tanks not using cooldowns?

Ummmm for the most part defensive buffs are not needed unless a large pull is going on then yeah ok you got a point. Let's be real and honest with ourselves here. Nobody is really playing at their best in a DF low to mid difficulty dungeon. The way we're geared at this point it's expected. And when you're in higher content the challenging one of course it's used when needed. But really use cd on trash mobs just because.....are you saying this for the sake of dps or trying not to max out health? From what I see when I play I don't pop CD unless it's a big pull and when I'm not using cd my healers still manage to play in their dps stances. Like holy shit man cant even enjoy a game without hearing critiques on nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Yes it was. Even to the point where Whiteroom stated that Devs meant for dungeons to be speed runs, "when the games meta is speedrun everything".

I'm sure the Devs will be happy to know they did not design Dungeons to be challenging to casual and low level players.

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Did you read the rest of my post, or did you just assume I was agreeing wholesale?

The point of the discussion that you're deviating from is the usefulness of CC as relates mitigation - which is an entirely separate thread than the original point of this thread.

CC is viable for extremely coordinated groups, but this game is not structured in a way where it can be used to save a group from wiping.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Ummmm for the most part defensive buffs are not needed unless a large pull is going on then yeah ok you got a point. Let's be real and honest with ourselves here. Nobody is really playing at their best in a DF low to mid difficulty dungeon. The way we're geared at this point it's expected. And when you're in higher content the challenging one of course it's used when needed. But really use cd on trash mobs just because.....are you saying this for the sake of dps or trying not to max out health? From what I see when I play I don't pop CD unless it's a big pull and when I'm not using cd my healers still manage to play in their dps stances. Like holy shit man cant even enjoy a game without hearing critiques on nonsense.

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Without sounding rude, all of what you said is addressed in this thread and has been answered already.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Did you read the rest of my post, or did you just assume I was agreeing wholesale?

The point of the discussion that you're deviating from is the usefulness of CC as relates mitigation - which is an entirely separate thread than the original point of this thread.

CC is viable for extremely coordinated groups, but this game is not structured in a way where it can be used to save a group from wiping.

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Yes, I did. The two of you are arguing that CC isn't useful for one specific type of group (end-game players). I'll admit this is probably the largest group in the game for a MMO that's several years old. But that doesn't make your argument any more meaningful. Then, you argued that it is harder to tell people to stop hitting, which I've also already addressed by saying you would generally use CC before the tank gets aggro or on strays from the stack (meaning outside of the omnipotent AoE spells). So it's not that you have to coordinate people to stop. They usually won't hit mobs before the tank gets aggro. At least I hope the majority of DPS players still understand that. So listen... instead of just repeating yourselves with the same specific argument over and over.

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

The last part is just a lie. CC is viable every time you're about to die. I've saved many groups from wiping with just a WHM knockback, snare and sleep. I've watched a BLM friend save groups several times with sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you really need help I can try to go over the basics of CC with you.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

Without sounding rude, all of what you said is addressed in this thread and has been answered already.

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It's all good didn't feel like reading through 17 pages worth of comments so I spoke my mind.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Yes, I did. The two of you are arguing that CC isn't useful for one specific type of group (end-game players). I'll admit this is probably the largest group in the game for a MMO that's several years old. But that doesn't make your argument any more meaningful. Then, you argued that it is harder to tell people to stop hitting, which I've also already addressed by saying you would generally use CC before the tank gets aggro or on strays from the stack (meaning outside of the omnipotent AoE spells). So it's not that you have to coordinate people to stop. They usually won't hit mobs before the tank gets aggro. At least I hope the majority of DPS players still understand that. So listen... instead of just repeating yourselves with the same specific argument over and over.

