Class Reform info.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

That's where the Job-specific actions will come in. The letter said a new Job quest every 5 levels after 30.

30: Unlock job > 35: Ability > 40 Ability > 45 Ability > 50 Ability. That counts for 4/5. The extra one comes at 55 since they're raising the cap at the same time they're bringing in jobs. No idea how they're going to work Job-specific armor in there, if at all. Maybe a piece of armor with a new ability as well.

Edit: And I totally called the removal of AP last week :D

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Hmmm. When did they confirm level cap increase? I thought the confirmation was that up until 1.21 they have not planned anything yet and they will start considering it after jobs implementation.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous post, I highly doubt Classes will be able to use Job actions.

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A: There is no plan to raise the level cap until 1.21, and this is because it will usher in the job system. Beyond that point up until 2.0, we would like to carefully decide what to do. Increasing the level cap will lead to wider gaps between players.

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The official translation from the lodestone.

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Originally Posted by Holland

Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous post, I highly doubt Classes will be able to use Job actions.

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Of course not. It's been stated by Yoshi-P for a long time now.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

The official translation from the lodestone.


Of course not. It's been stated by Yoshi-P for a long time now.

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"Carefully decide on what to do" Keywords there

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Originally Posted by Starlord

"Carefully decide on what to do" Keywords there

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Yes but the implementation of jobs is resulting in the direct need of increasing the level cap according to them. They said in an interview with someone (zam maybe? I forget) that they had plans on raising the cap in tandem with releasing jobs. My vote goes to them doing this to keep the system working (every 5 levels get a quest and get an ability). But then again, we may not even get that many abilities. from 30-50 we may get 1 ability and the rest armor or other trinkets. Just because we have 15 abilities +10 from other classes doesn't mean we have to utilize those 10. The reverse is true as well, we may get 2 job abilities per 5 levels and wind up with only 7 or even fewer slots for other class abilities. And when we're using a job I believe I read other class abilities won't be usable (or at least for the most part) outside of the classes used to unlock the job. So there are many different roads open right now and no need to get hotheaded (not directed to the quoted).

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Yes but the implementation of jobs is resulting in the direct need of increasing the level cap according to them. They said in an interview with someone (zam maybe? I forget) that they had plans on raising the cap in tandem with releasing jobs. My vote goes to them doing this to keep the system working (every 5 levels get a quest and get an ability). But then again, we may not even get that many abilities. from 30-50 we may get 1 ability and the rest armor or other trinkets. Just because we have 15 abilities +10 from other classes doesn't mean we have to utilize those 10. The reverse is true as well, we may get 2 job abilities per 5 levels and wind up with only 7 or even fewer slots for other class abilities. And when we're using a job I believe I read other class abilities won't be usable (or at least for the most part) outside of the classes used to unlock the job. So there are many different roads open right now and no need to get hotheaded (not directed to the quoted).

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lol its cool, You do have a Valid point. It would make since for them to raise it, in conjunction to the Job system coming out. ( if it needs to have a raise due to the Job System then they will do just that). and from the looks of it, it seems like its very likely to see it in 1.21 or 1.22 cap raise.. but we shall see..

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Originally Posted by Starlord

"Carefully decide on what to do" Keywords there

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"Beyond that point" - keywords there. :P

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Originally Posted by Nikita

"Beyond that point" - keywords there. :P

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TOO MANY KEYWORDS!!!! >.< LOL

For the people who are concerned about the scaling spells and their damage/animation, SE has done something like this already.

Even though it's not the same type of game, Shantotto had this applied to her spells in Dissidia.

If your Bravery was below a certain point, you cast stone and it looked like Stone I. When her Bravery got to a certain number, the spell upgraded to say, Stonega and have a more impressive animation. At another level, her spells would upgrade once more into Quake and have an even better animation.

It really sounds like this is what they are doing, except with levels instead of Bravery. And really, who knows. You may end up more powerful at the end.

Level 01 - Thunder I level (Minor zap animation)
Level 20 - Thunder II level (Normal thunder animation)
Level 30 - Thunder III level (Lightning strike animation)
Level 40 - Thundaga level (lightning storm animation)
Level 50 - Burst level (lightning striking the ground and sparks erupting from the ground)

It would just simply be called "Thunder" in your skills list the whole time.

Some more thoughts.

