Option to Remove the Circle Image on Skill CD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laraul

Read this to understand WHY the change was made.

---

So... to alleviate how the cooldown numbers on the tooltip was difficult to read at smaller HUD settings, they changed it so the numbers are even smaller? (Even on the hotbars I have at 100%, I can't always read the TP/MP number on my skills; if I need to check how much the skill costs, I hover over it to bring up the tooltip.)

A much easier solution instead of the spinning circles would have been to use a greyed-out skill (to prevent the skill colour from clashing with the colour of the numbers) with that large count-down number on it. Having it greyed out would phase the skill out of most people's perceptions, similar to the darkened "this skill is not available right now" for level-sync or proc skills, and the numbers would work a lot better to tell people when it was ready or not.

Like I've said once before in this thread, I don't personally have an issue with the circles, apart from that whole "I can use this skill before it appears to come off cooldown" issue. And it doesn't really have to be a skill with a really long cooldown for that. I've noticed that I can use my stun attack (20s cooldown) about a second or so before the animation tells me it's ready. Which... makes it more confusing than it should be. Is the skill ready or not? I don't know, because the cooldown animation lies to me.

i think S.Speed isnt got into account with this circles , because sometimes i can use the skill before the icon say is ready....sometimes NOT...guess it varies from gear to gear (job to job).

i just wanted a numerical CD on the icons , doest need to look cool or animated , just a timer....would love yellow if 5seconds or more and red from 5 to 1...but i will take anything at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warlyx

i think S.Speed isnt got into account with this circles , because sometimes i can use the skill before the icon say is ready....sometimes NOT...guess it varies from gear to gear (job to job).

---

Maybe, though I wasn't aware that S.Speed had any effect on longer cooldowns. Otherwise, we'd have PLD with high Skill Speed and, say, 4.5 minute cooldown on their Hallowed Ground instead of 5 minutes. GCD, cast and recast times, yes, but not skill/ability cooldowns. AFAIK. (If I'm wrong, I'd actually love to be made aware of that.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noxifer

So... to alleviate how the cooldown numbers on the tooltip was difficult to read at smaller HUD settings, they changed it so the numbers are even smaller? (Even on the hotbars I have at 100%, I can't always read the TP/MP number on my skills; if I need to check how much the skill costs, I hover over it to bring up the tooltip.)

---

As a console player who plays from my couch about 10 feet or so from the TV, I've never been able to read TP/MP numbers on the skill icons. And with a controller, there's no hovering over them either. When I'm crafting, if I need to double check the number of CP something would cost, I either bring up the Actions & Traits window to check, or else get up and walk over to the TV. Neither is really feasible for combat skills, though.

So, with my setup, the cooldown numbers are completely useless. I can see how they might be useful for PC players whose computer monitor is a couple feet in front of them, but not when you're watching a TV from across the room. I'm guessing that's a pretty common arrangement for console players at least, and have heard of some PC players who hook their computer up to the TV in order to do the same. (I wonder how many of the testers SE used to decide this feature works were looking at how it works from 10 feet away, or if they were all just looking at how it works when your monitor is right in front of you.)

This has probably been said but...

I like them on my cooldowns. Actual cooldowns. The ones that are longer then the Global Cooldown. I'd be cool with the circles even on the short ones, like Defiance, Cleric Stance, etc.

But on my weaponskills? The ones that make practically my entire skillbar flash white every 2.4 seconds? Why. Who needs that flashing them every single GCD?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

As a console player who plays from my couch about 10 feet or so from the TV, I've never been able to read TP/MP numbers on the skill icons.

---

Yep, that's what I do, too. Have the PC connected to the TV, that is, though I think I'm sitting a bit closer. Maybe... Five-six feet? Which is why having the tooltip icon as the cooldown icon would be a lot better than the teensy tiny numbers you can't read anyway. Well, alright, I can read them. If I have time to focus on them, which I rarely have time to do during combat. So sure, I can test-use a skill and then see the number ticking, but... yeah. Not really efficient, IMO. I wasn't really aware that my "cooldown counter" was on until I tabbed back into the game to check it just now ^^;

(Will have to test on a striking dummy later regarding the whole 'can use Brutal Swing before the cooldown animation has gone away' and see what number it's on when I can use it again.)

Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teiren

However, if you mean you're actually performing the ability before the recast finishes, then that is inconsistent with before and could be a little annoying.

---

Yes, I mean that the skill animation starts before the cooldown animation's gone. Haven't had time yet to check the numbers; when I do, I'll come back with more info =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhexos

however, due to memory restrictions

---

I think now it's safe to say it's the go to answer :p You can add in 3 new jobs with 3 new sets of actions but a circle animation (which you should've used an overlay for) is too much for memory? Balls sir, balls!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lethallin

This has probably been said but...

I like them on my cooldowns. Actual cooldowns. The ones that are longer then the Global Cooldown. I'd be cool with the circles even on the short ones, like Defiance, Cleric Stance, etc.

But on my weaponskills? The ones that make practically my entire skillbar flash white every 2.4 seconds? Why. Who needs that flashing them every single GCD?

---

Technically, my guess is that all cooldowns are "Recast" to the game, so it can't distinguish between 2.5 seconds, 5 seconds, or 420 seconds. In other words, I'm mostly sure that there was no way to have this on only Recasts of greater than 2.5 seconds which I agree would be really nice. It's just insane that they thought it was good to ruin everything just to solve a really tiny problem. I understand that you can't get 100% consensus on anything, but this wasn't a problem that NEEDED to be fixed anyway. It's not like we're playing WoW where everyone has 6, 8, 12, or 15-second rotational cooldown abilities.


And I don't view that data for, "the ratio for old:new got wider as they used more refined versions," as valid. Everyone knows that especially Japanese people are crazy about groupthink; in other words, a self-imposed peer pressure that often happens to varying degrees in any social environment. The ratio already started out in favor of the new sweep, likely by people who didn't want to cause any disruption, so it was inevitable the votes would narrow towards it. Besides that, concerning the validity of the "memory restrictions" problem: If that doesn't mean PS3 or PS4 limitations, then what the hell is wrong with the programming of this game?! It shouldn't be something so complicated or restrictive.


Also Noxifer, make sure you don't confuse queuing an ability with actually performing the ability. Even before 3.2, it was possible to queue an ability like you would any other action if the cooldown remaining was roughly equivalent to the queue time period (400ms, or is it 500ms?). I believe this is what Hiroshi was referring to when he said that the time when you can use an action appears to be the same as when its recast is nearly complete. It didn't really matter or have any practical use, but it was there, and I wonder if the circles may just be making it a lot easier to see when you're doing it now. However, if you mean you're actually performing the ability before the recast finishes, then that is inconsistent with before and could be a little annoying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wade

I think now it's safe to say it's the go to answer :p You can add in 3 new jobs with 3 new sets of actions but a circle animation (which you should've used an overlay for) is too much for memory? Balls sir, balls!

---

Do these 3 new jobs use own UI, or share they the UI wih the other jobs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noxifer

Maybe, though I wasn't aware that S.Speed had any effect on longer cooldowns. Otherwise, we'd have PLD with high Skill Speed and, say, 4.5 minute cooldown on their Hallowed Ground instead of 5 minutes. GCD, cast and recast times, yes, but not skill/ability cooldowns. AFAIK. (If I'm wrong, I'd actually love to be made aware of that.)

---

S.S doesnt reduce CD , but recudes the GCD , being a bard i notice it way more than when i play sch , or blm....thats probably because my casting times are 1.5s and the GCD base is 2.5 (-SS ) , the circle doesnt time well , nor does the numeric timer , add lag to the equation because 3.2 has been a bit laggy later on ...

I really don't like the new timer animation. I saw that Devi replied about making the circle less obvious. Was there a timeline on that change?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Do these 3 new jobs use own UI, or share they the UI wih the other jobs?

