Cleric Stance Discussion - Is it needed?

Casual elitists do not want cleric stance to disturb their afk netflix "privilige".

I believe a good way to make people less scared of using CS would be to turn the cooldown around, instead of having a 5 seconds cooldown when you turn it on have it when you turn it off, this way people would be less scared of screwing up

I love love love CS, I love the way it's made in this game, it's makes everything challenging. That's what CS is supposed to do as Yoshi P said himself that healers are supposed to just heal, that's what we are.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Considering that healer DPS is completely left out of the equation of fights is what makes it meta, not strategic.

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I think you are misquoting the developers on what is actually meant by "left out of equations". Healer DPS is left out when calculating the minimum viable output, which means this is the calculation for the least amount of effort that a DPS should put out in in order to clear. As a team, these numbers can be spread out to healers and tanks when opportunity or necessity arises, which in raid content (especially with a low ilvl) will happen quite a lot. The reason for this is that if they did include calculations for healer DPS it would put too much stress on DPS and tanks when healers don't DPS, and this is exactly how Gordias was designed.

Basically, you can use the "healers aren't counted in equations" argument only if you intend to meet the standard of minimum viable output, and not exceed that.

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Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

Because this skill exist for all healing type jobs there is nothing for those who enjoy pure support gameplay.

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It's not because Cleric Stance as a skill exists, it's because there isn't enough healing or supporting to do for healers in any content of the game to make pure support / healing a valid play style.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I think you are misquoting the developers on what is actually meant by "left out of equations". Healer DPS is left out when calculating the minimum viable output, which means this is the calculation for the least amount of effort that a DPS should put out in in order to clear[...]

Basically, you can use the "healers aren't counted in equations" argument only if you intend to meet the standard of minimum viable output, and not exceed that.

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Furthermore, the developer calculations aren't based on item level existing when this content is added to the game. So it's like saying people shouldn't do this content when it's released because that's not the developers intention (in other words, a really bad argument). It is literally impossible to beat this content without healer DPS when it's first released, and without healer DPS it will be impossible for great majority of players for a long time after that, since the DPS calculated for DDs by the developers' intention is that high (and reaching that as a DD is much more demanding than healing and DPSing the same content at mediocre level).

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Originally Posted by Taika

[...] since the DPS calculated for DDs by the developers' intention is that high

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I can only repeat: 85-90% of their theoretical, calculated potential with the respective assumed item level.

For tanks, they also literally only take autoattacks and the 1-2-3 (the basic combo to keep hate) into account. It's such a gross double standard between the roles, it's not even funny.

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Originally Posted by ZioSerpe

I believe a good way to make people less scared of using CS would be to turn the cooldown around, instead of having a 5 seconds cooldown when you turn it on have it when you turn it off, this way people would be less scared of screwing up

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I've been asking for this for years. There is a long trail of dead tanks and dps behind my use of cleric when it gets turned back on the moment I try to turn it off.

I hope they remove cleric stance (and also dps stance on tank). They're superficial "complexities"
If it stays that's fine but removing cleric stance would actually make more healers try to use their dps skills more often which is a good thing in the end.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's not because Cleric Stance as a skill exists, it's because there isn't enough healing or supporting to do for healers in any content of the game to make pure support / healing a valid play style.

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There are other ways to support outside of healing and dealing damage. Like I mentioned in part of the comment that you didn't add to the quote. Buffs! These little things are amazing in that if given the chance, a healer/support could improve your party members potential. ie. something like what I mentioned previously, a channeled buff (a buff only applied while being channeled) on a target that can increase mitigation or damage dealt based on targets role it could be something like the brave/faith spells from other FF games. The reason support based filler skills don't exist is because the CS skill exist.

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Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

There are other ways to support outside of healing and dealing damage. Like I mentioned in part of the comment that you didn't add to the quote[...] The reason support based filler skills don't exist is because the CS skill exist.