This current system doesnt seem to have much in mind for growth.

there is 25 skills total, so what happens when cap is increased? or new skills come into the mix? in their own plan. we should go over the 30 slot cap pretty soon

15 basic skills
10 cross class skills
X amount Job skills
Various Item slots

HAVING NO CHOICE but to equip every skill on your bar will mean we essentially have to have the same skills we have now at 50 for ever, that doesnt seem very good at this stage if it ends up being the case

This system will throw out forever the idea that you should be able to play one class. Or that a person who leveled to 50 in one class could even hope to be as effecient as person who has multi class.

nearly 40% of your abilities will have to come from another class. If you are missing 10 skill possibilities, you will be gimp, severely so. even more so than now. Im not saying its bad, but it is something to notice.

First day you start as a wee child with lil poo...then one day you all grown up and poop big poo as they say it...er

You start magicks with a fizzle and end with a bang.

Abolishing spell tiers, oh no, something wow already did.

@Physic: It depends on how they split abilities among classes. People with only 1 class should always be weaker than those that have multiples, but if classes are focused enough they should be self-sufficient. Looking at Gladiator now, it needs abilities from 3-4 other classes in order to be able to tank anywhere within the realm of "effectively", which it is supposed to excel at. If the abilities it gets natively allows it to tank without much trouble, it can instead use the other abilities to focus on self-healing, dealing damage, or other utility stuff/personal playstyle stuff, but you would be able to solely do that one function just by having gladiator.

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Originally Posted by Physic

nearly 40% of your abilities will have to come from another class. If you are missing 10 skill possibilities, you will be gimp, severely so. even more so than now. Im not saying its bad, but it is something to notice.

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Did you count traits in you math, or just actions? Traits are skills too.

Pure speculation, but I believe the 5 available spots left on the skill bar are tied to future cap increase.

Following the same pattern of skills acquired every 4 leves (and considering there won't be additional cross-class skills spots available), that'd mean there's enough room to get to level 70 before reaching 20 skills + 10 cross-class.

They already stated that switching to a job will reduce which cross-class skills you can use or the number of them, so they will prolly fit among the 10 cross-class skills spots available.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Did you count traits in you math, or just actions? Traits are skills too.

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traits arent actions, but i will agree they do have uses, and with more them i would assume more use, but yeah to rephrase if 40% of your active abilities HAVE to be from another class, you will be a lot weaker when you dont have them.

Another thought that occured to me, I think they have cross class skills balanced too low. Unless they make every class a lot more versatile on its own low level, only getting 3 cross class abilities will totally gimp soloing on some classes until you get high level, at which point soloing is less required.

Essentially if the point of classes is to be versatile, too much of the versatility is high level, when a large portion of your solo times will be spent went your low level or mid level.

most melee soloing would probable need/want two cross class heals, some protective buffs, and an offensive buff. say a level 15 lancer or archer, has no/poor ways to regain hp and virtually no ways to mitigate it, they rely on oustide class skills for this.

Think how much harder is it going to be to solo without prime conditioning , fleet of foot (this is huge, dodging aoe without it has a lot less options) second wind, cure bloodbath, defender raging strike, blindside featherfoot siphon mp, stygian spikes shock spikes, etc.

at the end of the day for a 50, its not that crazy a difference (for melee who knows whats gonna happen to mages) but for a level 20? 15? yeah they are going to get even worse at soloing, when a lot of people were saying soloing was getting gimped already.

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Originally Posted by Vingtdeux

Pure speculation, but I believe the 5 available spots left on the skill bar are tied to future cap increase.

Following the same pattern of skills acquired every 4 leves (and considering there won't be additional cross-class skills spots available), that'd mean there's enough room to get to level 70 before reaching 20 skills + 10 cross-class.

They already stated that switching to a job will reduce which cross-class skills you can use or the number of them, so they will prolly fit among the 10 cross-class skills spots available.

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your not counting job which will come before that, also things like throwing items, and the plan on letting you add items to the bar as well. They really arent saving any/much space for new skills even without job abilities, throwing weapon and potions alone would kill 2 more slots. (it is possible that they will make jobs get access to only 5 cross class skills as thier limiter, adding more space to the bar)

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Originally Posted by Physic

Another thought that occured to me, I think they have cross class skills balanced too low. Unless they make every class a lot more versatile on its own low level, only getting 3 cross class abilities will totally gimp soloing on some classes until you get high level, at which point soloing is less required.