---

They have new icons - same UI, new icons. New icons = more memory. My point was you can squeeze in all these new ability icons into memory but can't toggle the circle? If it's there, it can be removed - the original icon simply needs an overlay.

If they are saying that for each animation it uses a whole new set of animated icons to create the circle (which it sounds like they did) - go back and do it with an overlay and you'll free up loads of memory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hello, everyone.

The following is a comment from UI Lead Hiroshi Minagawa in regards to the new recast timers implemented in Patch 3.2.

There were 50 testers, and comments were taken from both actual players and non-players.

out of 10,000 players, 1,000 players would be against it.

---

Now explain to me how 50 testers translates to representing the true population of the community???

Possibly one of the most ignorant decisions I have ever seen. REMOVE THE DAMN CIRCLES, MY GOD WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO RUIN MY ENJOYMENT OF THIS GAME.

The ironic part? The change actually doesn't work.

The original intent of the change was to fix a problem where people thought that skills were ready but they weren't in the last second or so of recast.

In fact, you can fire off a skill BEFORE the icon animation shows that it is finished. This is due to round trip lag time. This is no different than before the change which, of course, does nothing to address the time synch effect.

It's questionable whether the problem actually existed in the first place in real world environments that have lag (testing done in a lag free test environment?)

Here is an alternative design for the designers to consider if they are so intent on having bright, sweeping white circles.

1. Just dim the icon when it isn't ready and include the count down digits. In the last 2 seconds before it is ready, do your white circle animation. This will attract you to the icon at an appropriate time, instead of distracting you all the time. For those who understand lag and want to get a jump, the shorter duration of the white circle sweep will allow them to "jump" conclusion with more precision (fire at 9 o'clock for example, instead of fire at 11:45).
2. Don't do the circle animation on GCD abilities. If needed, add a single element that can show GCD time remaining

Personally I really like the change. I do however agree that it should be an option not a forced thing. So people should be able to toggle in or out of it.

That being said though, the way some people are reacting to this and the way some of these comments are going is basically starting to sound a little like
http://40.media.tumblr.com/eeea11373...713j8_1280.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heynowjose

Personally I really like the change. I do however agree that it should be an option not a forced thing. So people should be able to toggle in or out of it.

That being said though, the way some people are reacting to this and the way some of these comments are going is basically starting to sound a little like
http://40.media.tumblr.com/eeea11373...713j8_1280.jpg

---

I agree when you read the convoluted post that UI Lead Hiroshi Minagawa posted , you can see the hubris he demonstrated by so stupidly changing something that did not need to be changed. And then asking non-players to chime in about what they thought. I mean SE if your reading this, if you claim you have 5 million players worldwide then out of 5 million players 500,000 are now pissed. Scale the truth so your ignorance is more meaningful.

My issue with this change is that my toolbar animations now look and feel totally different than other mmos, of which I occasionally play quite a few.

I'm the type of person that likes having my UI in similar games fairly similar, so I can IGNORE the UI, and focus on the gameplay itself. That's why having a customizable UI is important in the first place. I can put my skillbars where I like, HP, party list, primary target, focus target, questlog, etc. They all go in my "usual" spots, so I only have to pay minimal attention to them.

This is like having my car speedometer updated to suddenly flash bright lights in my face when I'm accelerating. Yes, it helps me know I'm accelerating, but I don't need that information. Give me the option to turn it off so my car gives me information the same as other cars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gunspec

My issue with this change is that my toolbar animations now look and feel totally different than other mmos, of which I occasionally play quite a few.

I'm the type of person that likes having my UI in similar games fairly similar, so I can IGNORE the UI, and focus on the gameplay itself. That's why having a customizable UI is important in the first place. I can put my skillbars where I like, HP, party list, primary target, focus target, questlog, etc. They all go in my "usual" spots, so I only have to pay minimal attention to them.

This is like having my car speedometer updated to suddenly flash bright lights in my face when I'm accelerating. Yes, it helps me know I'm accelerating, but I don't need that information. Give me the option to turn it off so my car gives me information the same as other cars.