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I was commenting on the current state of game, not possible design changes. It's only your speculation that they don't exist because Cleric Stance does. And I think it's quite far-fetched, as the two are not mutually exclusive. I for one would love to see more buffs and debuffs for healer jobs, but I don't think they should exclude being able to contribute to DPS as well (if the healer is skilled enough to do so). I really enjoyed the skill sets of Scholar and Red Mage in FFXI, for example.

take out cleric stance will be a major error, the dps of the healer are not that interesting in terms of gameplay, for the whm it's place wind and do earth, earth, earth , earth ,earth... extremely funny, cleric stance it's there for offer a challenge to the healer in them rotation. you must pay attention to your tank and make sure you are good before switch in dps.

one important point, every healer have skill that heal in urgency even under cleric stance. i feel the healer need to train more them skill, i don't ask my healer to dps or point him if he don't dps. (im tank or monk) i only point my healer when i die, because i don't receive healing for too long. (what can happend rarely). the cleric stance swapping is skill, it recquire the healer to understand the limit of the tank and his own limit of healing. paying attention to a lot more than simply spam stuff.

take out cleric stance is a dangerous move, since it will give a free pass for teh healer to not try to become better at them jobs. some will not even try (the one that don't dps at all, that them right after all) and some try hard to become excellent healer that will use cleric stance, they do error and i will not judge them if they recognize when they have misjudge a situation.

instead to point to cleric stance, they need to enhance the experience of healer for some... that are quite simple.... to simple.... really really too simple.

ps: i don't talk of the raid part, i don't do sadistic mode... but in dungeon and primal they are not that hard to play in comparaison of some jobs that can be extremely tiring.

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Originally Posted by Launched

If you remove Cleric Stance you remove the risk from dpsing, so healer DPS would have to be nerfed which sucks for anyone that already uses Cleric Stance.

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Not necessarily.

If Cleric Stance were to go away, what would need to change is pace of combat and damage taken overall. DPS skills would likely have to scale off MND rather than INT (since WHM, SCH and AST have to solo their quests like every other job), but what should happen to balance that out is reduce the number of opportunities to DPS and waste GCDs.

This is where it becomes a branching path because pace of combat can be changed in several ways. One way would be to make MP conservation critical to healing (meaning you don't want to waste MP, and if you do use MP it'll be for heals because you going OOM = wipe). Another would be to reduce the strength of outgoing heals so that you spend more GCDs healing (instant-cast DoTs would be fine to squeeze in now and then, but you wouldn't have stretches of time casting Stone/Malefic/Broil unless your tank is notably overgearing the content). Increasing damage taken and encouraging people to take as little damage as possible via mechanics would also be an option.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

take out cleric stance will be a major error, the dps of the healer are not that interesting in terms of gameplay, for the whm it's place wind and do earth, earth, earth , earth ,earth... extremely funny, cleric stance it's there for offer a challenge to the healer in them rotation. you must pay attention to your tank and make sure you are good before switch in dps.

one important point, every healer have skill that heal in urgency even under cleric stance. i feel the healer need to train more them skill, i don't ask my healer to dps or point him if he don't dps. (im tank or monk) i only point my healer when i die, because i don't receive healing for too long. (what can happend rarely). the cleric stance swapping is skill, it recquire the healer to understand the limit of the tank and his own limit of healing. paying attention to a lot more than simply spam stuff.

take out cleric stance is a dangerous move, since it will give a free pass for teh healer to not try to become better at them jobs. some will not even try (the one that don't dps at all, that them right after all) and some try hard to become excellent healer that will use cleric stance, they do error and i will not judge them if they recognize when they have misjudge a situation.

instead to point to cleric stance, they need to enhance the experience of healer for some... that are quite simple.... to simple.... really really too simple.

ps: i don't talk of the raid part, i don't do sadistic mode... but in dungeon and primal they are not that hard to play in comparaison of some jobs that can be extremely tiring.

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Cleric Stance is honestly boring as hell to me and I use it just fine. I don't see how Cleric Stance existing makes someone better, it's just an unnecessary annoyance probably designed so that we wouldn't be DPSing everywhere but the playerbase found out we could still do that regardless. Healer has enough going on with it with the DPS rotation and keeping track of people making mistakes, taking damage, and making sure one doesn't run out of MP while combining both offense and defense at little spots throughout dungeons or fights.

Healers don't need an overly complex DPS rotation when they are actively keeping track of their teams livelihood. If CS is removed, it would make the better healers better because they wouldn't have to worry about the inconvenience of it, and newer players would feel more welcomed and not panicked to actually DPS.