VIT will scale with attack power, STR will scale but not as much

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

So unlike MMOs, this one (which is a subscription mmo, meaning you can only do things every so often.) makes you waste your esos replacing a mistake they made. Whilst every other class can spend their esos and time regearing alts and new toons. THAT is not fair.

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Why do you keep griping about Esoterics? Your tank is using Prototype accessories.

Instead of foruming, just go grind some Alex 1 and you can replace them.

You should be running alex anyway for relic weapon.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I want to see what happens if VIT is weighted high enough over STR that it'll be a DPS loss to switch a parry VIT piece for a crit/det STR piece or something. Wouldn't that be some shit? Some tanks might have a full-on meltdown.

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This is actually what I expect to happen. If they do it the way I think they will having a strength piece on at all should result in an immediate and notable dps loss.

Basically I want strength to become a secondary type of determination for tanks in how 'effective' it is (that is, to say, not at all compared to a main stat).

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I want to see what happens if VIT is weighted high enough over STR that it'll be a DPS loss to switch a parry VIT piece for a crit/det STR piece or something. Wouldn't that be some shit? Some tanks might have a full-on meltdown.

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People will use the piece in that slot that doesn't have parry, or the piece that has less parry if both of them do. Just like we've been doing with left side gear for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Launched

People will use the piece in that slot that doesn't have parry, or the piece that has less parry if both of them do. Just like we've been doing with left side gear for a long time.

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If SE drops the value of STR to being more than 5% weaker than VIT as part of the damage stat, you are going to be using the VIT piece the majority of the time. (there is math on pg 14 of this thread)

What we are going to actually need are people who have both sets of gear to crunch some numbers both before patch (for a baseline), and after patch in full str then full fending (and maybe in no rt side gear or dex gear to measure the split between the 3 potential damage tiers. Of course there are also changes coming to PLD, so that will be a variable that will be difficult to measure for in numbers between patches. (possible changes to DRK, I doubt anything will be done to WAR )

I personally don't have a 3rd set of accessories, and being on console, I am going to have to ask my labradoodle to break out her abacus again...

I plan on doing bikini parses for numbers. Just wearing full right side i210 vit and full right side i210 strength both before and after patch.


Dexterity has no impact on tank damage.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

I plan on doing bikini parses for numbers. Just wearing full right side i210 vit and full right side i210 strength both before and after patch.


Dexterity has no impact on tank damage.

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The inference I got when reading the live letter was that for damage calcs VIT > STR > nothing/dex/int/mind

I did not intend to imply that dex did anything, I was looking to see what type of value STR had over an absolute baseline of 0

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

The inference I got when reading the live letter was that for damage calcs VIT > STR > nothing/dex/int/mind

I did not intend to imply that dex did anything, I was looking to see what type of value STR had over an absolute baseline of 0

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You'd also have to break your weapon to find that out (0 weapon damage/no stats from weapon), then.

Edit: And this would be much easier to find out by simply not wearing accessories at all since balancing determination on each set of accessories would be difficult.

One thing to remember is that until now, at a given ilevel, there have been less points of strength on strength accessories than points of vitality on a vitality accessories (the same is true for grade IV strength or vitality materia, but this evens out at grade V). Even if the conversion ends up being 1:1, vitality will still have a bigger contribution to damage output.

The problem is that the combination of both stats still contribute to damage, and left side pieces have both while right side pieces will just have one. That's going to be difficult to balance against dps classes - if you try to keep stat scaling as it is, the combined tank primary stat growth will outpace dps/healers for left side pieces. If you nerf it to balance the left side, tank primary stat growth will be slower than dps/healers for right side pieces. I'm guessing that it's going to lean towards the latter.

You know this whole "omg now I have to grind for new accessories how unfair!" thing is really dumb, considering that it's a new patch with new content so you're EXPECTED TO GRIND FOR NEW GEAR ANYWAY. Doesn't matter if you have str or vit right now, come patch 3.2 you're (most likely) going to get higher ilvl accessories with vit so.....?????

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

You'd also have to break your weapon to find that out (0 weapon damage/no stats from weapon), then.

Edit: And this would be much easier to find out by simply not wearing accessories at all since balancing determination on each set of accessories would be difficult.

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lol... remind me to refine the fine print for you next time. as you can't take off a weapon and breaking would be a fairly time consuming process, I did not include the weapon in the process. I thought it was safe to assume that if you did testing, you wouldn't change weapons for part of the test. It is a constant (as is your left side gear). And truth be told, i am not concerned with your present damage vs. mine. I am looking at testing my number now - after 3.2 with STR, with nothing, and with VIT - and measuring the % difference on me. And thus, comparing the % difference across the board with other players.


Why like this? I know my exact rotation by heart, I don't need to try to factor in potential errors by subbing in an unfamiliar rotation or any other MAJOR variables.