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CCing mobs before they're aggro'd !== saving the group. CCing mobs before they're aggro'd == you'd better reapply the CC once the duration runs out if the current group isn't dead, otherwise every one of those mobs is going to go straight for the person who hit them with the CC.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

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CC !== tank defensive cooldowns. This is a thread about tanks using their defensive cooldowns, and discussing whether or not a DPS or healer's CC is worth using is entirely separate to that discussion. You also seem to be veering towards a false perception of me or really anyone who disagrees with you as an elitist (which is ad hominem and invective - see my signature). All this is to say we are very far off topic, and the discussion at hand is not going to do very much to help tanks at all.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

The last part is just a lie. CC is viable every time you're about to die. I've saved many groups from wiping with just a WHM knockback, snare and sleep. I've watched a BLM friend save groups several times with sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you really need help I can try to go over the basics of CC with you.

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General statement of reality !== lie. You may have circumstantial evidence of BLMs saving groups, or your own knockbacks as a WHM (which, let me tell you, can get REALLY annoying for a tank if they're not communicated), but most content runs I've seen in this game should not require it. Interrupts are one thing, but there are very few points where abilities must be interrupted to avoid a wipe. If a group is going to wipe, and there are DoTs out, AoE sleeping is only going to buy you maybe 3 seconds. Its usefulness is extremely situational, and in any DF setting, you're much more likely to see value from killing stuff more and having a tank who knows how to handle their cooldowns and group enmity than you are from CC.

Good on you and your friend, though.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

"no one except people who want to try to win pvp matches needs CC because it only slows us down".

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This is more accurate than what you had.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

I don't know what the middle part means. I keep saying CC is more useful than elitists make it out to be. And the response is basically - "end-game characters don't need CC because it only slows us down".

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You just rendered your whole argument not valid, if it ever was.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

more stuff implying CC isn't needed in a perfect scenario...

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Alright man. Just let me know when you want to learn how and when to use CC. I can help you. Case in point.... having DoTs up breaks CC... I let it go the first time. I figured someone would correct you. Oh well. Only the first tick of a DoT will break CC in this game.

I wish more people knew about it. That was the point of my response. DPS always act helpless on a bad pull when they can help out just as easily as the tank and healer. But instead you want to argue about how CC is useless in well-geared groups during perfect pulls. I don't know what else to say to that.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Whiteroom, in your world every dungeon instance is a speed run by raid-geared characters just earning marks for end-game. That has been the flaw of your argument from the beginning. So please stop... your argument is pointless in this thread in general. A raid geared tank wouldn't need cooldowns or CC to run a low level dungeon. Obviously I'm not addressing that situation in any way shape or form by saying CC should be used. There would hardly ever be a need for CC in that kind of group.

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Serious?

Your argument is based on their being some huge portion of the community in min ilvl gear, who don't know their jobs properly, over pull, and lose aggro, yet will somehow manage to coordinate CC. And do all that in a game where the content is tuned so low that it still doesn't matter.


The game throws gear at you. Any time new dungeons are released, the majority of the people playing them will be 15 or so ilvls above what drops in them anyway. And at low level (leveling)you are on to the next dungeon in about 3 runs anyway.

The devs did not design the dungeons for speed runs, but they are tuned so low that that is where the community sets the meta. So in a way the devs kind of did. They released the content so that it could easily be speed run, and then put the grinds in that made speed runs desiarable.


But as far as our line of discussion pertanining to the OP, it does not, OP is about tanks not using defensive CD, not the merits of CC. That you think top geared people dont need CD is interesting, given how much babying you thing lower geared people need.

Why do you think people who can't hold aggro, in a game this easy, are going to be able to coordinate CC, especially when they are going to have to gain aggro back, and two of the tanks aoe aggro will break the cc anyway? And yes Dots that are applied won't break CC, but almost everything else will, same with the smn that hits bane right after you cast sleep.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Alright man. Just let me know when you want to learn how and when to use CC. I can help you. Case in point.... having DoTs up breaks CC... I let it go the first time. I figured someone would correct you. Oh well. Only the first tick of a DoT will break CC in this game.