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If I may add yet another thought.

At Level 50, the maximum number of cross-class actions you can equip is 10.
At Level 30, a class learns it's 10th action.

Therefore, the bare minimum a Level 50 character should level a secondary class is 30 in order to "mathematically" not be gimp. That doesn't necessarily mean those 10 actions from the secondary class are particularly desirable. It's just the minimum. In essence this creates a sub-class system similar to the sub-job system from FFXI (e.g. CNJ50/THM30). The primary difference being that it allow for more granular sub-classing of actions (sub-actions??), for increased customization.

Really, the "what if they increase the level cap?" argument is, at this time, completely irrelevant. A level cap increase was not announced in the roadmap for 2.0, which means that such a thing is at LEAST a year and a half way.

In that time, they could add a fourth bar for skills, an item specific skillbar, delete actions, add actions, or any other number of things before even reaching a level cap increase.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

If I may add yet another thought.

At Level 50, the maximum number of cross-class actions you can equip is 10.
At Level 30, a class learns it's 10th action.

Therefore, the bare minimum a Level 50 character should level a secondary class is 30 in order to "mathematically" not be gimp. That doesn't necessarily mean those 10 actions from the secondary class are particularly desirable. It's just the minimum. In essence this creates a sub-class system similar to the sub-job system from FFXI (e.g. CNJ50/THM30). The primary difference being that it allow for more granular sub-classing of actions (sub-actions??), for increased customization.

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Another words... they are kinda bringing back subjobs.. in a way..

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Another words... they are kinda bringing back subjobs.. in a way..

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One could argue that they've always been in place and that the armory system as a whole has been a system based around reliance on other jobs other than your main.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

One could argue that they've always been in place and that the armory system as a whole has been a system based around reliance on other jobs other than your main.

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True.. but they are making the sub-classes more restrictive in terms of how many action from the sub class you can put on your main. So in a since they are making it a true sub-class/job mechinics

If you guys look @ how many actions each class learns it is really not a lot, take PGL for instance on the road to 50 we learn 25 skills that's 1 skill every 2 lvls, but here the thing they are doing seems they are trimming the fat off alot of classes so to speak.

I always thought it was quite stupid and lazy of the old dev team to have version 2 of everything damn near, Victimize, hay maker, jarring strike, second wind, blindside, concussive blow, and others from the PGL skill set that are dbl skills of the same move, so only having 15 skills does not seem that bad at all.

I personally think that cure magic should stay tiered, but offensive magic I'm kinda 50/50, if they do not fix spirit dart and the like then I am gonna always think sometimes "I could have lived if I could cast that lower tier spell to kill cause I did not have enough mp"

Edit: Mage classes is the only thing that worries me about the 15 actions to 50.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Really, the "what if they increase the level cap?" argument is, at this time, completely irrelevant. A level cap increase was not announced in the roadmap for 2.0, which means that such a thing is at LEAST a year and a half way.

In that time, they could add a fourth bar for skills, an item specific skillbar, delete actions, add actions, or any other number of things before even reaching a level cap increase.

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actually he said in live letter that it was a possibility any time after 1.21, though he didnt commit to it.

Also most of these plans are being laid very specifically with 2.0 in mind. (IE skill animations for the stuff he does now, not being fully implemented till around 2.0) So is he saying we basically wont be getting any more skills even after 2.0? That doesnt sound like a bright future.

b

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Originally Posted by Estellios

@Physic: It depends on how they split abilities among classes. People with only 1 class should always be weaker than those that have multiples, but if classes are focused enough they should be self-sufficient. Looking at Gladiator now, it needs abilities from 3-4 other classes in order to be able to tank anywhere within the realm of "effectively", which it is supposed to excel at. If the abilities it gets natively allows it to tank without much trouble, it can instead use the other abilities to focus on self-healing, dealing damage, or other utility stuff/personal playstyle stuff, but you would be able to solely do that one function just by having gladiator.

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this should actually not be the case, the more tanking skills they put on gladiator, the more incapable it will be of soloing or any other role, which is supposed to be the advantage of the class portion.

With even more tanking and enmity skills using up glad's 15 slots, they will get even weaker in solo. How will a glad solo anything with even less damaging skills?

yes, in all honesty most melee and non mages had approximately 15 abilities, the second tiers took up most of the other stuff. but for mages it reeeallly is crazy.