---

Like having an airplane dashboard in car or texting while driving. I would rather not have to look at a UI at all so I can focus on environment. Why is texting and driving illegal in the states?

The change...

Old cool down overlay vs new cool down overlay. Not so much has changed when you examine the two side by side.

http://i.imgur.com/e4rhB5g.png * http://i.imgur.com/ehv8ZYp.png

Hiroshi Minagawa's response is complete and utter nonsense. They simply made a few minor changes to the overlay texture. A very basic and simple modification that wouldn't require any change to the existing code to function. What is so truely bizarre is why did he make up such an elaborate tale when he could have just told the truth? Hiroshi Minagawa's has lost what credibility he had.

Ok guys so i ve been trying to clear the new content all the weekend with the damn circles hiding my icons.

How i feel now:

http://www.cheerios.com/~/media/Imag...ut_Butter.ashx

Please remove this .

Personally, I like the change and would like to keep it. However, This isn't the first place I've heard people complaining about not liking it. An option where players can enable or disable this feature in the Hotbar settings seems to be a good option. We've got so many customization options for our cross/hotbars that there's no reason this shouldn't be a switchable setting as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Here is an alternative design for the designers to consider if they are so intent on having bright, sweeping white circles.

1. Just dim the icon when it isn't ready and include the count down digits. In the last 2 seconds before it is ready, do your white circle animation. This will attract you to the icon at an appropriate time, instead of distracting you all the time. For those who understand lag and want to get a jump, the shorter duration of the white circle sweep will allow them to "jump" conclusion with more precision (fire at 9 o'clock for example, instead of fire at 11:45).
2. Don't do the circle animation on GCD abilities. If needed, add a single element that can show GCD time remaining

---

PS3 limitations ;)

Maybe this will help. As you can see there are a total of 14 GCD circles spinning every time I attempt a combo. I attempted this on a Level 56 Wisent in sea of clouds and with doing a standard setting of combo rotations, it took about 35 seconds to kill the mob and it took 13 total presses of the keys making the total rendered number GCD circles to be:

14 circles * 13 button presses = 182 total circles rendered in 35 seconds.

Thus, approximately in 1 minute killing 2 mobs of this level solo my eyes see 364 circles * 60 minutes = 21,840 spinning circles my eyes have to process.

So how many hours did your testers play? In theory if you accumulate conservatively 24 hours of game play killing mobs that take 30s to kill a WAR will see a total of:

364 * 60 * 24= 524,160 GCD spinning circles I will have to process going forward.

So 10 days of game play: 5,241,600 circles. The defense rests.



http://i.imgur.com/mXtcZQC.jpg?1

There is an annoying issue where going some abilities on different cross bars, for some reason, will not have the circle once an ability is triggered. But, if I go to a different cross bar, then return to the original crossbar, the ability icon will now have a circle on it to indicate that it is on cooldown.

Tbh, all you had to do was add the little number to indicate cooldown - the circle icon was unnecessary and distracting. It is even misleading as it is light colored and highlights a skill - leading the player to think that such a skill is off cooldown instead of on a cooldown. It is counterintuitive because most people will associate darkness with a skill that is on cooldown and highlight/bright as a skill which is off cooldown.

Take a quick glance at the screen shot the player posted above.

Where do your eyes gravitate? To the abilities with the circles leading you to think that it is off cooldown and that you should hit it.

I think this is obvious. The light colored circles were a very, very bad idea imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Take a quick glance at the screen shot the player posted above.

Where do your eyes gravitate? To the abilities with the circles leading you to think that it is off cooldown and that you should hit it.

I think this is obvious. The light colored circles were a very, very bad idea imo.

---

This is exactly what I was trying show the devs. I mean the picture I posted, as you can see by the dashed lines there are 2 abilities covered by circles that are ready, and as you can see I was just finishing a combo shown in #8. So the decision making process when 14 circles are spinning constantly and come up all at same time every 2.5 seconds makes making quick decisions incredibly asinine.

