That's exactly it, like this entire thread is pretty much "if you like what i don't like, Something is wrong with you, white knight" etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
As the old saying goes: Misery loves company.
Why is "It's something to do" apparently a valid defense?
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12-20-2015, 02:25 PMBlood-Aki
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12-20-2015, 02:35 PMNominousSo I guess all of the people who did the same thing in 1.0 were negatively impacting the game too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarik
That was sarcasm. This isn't~
All of the complaining and speaking with wallets lead to ARR. There will always be the defenders and extreme supporters, which is why FFXI was around for so long. It certainly wouldn't have existed without the devout followers. -
12-20-2015, 03:36 PMHellboy-sa
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12-20-2015, 04:43 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHWhat is that? It's so pretty! +-+Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy-sa
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12-20-2015, 06:24 PMLambdafishThey should make a new title just for this person that says <soul without life>Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy-sa
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12-20-2015, 06:34 PMLambdafishFor the most part it is. Now I can't speak for everyone, because there are nasty people on both sides who will attack everyone, but the attitude on the forums does stink, and I don't think you fully realise how often the behavior that gets called out is justified, on this thread alone it has happened a lot. The problem is that people are in the mindset that anyone who disagrees with them is attacking them, which is simply not the case. If you like relic, then you should tell people WHY you like it, and let SE know the parts you like and the parts you don't, thats what the people complaining are doing, as they are justified in doing. Nobody is attacking your opinion (ok some people might be, but simply because a complaint thread exists doesnt mean that you should be offended) and we need to build a forum community where it is ok to express your opinion and debate said opinion without people being offended just because they disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCurls
I'll even post some points that I have heard for and against:
For:
- Relic is relaxing and is easy to do at your own pace
- Promotes going back into old content
- Makes crafting relevant
Against:
- The grind is too much for the reward
- It is exactly the same as old relic
- On top of this it screams lazy design
- Everything about specialist crafting
- The grind is only fun if you make it fun (see lazy design)
- The fact that it was delayed (nothing against the design, but the quest suffered greatly from it)
If people want to add more then maybe we can have discussion, but don't get offended that someone thinks something different, because all of the points above are true for a lot of people -
12-20-2015, 07:06 PMTheCurlsA quick forum search for the term "white knight" yields surprising results counter to your claim. Not that it ultimately matters. Someone, may have been you, pointed out that both sides are annoying in this argument. I just happen to find the ad hominem attacks from the negativity side of the debate to be far, far more annoying and relentless than people defending the game. These so-called white-knights are only being defensive because they're being attacked, ruthlessly and without reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
There are only so many times people can hear "omg this game is DONE." "I quit!" "screw this SE sucks" before the inevitable "well, if you don't like it, don't do it" argument comes out. And whenever someone says that, they're instantly branded a white knight. Is the game perfect? Of course not. But it's still good enough for people to enjoy, even if some of you think it's utter trash and people who enjoy it are among the dumbest, bottom-feeding vermin life has to offer.