The combo they were showing sounded like Gladiator-based stuff, what with the enmity bonuses. Gladiator's new abilities could easily be adding enmity on top of damaging skills/combos instead of adding more provokes.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

If I may add yet another thought.

At Level 50, the maximum number of cross-class actions you can equip is 10.
At Level 30, a class learns it's 10th action.

Therefore, the bare minimum a Level 50 character should level a secondary class is 30 in order to "mathematically" not be gimp. That doesn't necessarily mean those 10 actions from the secondary class are particularly desirable. It's just the minimum. In essence this creates a sub-class system similar to the sub-job system from FFXI (e.g. CNJ50/THM30). The primary difference being that it allow for more granular sub-classing of actions (sub-actions??), for increased customization.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Another words... they are kinda bringing back subjobs.. in a way..

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Originally Posted by Alerith

One could argue that they've always been in place and that the armory system as a whole has been a system based around reliance on other jobs other than your main.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

True.. but they are making the sub-classes more restrictive in terms of how many action from the sub class you can put on your main. So in a since they are making it a true sub-class/job mechinics

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If they can get the balance right, this would be very nice. In FFXI, I always wanted to have just one or two abilities from a 3rd sub-job. This new system would allow you to do just that, just to a slightly more limited degree. Only actions, not traits.

So a character would have to be a GLA to have Ambidexterity, because traits are not cross-classable. No other class will ever have that trait, no matter how many GLA actions they cross-class to it. I'm not sure, but I think that has a certain appeal.

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Originally Posted by Vingtdeux

Pure speculation, but I believe the 5 available spots left on the skill bar are tied to future cap increase.

Following the same pattern of skills acquired every 4 leves (and considering there won't be additional cross-class skills spots available), that'd mean there's enough room to get to level 70 before reaching 20 skills + 10 cross-class.

They already stated that switching to a job will reduce which cross-class skills you can use or the number of them, so they will prolly fit among the 10 cross-class skills spots available.

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The five additional Spots are for Dragging Items to the Action Bar. This was explained in the break down of the screen shot during the live Letter

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Originally Posted by Sorel

If they can get the balance right, this would be very nice. In FFXI, I always wanted to have just one or two abilities from a 3rd sub-job. This new system would allow you to do just that, just to a slightly more limited degree. Only actions, not traits.

So a character would have to be a GLA to have Ambidexterity, because traits are not cross-classable. No other class will ever have that trait, no matter how many GLA actions they cross-class to it. I'm not sure, but I think that has a certain appeal.

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alls i can still say to that is fleet of foot is way to big to be lancer only.

Some of these issues may be solved with their class skill plans, but until i see it, i have to say there is some major hurdles here. Overall the plan isnt absolutely bad, but it has some decent sized issues imo

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Originally Posted by Physic

actually he said in live letter that it was a possibility any time after 1.21, though he didnt commit to it.

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I remember this as well, honestly I hope that lvl caps are still far away. The game is still underdeveloped and so is the current end-game content to keep people busy at 50, I think they should focus on that rather than raising the cap even if it's just 5 levels. however what is more important is that there shouldn't be a much larger gap between the established players and the ones that are going to be recruited with the 2.0 and PS3 launch. I think that a better option than raising the cap would be to add more classes and jobs closer to 2.0. But for all we know the jobs that are already on the way might also come with a lot of job related content to keep us busy.

Well, let's hope they fix Gladiator's enmity gain then because otherwise this (having no Intimidation to keep up the lack of DD and stuff) will just push it aside even more as tanking class.

Goodbye Prime Conditionin and Out of Sight for everyone. ; ;

Yoshida already stated that paladin would be the ultimate tank, with less hp but considerably more defense than gladiator. It isn't unreasonable to guess that Pld will have much improved hate control.

I'm more worried about Paladin becoming the only Tank, it's bad enough we are only going to have one healing class. If we only have one tank, making a party is gonna be a massive pain.

I completely agree with Kiote. We definitely need multiple healer and tank jobs. That was a huge problem with FF11.

I sincerely hope that they are not moving towards creating another WoW clone. It makes no sense why they are getting rid of tiered spells for mages that rely on the different tier spells to mitigate their hate generation and conserve mp.