So, until the white neon clocks get dimmed down (hopefully), here's what I did to get by. I dropped my hotbars all the way to the bottom of the screen and made a new bar of just oGCD's (plus Straight Shot) and put that way up at the top where I keep all my other important stuff. I put my progress bar up there too, so I'm glancing at that now instead of the bars.

Unfortunately, I don't feel confident enough to play any other jobs like this, by pure muscle memory, so I'm not really leveling anything except through Guildhests and maybe some FATEs. I was working on SCH just to casually heal 4-mans for friends, but I don't want peoples' lives in my hands while I'm essentially learning a new UI. :<

On the plus side, I'll have more time to finish leveling my crafts now. :3 (PLD /bstance looks soooo good on CRP, btw)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mykll

Yeah who exactly needed that auto-attack marker? Is the enemy in combat? What extremely rare circumstances do we need to know that an enemy fighting us is currently NOT auto-attacking?

---

Actually, that new autoattack marker is for when WE are engaged. Not like we already have a big circle marker on the target to tell us we are autoattacking... And to make things less useful, one would think this new addition works when soft-targetting other monsters, but nope. So it's just a dupicated marking which is occupying a memory slot they could use for what they say they can't o_O

Edit:
I've tested it today cause I was curious if it really was something useless or if I misunderstood it. I was doing the level 15 archer quest on my alt kitty (where you have to fight a load of ixali together with that elf npc in north shroud) and I had a bunch of them hitting me. It only marked the one I was hitting with that marker, the rest had none. And yes, all of them were autoattacking me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laraul

Old cool down overlay vs new cool down overlay. Not so much has changed when you examine the two side by side.

http://i.imgur.com/e4rhB5g.png * http://i.imgur.com/ehv8ZYp.png

---

They do act differently, though, because they reversed the transparency of the overlay. For the old one, the white parts of that overlay were the transparent part that showed that portion of the normal icon, whereas the dark parts of the overlay darkened and greyed out that portion of the icon. In the new version this is reversed, with the dark parts being transparent and showing the normal icon behind it and the white areas are the overlaid bright circle.

Ignoring the more minor change of putting it within a circle to make the edge clearer (which would probably be fine on its own), the bigger difference is in reversing which section is transparent. Now, instead of darkening part of the icon, they're brightening part of the icon. So now, instead of being brightest when it's available, it's instead brightest when it's not available. As several people have already mentioned, that's the part that makes it counter-intuitive and jarring (especially when other reasons for not being available, like level sync or skills only available under certain conditions, still follow the more standard pattern of darkening them to indicate when they're unavailable).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bebekurenai

I've tested it today cause I was curious if it really was something useless or if I misunderstood it. I was doing the level 15 archer quest on my alt kitty (where you have to fight a load of ixali together with that elf npc in north shroud) and I had a bunch of them hitting me. It only marked the one I was hitting with that marker, the rest had none. And yes, all of them were autoattacking me.

---

Well, ok. That is a little different. But, eh, still seems duplicated especially if you are in range and are able to auto-attack (unlike the BRD and MCH stances which don't auto-attack). Next time I am out I am going to have to get on one of those jobs, turn on the stance, and see if it changes that little indicator.

But aside from that, if you are in range (be it melee or BRD/MCH) and are in a stance that allows auto-attack, I don't see the situational times you need to know that. Yeah there are times when you tab through targets and you do not want to auto-attack the wrong one (non-aggroed group behind what you are fighting, something that is rooted, or asleep) but by the time you tab to those targets, the auto-attack already did its thing. And yeah I wish they would properly fix tab targeting.

So while that is interesting testing, and nice clarification, and I may do more later on, I am still failing to see why they gave very strict resources to this seemingly useless UI piece.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mykll

Well, ok. That is a little different. But, eh, still seems duplicated especially if you are in range and are able to auto-attack (unlike the BRD and MCH stances which don't auto-attack). Next time I am out I am going to have to get on one of those jobs, turn on the stance, and see if it changes that little indicator.