1 - keep all left side gear the same, including off hand.
2 - get a baseline (pre patch) for damage output while in OT stance, using your normal OT rotation in full STR > full VIT > Pentamelds (if you have them) > none (optional)
3 - test post patch results (again using OT stance and normal OT rotation) in full STR > full VIT > Pentamelds > none (optional)
4 - measure the % of difference

This should grant us a view of how the changes will effect our classes with the same gear both pre and post patch

@lylth
A big concern is the VIT as there is simply more of it available on gear vs str and in your base stats. When you start mixing pentamelds, you get significantly more of both stats in total. (60 – 49 – 47)

One way it could have been resolved is if the coding for the damage multiplier first scanned for your highest stat (vit or str) and the plugged in the formula for one or the other.
Base old formula GUESS FOR ILLUSTRATION WD + STR x1 +Det x.133 + Crit x.158 + sks x.125
If Higher VIT : WD + VIT x 1 + det x.133+ crit…….
If Higher STR: WD + STR x .8 + det x.133 + crit……

This gives VIT the same value as STR today (they have not mentioned damage nerfs to tanks in general), and it gives VIT 20% more value than STR post 3.2 (again, illustration purposes)

This is why testing pentamelds in comparison to full vit/str 3.2 builds is needed, as you can have 55 more STR + VIT on a pentameld over full vit accessory STR + VIT.

The DEVS say that we should be fine by having VIT, please forgive my lack of trust within what a DEV says how the game is supposed to operate, over how it actually operates.

If you don't have a broken Garuda's Gaze for testing then get out of my sight my main man.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

lol... remind me to refine the fine print for you next time. as you can't take off a weapon and breaking would be a fairly time consuming process, I did not include the weapon in the process. I thought it was safe to assume that if you did testing, you wouldn't change weapons for part of the test. It is a constant (as is your left side gear).

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All of what you said makes sense except for the left side gear being a constant. Until we know exactly how they are going to change the balance of strength and vitality contribution to attack power (What if, for example, strength contributes nothing to attack power at all? Or becomes as weak as determination? And since vitality on tank gear is higher than strength, it would create a notable difference in AP gain on i210 gear) we cannot definitely say that it will be the exact same, hence not wearing it to remove that being a question in mind. What you can say is that right side i210 will be the exact same because the stats on the items themselves have not been said to be changing.

Also what Brannigan said. :p

Pentamelds used to give you more total primary stats because you could overmeld primary stats, allowing you to trade in secondary stats for primary ones. If I understood the live letter correctly, while you will be able to fill existing slots in the new gear with primary stats (i.e. your guaranteed melds), you will only be able to overmeld with secondary stats. If the new raid/token gear is meldable, that could make up for the discrepancy, but you'd only be able to compensate with one strength materia per accessory - the four overmelds would need to be secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

...Also what Brannigan said. :p

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LULZ

I was looking at it from a perspective that the only choice in gearing has to do with right side gear, you don't have a choice in adding str or VIT on left side gear (well yes with the new melding, but I am removing that entirely as a variable. I am free to admit there could be some fault within this logic, but my purpose is to get a general answer to the difference in the main build option for 3.2. I am not attempting to go full dervy on this and test exact stat weights. I want to know that if I am at 1000 now (full str), and in full STR in 3.2 i go to 800, but in full VIT i would sit again at 1000. I will start to care more about the exact number if 3.2 full str is 990 and full vit is 1000

and Lyth yes that is what pentamelds are going to be, but the melds today have 31/29 str/vit for a total of 60. The comparison would be for pentamelds we have right now.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

LULZ

I was looking at it from a perspective that the only choice in gearing has to do with right side gear, you don't have a choice in adding str or VIT on left side gear (well yes with the new melding, but I am removing that entirely as a variable. I am free to admit there could be some fault within this logic, but my purpose is to get a general answer to the difference in the main build option for 3.2. I am not attempting to go full dervy on this and test exact stat weights. I want to know that if I am at 1000 now (full str), and in full STR in 3.2 i go to 800, but in full VIT i would sit again at 1000. I will start to care more about the exact number if 3.2 full str is 990 and full vit is 1000

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I'm mostly more curious about the exact difference (I want to see just how hard they nerf strength, basically), but I'm only going to have a few dozen data points to compare because god I am too lazy for this most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

One thing to remember is that until now, at a given ilevel, there have been less points of strength on strength accessories than points of vitality on a vitality accessories (the same is true for grade IV strength or vitality materia, but this evens out at grade V). Even if the conversion ends up being 1:1, vitality will still have a bigger contribution to damage output.

The problem is that the combination of both stats still contribute to damage, and left side pieces have both while right side pieces will just have one. That's going to be difficult to balance against dps classes - if you try to keep stat scaling as it is, the combined tank primary stat growth will outpace dps/healers for left side pieces. If you nerf it to balance the left side, tank primary stat growth will be slower than dps/healers for right side pieces. I'm guessing that it's going to lean towards the latter.