The fact of the matter is, this is a 3.15 patch. It is not a major content patch. That comes in a handful of weeks from now. It seems that an outspoken portion of this community can't understand this fact and have taken up arms to set fire to everything in their vicinity. They're trying to sow discord so they can point at the pile of ashes and say "Aha! I told you it was doomed!" while they're holding the smoldering torch in their hands. -
12-20-2015, 08:05 PMLambdafishHave you wondered why people are upset? From what I have seen people are very vocal (albeit maybe too vocal) in the REASONS that they are upset. Saying "Don't like it, don't do it" is completely counterproductive to discussion and in a way invalidates their opinion (I have seen more people who are in defence of the game claiming to be a victim of this, even though I have seen those same people do this far more). I am just stating my observation, but, trying to be as unbiased as possible, that's the way that discussions seem to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCurls
The problem is that those same people were also disappointed with the 3.1 patch (to be fair, so was I), and the fact of the matter is that we were supposed to get the relic months ago, but it has been delayed again and again. The REASON that people are upset is because this was a highly anticipated patch with content that should have been in a major patch and the fact that it is lackluster, and in places insulting (if you want reasons why, see above), on top of an already controversial 3.1 patch (diadem and LoV, while fun to a few, has done more harm than good) has left a bad taste in the mouths of a noticeable chunk of the player base. The fact that you don't know this goes to show that you haven't been reading and understanding what people have been saying, and perhaps the reason that you are being so defensive is that you don't want to hear what others have to say about a product that you personally enjoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCurls
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12-20-2015, 10:27 PMAzureFlareI see this argument all the time. And yes, you are correct: if you don't like it, don't do it. But people seem to forget that 'If you don't like it, don't do it!' too much results into people getting bored completely because there will be nothing to do even faster. Then the inevitable 'Well you don't like the game anymore, maybe you should take a break!' comes. Why would anyone return to a game after their friends have arguably gone away from the game, the content remains of the same structure in a slightly different texture and there is no transparency on what the future holds?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCurls
And worst of all, this argument is solely customer-to-customer, or player-to-player. You're essentially telling people to stop playing the game and do something else. If I was a designer, I'd be pretty curious where I went wrong if straight after a content patch, regardless big or small, my own playerbase is telling each other to stop playing the game. And then have it happen a few times in a row too. Shouldn't you be advertising the game for me? Telling others how great it is and defending it with something stronger than 'you know, you can also just leave it be'? Did I make the content just for people to 'let it be'? Depends entirely on the target audience, but then if the audience is that small I'd put some very big question marks behind that.
Basically, yes, it is a valid argument. But it has no substance into it, at all. As a player, it doesn't tell me anything about what's to come and doesn't provide me with anything more, leaving it entirely up to the designers. As a designer, this argument is literally useless: it only provides the feedback that people are.. not doing the content. Well, could've done that with a stats tracker running on server data anyway. Oh, and that they are telling each other not to do content. Even someone saying 'It sucks!' is more valuable feedback at that point (and likewise, 'I like it!'). -
12-20-2015, 11:22 PMAlahraI'd like to, as you request, discuss some of these.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
The i200 to i210 Anima grind has a better time to reward ratio than several of the ARR Relic steps. The Atma stage was a several hours long grind not unlike the first stage of the Anima line, but it provided absolutely no benefit. All it did was change your weapon's appearance (generally very slightly, at that). While the item level of the weapon changed, its stats did not. Comparatively, the first step of the new quest does provide a usable weapon, which while it may not be of great use to players that have been on the game regularly since the launch of HW, is a great way to get a starter weapon for an alt job or for a fresh 60 without the investment of tomestones, letting people gear up a bit more rapidly.
The Animus stage required a similar number of content runs/tomestones, proportionally, to that required to get the Anima stage tokens because of the relative lack of tomestone rewards at the time. Given the original FATE respawn timers for the 27 FATEs required for this stage (which could range to anywhere from 2-8 hours for several of them), Animus weapons likely took more overall time logged into the game than the Anima weapon will.
The Novus stage required 6,900 *more* tomestones than the Anima stage does (800 per Mysterious Map, plus 1500 for the Superior Enchanted Ink), in addition to an extremely costly and RNG-crippled Materia Melding grind. While you could avoid some of the tomestone grind with the Daily Expert quest, sticking only to Daily Roulettes for tomestones on Novus resulted in a longer daily grind to get everything you needed (by perhaps 2 weeks, though I don't remember exact tomestone values on the roulettes in 2.3, so it's hard to be precise).
The Nexus grind didn't have a gigantic tomestone cost (and is one of my favorite stages as a result); however, to do it efficiently, you relied on a random window and were forced to grind within that window if one came up, greatly restricting playtime. For comparison, doing just Daily Roulettes for lights (which nets somewhere in the vicinity of 30 lights per day at original values), you're looking at about 65 days to complete the Nexus at a casual pace. Just with Roulettes on Anima, you're looking at approximately 40 days.