It just sounds like they have not taken threat management into consideration, but are reducing the resources required by using custom action bars for every player. A standardized action bar, with the same actions for every job, they are reducing resources. Even though they will allow you to move them around, there is less data that needs to be transmitted to the servers and simplifies the game.

I am concerned that mages will generate too much hate if they only have one single target cure and regen spell. Perhaps they will add different spells to account for this, but that begs the question of why action consolidation is even necessary.

It could also be a big problem for damage dealers to have to move in front of the mob to get the 20% damage bonus. While this may make sense for soloing, it doesn't make sense for parties or group combat.

I am glad that they are providing information and perhaps it will work when they implement their changes. The change will certainly be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I'm more worried about Paladin becoming the only Tank, it's bad enough we are only going to have one healing class. If we only have one tank, making a party is gonna be a massive pain.

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For now, more than likely it will be that way, but we will have jobs in the future that will also be able to tank or heal in their own way.

In FFXI, PLD was pretty much your only tank till people found a way to utilize NIN as a tank. WAR was meant to tank also, but lacked features that made them not as efficient. SAM was the same problem, they were meant to be a tank, but due to parrying being the hardest skill to level, it phased itself out as a tank very quickly.

Even got to the point in FFXI that people went PLD/NIN, and PLD became the only tank in a cookie cutter setup for events.

I believe the current developers know how to make a tank viable now, so we should expect another job to fulfill this role in the future.

By the way... SE NEVER posts on a weekend... an 11/11/11 Fell on a "Weekend" They waited to tell us this on purpose! :P

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I'm more worried about Paladin becoming the only Tank, it's bad enough we are only going to have one healing class. If we only have one tank, making a party is gonna be a massive pain.

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Warrior is still there, it's probably going to be a secondary type of tank though, but at least that's something. As for healer, I believe that Blm will have capabilities to become a backup healer as well, since every job has a main and sub class it is reasonable to believe that Blm will have some spells from conjurer. Also, we don't know how well bard will work to enhance theses jobs either.

As for FFXI, it had these problems in the beginning, I'll go as far as to say that for a tank Pld was in many ways much more successful. As for healers however there was a few to pick between.

Granted I only read the first 10 pages, but SE might surprise us and fix this whole absence of skills learned issue by adding more quests!

Sure, we learn the actions and stuff every so many levels as outlined in the chart, but he also said that job and class-specific actions will be obtained by completing quests. So maybe they will give us more quests! That way even though you wont learn another ability for 5 levels, maybe next level you qualify for a new quest where you learn a new spell or something.

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Originally Posted by Zoltan

I completely agree with Kiote. We definitely need multiple healer and tank jobs. That was a huge problem with FF11.

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I'm sorry, but I must comment on this little section here.

As a XI career PLD, I can say with certainty that there are TOO MANY jobs that can tank. Paladin has become less useful and almost totally unwanted in XI because most jobs can still survive and deal out more damage than Paladin.

Also, between White Mage and Scholar and (in extreme cases) Summoner and Red Mage, there was never really a shortage of capable healing classes.

I want them to do the OPPOSITE of XI and make Paladin a solid tank that has the real enmity control, damage mitigation and combat support abilities it needs to be useful.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

I'm sorry, but I must comment on this little section here.

As a XI career PLD, I can say with certainty that there are TOO MANY jobs that can tank. Paladin has become less useful and almost totally unwanted in XI because most jobs can still survive and deal out more damage than Paladin.

Also, between White Mage and Scholar and (in extreme cases) Summoner and Red Mage, there was never really a shortage of capable healing classes.

I want them to do the OPPOSITE of XI and make Paladin a solid tank that has the real enmity control, damage mitigation and combat support abilities it needs to be useful.

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There definitely was a shortage of healers before they added scholar, summoner and red mage and lol-dancer. Not worth arguing about though.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

but what 15 actions will we get. first of all that means we will lose alot. second of all they said we were getting new actions too which means they are getting rid of even more. I know which ones id keep but well see.

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theyre are so many shit useless weaponskills as it is we wont miss what they remove or deem crap and we will get boost to already popular ones and probably seeing there will be less that will give them more time to focus on uniqueness of single skills and new animations for each individual skill. Thist ier 1 /2 of every single action is a waste of space. Now actions will scale w/ level and like they mentioned we will get boost to weaponskills using them w/ certain buff actions or traits equiped. this also isnt taking into account theyre will be new actions for some classes.