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I would not worry so much. Sure, left side pieces would scale +4.5 AP per 10 ilevels total (Weapon/Body/Legs: 8 Str + 10 Vit = 9 AP, Head/Hands/Feet: 5 Str + 6 Vit = 5.5 AP, Waist: 4 Str + 4 Vit = 4 AP) more than other roles, but the right side would scale at -10 AP per 10 ilevels total (4 points Vit/Str = 2 points AP * 5 Accessories) if Vit/Str have a 1:.5 ratio with AP. This would mean that at a 50/50 split influence on AP, the gap between Tank/DpS damage output would still increase as ilevels increase.

The new melding system may have already be prepared for this as +75 Str (37.5 AP) from 5 Strength V materia melds on Accessories would be absorbed within 70 ilevels (-38.5 AP).

One thing to consider is how big the AP gap between Str and Vit tanks had grown since level 50 i50 and now. It started at a 25/50 AP difference and is now a 235/260 difference.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

I'm mostly more curious about the exact difference (I want to see just how hard they nerf strength, basically), but I'm only going to have a few dozen data points to compare because god I am too lazy for this most of the time.

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Just send them to Dervy. He's going to be doing them in the middle of Midas Progression, if he has time in the middle of his 12 hour raids lmao.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

You'd also have to break your weapon to find that out (0 weapon damage/no stats from weapon), then.

Edit: And this would be much easier to find out by simply not wearing accessories at all since balancing determination on each set of accessories would be difficult.

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Just do Damage / (1 + DET / 7290). That'll scale it for 0 WD, 0 DET. Determination should function, roughly the same, across all Jobs. DET is just a simple multiplier anyway.

Kind of hard to tell the exact scaling because using Linear Regression solvers in Excel is sometimes a bit wonky, and the coefficients you get are based purely off the data points you feed it, but it should do the trick.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

LULZ

I was looking at it from a perspective that the only choice in gearing has to do with right side gear, you don't have a choice in adding str or VIT on left side gear (well yes with the new melding, but I am removing that entirely as a variable. I am free to admit there could be some fault within this logic, but my purpose is to get a general answer to the difference in the main build option for 3.2. I am not attempting to go full dervy on this and test exact stat weights. I want to know that if I am at 1000 now (full str), and in full STR in 3.2 i go to 800, but in full VIT i would sit again at 1000. I will start to care more about the exact number if 3.2 full str is 990 and full vit is 1000

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You can use "All Class" INT/MIND" gear to vigorously test Vitality scaling on left side... Attribute points can also be used very efficiently to ensure that your control value (STR/VIT) is the same when you're gear swapping left side, as well.

Unfortunately, if the change isn't visual on the character stats page for AP, (if both VIT and STR are scaling AP, it should), then you will have to go full Dervy and collect 100 solid data points to get accurate VIT/STR scale values.

Im main war, and i love go full str and mixed vit str, im dissapointed as SE don't let me the mixes i wanna gear no more, I'll must go full vit and maybe doing less damage than now with a lot of vitality pol as inservible if it too big. Ideal is Less life, with a decent resistance and doing the great dps as you can, i thought left the game sometimes andi didn't because i enjoy the war class, i wait to see the changes by myself but, if i don't like bye bye FF14, this game is more static and each time more, rotations, stablished gears and stats... and so easy every time, fault of SE they must put since begining a hard leveling dungeons, bosses with a lot of habilities and actions, like in FF11, a sistem where you must built your set gear to beat a determinate boss, mixed habilities (for example a fire magic with a axe hit and create "fire axe hit" betwen a warrior and Black mage for example) damm SE turns this game very bored! at least will there new pvp modes but i guess so later...

This change can be see as a buff and even a nerf on pve,
but i think it can be bad for pvp, it will make tank have extra vit tank on pvp.
I mean SE will now calculate how a tank is doing damage for the dps check of the raid, scaled on vita. You can't have more attack power by switching accesories.
By doing this it's easier to be acurate on the tank damages.
I think the damages provided by the vita accesories will be needed to reach dps check.
what do you think about this ?
but i still think , it had to happen, too much toxic vita vs str treads on the forum, you don't want change like this ? you should stop to make toxic treads for months...
Because at least you can't say SE don't listen player, Many players asking to get vit accesories with some str on, many players asking to get nerf of the crafted accesories, and it's what we got. they scalled on vit to make it only reliable on tank.
This change is what players was asking for.

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

Just send them to Dervy. He's going to be doing them in the middle of Midas Progression, if he has time in the middle of his 12 hour raids lmao.

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I just realized I won't even have a day off for the patch like I usually do because lmao core swapping at work for the next ten months. Rip all free time forever and ever amen.

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Originally Posted by MiniTyra

Just do Damage / (1 + DET / 7290). That'll scale it for 0 WD, 0 DET. Determination should function, roughly the same, across all Jobs. DET is just a simple multiplier anyway.

Kind of hard to tell the exact scaling because using Linear Regression solvers in Excel is sometimes a bit wonky, and the coefficients you get are based purely off the data points you feed it, but it should do the trick.

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Just use Statistica like a sane person. :p