But aside from that, if you are in range (be it melee or BRD/MCH) and are in a stance that allows auto-attack, I don't see the situational times you need to know that. Yeah there are times when you tab through targets and you do not want to auto-attack the wrong one (non-aggroed group behind what you are fighting, something that is rooted, or asleep) but by the time you tab to those targets, the auto-attack already did its thing. And yeah I wish they would properly fix tab targeting.

So while that is interesting testing, and nice clarification, and I may do more later on, I am still failing to see why they gave very strict resources to this seemingly useless UI piece.

---

Yeah exactly, why add something that we already have (which coincidentally already worked better anyways and didn't need a "fix") and clutter the target bar even more? And then they give excuses on how they cant implement what we ask for cause the ui memory is already full.

This thread reminds of player's reaction when the TP bars we're first introduced. There were players whom complained the TP bars we're cumbersome and annoying to be forced to now see the party's TP. And then they realized that it really wasn't all that bad and overall most people welcomed the change.


What do I see here? "It's flashy and it annoy's me!" Life is full of annoyances. You get used to them. And you'll get used to the 'flashy' circles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laraul

This thread reminds of player's reaction when the TP bars we're first introduced. There were players whom complained the TP bars we're cumbersome and annoying to be forced to now see the party's TP. And then they realized that it really wasn't all that bad and overall most people welcomed the change.


What do I see here? "It's flashy and it annoy's me!" Life is full of annoyances. You get used to them. And you'll get used to the 'flashy' circles.

---

The difference is that with the TP bars we went from having no option to having something. Something that didn't make any changes to what you already saw, just an addition. But with the action bars, we changed an existing setup and downgraded from something that was intuitive and made sense to something that is confusing and distracting.

Some more time with it I just find it really distracting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laraul

And you'll get used to the 'flashy' circles.

---

I'm starting to get used to them, and getting better at learning to recognize the icons even when they're covered by that bright circle. But that doesn't change my view about it being a really poor design. It's a design that highlights the ones that should be obscured and obscures the ones that should be highlighted. Also, due to a much larger value difference marking the cooldowns, the more subtle value difference between a standard icon and a grayed out icon (for level sync blocked, or conditions not met, etc.) is much harder to see than it used to be.

I just don't get why can't they mimic the cooldown number like it is when you hover over the skill with mouse that design were the number in the middle is way more effective IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by odintius

I just don't get why can't they mimic the cooldown number like it is when you hover over the skill with mouse that design were the number in the middle is way more effective IMO.

---

but cooldown numbers exist already on lower left corner of the skills. when not on CD u see the TP/MP cost maybe thats why... but the numers are so small that u dont even noticed it :( , i would love to see that numbers instead of the circle.... but looks like it cant be done (or dont want to who knows...)

Side note that I don't remember anyone specifically saying. I play on PC, and have 3 class / job bars always up, with a 4th on top of that shared. So when things starting to go disco ball it is more profound than say only 1 bar, or when only using the crossbar, etc.

Am i the only one that actually likes this new feature? =/ Like damn i don't see why everyones moaning over this. It's completely fine to me and not the least bit distracting cus i'm focussed on the middle of the screen anyway.

People asked for better visible skilltimers, SE complies and people complain it's "too much". I bet if they change it again, complains will STILL happen. Moral of the story: No matter what SE does, theres always someone that's going to hate it. Just suck it up for pete's sake. Darnit. /endrant

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xLucia

Am i the only one that actually likes this new feature? =/ Like damn i don't see why everyones moaning over this. It's completely fine to me and not the least bit distracting cus i'm focussed on the middle of the screen anyway.

People asked for better visible skilltimers, SE complies and people complain it's "too much". I bet if they change it again, complains will STILL happen. Moral of the story: No matter what SE does, theres always someone that's going to hate it. Just suck it up for pete's sake. Darnit. /endrant

---

thats why addons exist , or why others mmorpg have options in how the cooldowns are showed