they wanna raise the skill floor, why not make AF not losing a stack or not able to cast at all if you happen to use it on something useless? I feel like that's just QoL stuff we've been missing since the start of HW...

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Or they can give both Fester and Bane base potencies (50? Or maybe even less) just to make sure that no stacks are wasted even if someone "fat fingers" those two. It will still punish our DPS if we make a mistake or two but it won't be as severe.

My thoughts are that I am bummed if the aoe changes go in (Japanese tool tips are countering the English ones with a number of changes.), but I am actually excited about the rest. I know many will see it as more boring, but I don't think so. There were many nay sayers when DWT was leaked. At this point I say take everything lightly and don't jump to conclusions.

On another note if we are speculating, why has no one mentioned the new stat that replaces Accuracy. That should also be factored into all of this because that is true dps stat now and increase our damage too.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

That's topaz and emerald carbuncle, not titan and garuda.

Carbuncles always had lower potencies than egis.

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As I mentioned, these were the skills Garuda and Titan were using and it shows the carbuncle abilities because they were transmoged. You could try and contact the head of the FFXIV subReddit if you don't believe me (he's the one who provided the information)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...n_pet_actions/

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

As I mentioned, these were the skills Garuda and Titan were using and it shows the carbuncle abilities because they were transmoged. You could try and contact the head of the FFXIV subReddit if you don't believe me (he's the one who provided the information)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...n_pet_actions/

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Garuda's skill icons still appear when you glamour carbuncle over it, the potencies are literally the same as the carbuncles, and those screenshots are missing Enkindle specifically for the wind and earth summons, yet Ifrit's enkindle is there, this all points out that they are not egis. If you check in-game those are exactly the same icons for carb summons (not glamour) also missing enkindle.

http://i.imgur.com/ux6986G.png

I'm not saying that you're lying, I'm saying that probably there was a confusion somewhere down the line, they were using a test client after all and they had to check every single job so missing minor stuff like this wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

Just bumping for posterity and as I told you so...

Look more QQing over something we all know was coming! Get over and move on, money on sum still pulls good ## all the same.

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

Just bumping for posterity and as I told you so...

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That, or you are just bored and want to necromance an old topic for a diskussion to kill time.

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Originally Posted by Tharia

That, or you are just bored and want to necromance an old topic for a diskussion to kill time. Serious an over two week old topic from a Summoner that is still lvl 60?

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No, it's the reason I'm still level 60. Smn was my main job since 2.0 release and with the change I saw coming (that very few people actually believed me regarding) I decided to not level my favorite job because it had changed too much to an extreme I was not happy with in 4.0.