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You know, you're acting really condescending for someone who claims people arguing against them are all elitists. I'll readily admit I didn't know that bit about DoTs not breaking CC, but that also hasn't been my experience (moreso, my experience has been that so much as looking at a CC'd target breaks the CC), but the fact that you seem to think you're better than everyone else because you have some secret knowledge about CC is really not winning you any points, and is really making people, myself included, disinclined to hear you out.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

I wish more people knew about it. That was the point of my response. DPS always act helpless on a bad pull when they can help out just as easily as the tank and healer. But instead you want to argue about how CC is useless in well-geared groups during perfect pulls. I don't know what else to say to that.

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No, I'm saying CC has limited uses in the majority of content in the game, including leveling dungeons, guildhests, trials, etc. The greatest irony of your perception is that it's been said in conversation that savage raid statics actually use CC pretty extensively in current encounters. This is also the tanking forum, while the CC you keep returning to is provided by healers and DPS. We're trying to promote excellence in tanking, which would preclude the necessity for that sort of gameplay. Sure, maybe CC is more useful than I give it credit for, but as a tank, I'd be rather ashamed of myself if I ever let a pull get so bad that I'd need to rely on CC to survive. There's a threshold in tanking where you know the instance inside and out, backwards and forwards, so you know every pull and every potential pitfall, and you know how to pull mobs and position enemies to avoid the sorts of make-or-break situations that could wind up in a wipe.

A good tank will control the encounter enough to where they will be able to avoid death traps like that, which means a good tank won't need to rely on CC for survival. As this is the tanking sub forum (and a thread about tank cooldown usage), discussion about what healers and DPS can do is extremely off-topic.

Though I'm sure if you went to the DPS, healer, or dungeon forums, they'd love to hear what you have to say about what DPS and healers can do to save runs.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

deflection time

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I apologize for being condescending but there is only so many times I can take you disagreeing with me by making a completely irrelevant point. At no point whatsoever did I say CC should be used as often as you seem to think I did. It is a nice way to prevent a wipe during a bad pull instead of just yelling and blaming tanks and healers. I repeated that several times and even spelled out that I am not making a larger general statement about using CC as often as possible.

I also love the fact that I'm now being labeled despite the fact that I've had to argue against: "let them die to learn a lesson", "healing is so easy in this game", DF groups can not coordinate, people that claim to speak for the DEVs, etc...

I understand this is the tanking subforum. My original post was a reply to your comment in which you were summarizing the thread. Half of the bullets of your summary were about what HEALERS can do... So I guess I should apologize for reading your summary if anything. But I am glad I was able to help you learn something today ;)

I'm still learning this game. I like it. I'm all for a speed run. I screwed up last night because a new person needed the Cactuars in Cutter's Cry when I ran though them to port. But there's also a MMO learning gap here that is accepted with this blissful ignorance that is really annoying. I don't like the "we must AoE or wipe" mentality in dungeons. DPS can contribute to keeping everyone alive too by doing more than just blasting AoEs in a bad situation.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Snip

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What you don't seem to want to realize is that CC is uneffective whether you speedrun or not. It's that easy, developers made this so easy that's how you can actually speedrun, because you know you can, easily. I wish CC had meaning, I truly do, coming from FFXI I enjoyed that a lot, but in here it's just a waste of time and resources.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

(moreso, my experience has been that so much as looking at a CC'd target breaks the CC)

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Oh one more point. You seem to main as a tank so yes as soon as you target a CC'd mob it will probably break. It's very common for the DPS to assist target through you.

Unfortunately the only CC skills viable are ones used by several bosses and enemies that a player can't use(such as THM/BLM enemies using Breakga but the player gets gimped in the process) or PvP only skills. Or skills like Freeze and Sleep who only have true use in PvP and the occasional Fate.

Even harder when current mechanics boil down to kill all the things leaving no room for actual crowd control outside say a tank using provoke or a warrior using Holmgang or inflicting heavy on say True Heart.

Regardless of content, Tanks should be rotating their CDs throughout the entirety of a fight. This is the main difference between a good tank, and a bad one.