Zodiac also got a lot of hate for its heavy reliance on RNG, but without hard data on the drop rates, it's difficult to compare it directly to the investment required by the Anima stage. It's also worth noting that Zodiac required far more difficult 3-star tokens (which all but required Omnicrafting to have a decent HQ chance) to complete, with somewhat difficult to acquire materials (using the much-maligned desynthesis system). By contrast, while Anima requires more items (16 in total), they're easier to craft, as Specialists can reasonably HQ 1-star items at present so long as they have kept up with their Red Scrip gear. While prices are high on some servers right now, over time, they will come down, as the number of folks able to craft these will likely be larger than those that could craft all of the Perfect items for Zodiac.
There are also some significant ways that the Anima stage is structured to be more player friendly than previous stages, so it's not really "exactly like" the old relic at all. It uses similar concepts (it kind of has to, unless you expected them to create an entirely new type of content for it--the general types of content in the game allow for FATEs, Trials, Maps, Dungeons, Levequests, and Hunts). I do wonder why there wasn't more interaction with Diadem but they probably didn't want players having even more reason to run it when it's already fairly popular content because of the i210 drops (that has changed somewhat after the drop rate nerfs--but the Anima stage was likely nearly complete or complete before they made those changes which likely did not leave enough time to newly incorporate Diadem into the process).
Anima is more friendly to the player in a couple important ways. Primarily, it interacts with several avenues of content, all of varying dedication, to allow the player to tailor how arduous their grind will be. It's not the first stage to do this (both Nexus and Zeta worked in similar ways). Anima is superior to those stages, though, in that we can decide how to work on the Anima according to our own schedules, rather than the schedule of the shifting "bonus window." Additionally, this is one of the only stages that is very "daily friendly," allowing casual playtime to complete the relic in a reasonable amount of time (a little over a month). Anima also is one of the only Relic stages to have a "solo" avenue through the Beastmen quests, which works well for people that don't always want to be playing with others.
The questline as a whole is actually worth doing even if you don't intend or to or simply don't have the time to complete the Anima stage before 3.2, as steps 1 and 2 provide usable weapons *without tomestone costs.* Completing the Awoken weapon provides you with a weapon worth 990 Esoterics--just over two weeks if you cap tomes every week! That's pretty significant, and the first two stages are not particularly arduous (the first one is the worst, since it's an RNG-fest, but the second is like three hours worth of dungeons--far better than 13 or 14 Expert dungeons!). That was never really the case in ARR, as the "in between" stages were often just as long as the stages to push a weapon to "maximum" level.
The developers have also, it seems, listened to player feedback on another part of the questline. The original Atma grind required you to be on a job with a Zenith (or later, higher) Relic weapon, meaning that you couldn't level alt jobs on FATEs at the same time. It was a very common player request for this to be changed, and lo and behold, our new "Atma 2.0" grind allows you to be on any job you want to get the drops, regardless of level (well, not entirely regardless--you probably want to be at least level 50 :P).
It's also worth noting that, so far at least, we seem to be getting a more polished story experience--while the weapons (as of yet) don't seem to have unique stories, the addition of new "job-specific" quests suggests we could see something like that in the future. We're getting a new character and development of that character (and they've even teased that we might have some influence over our weapon's personality through in-quest dialogue choices, though that's just speculation at this point). While the overarching brushstrokes of the story are the same right now, we only have the first chapter, so it's probably a little too early to judge the story (though it's safe to say we've already got more of it than we really got for the whole of the Zodiac line).
So with a lot of these general changes in mind, I actually wouldn't describe the design as "lazy" at all, but rather "thoughtful." The Anima grind is currently structured in such a way that shows the developers have learned from some of the problems they created with the previous Relic/Zodiac grind from ARR. However--the backbone of the Relic quest still functioned, and functioned rather well, at what it was meant to do: give non-raiders a long-term goal to create a powerful weapon and reinvigorate content that's not had much engagement from the playerbase for whatever reason. As a result, the *foundation* of the Anima grind is the same, and they gave us no indication that it was going to really change.
Regarding Specialist crafting, I personally am not bothered by them, though I can understand why others are. I'd much rather have the recipes be Specialist only than have the recipes locked behind arduous Master book grinds and Desynthesis, as they were for the Zodiac stage.
When it comes to the grind, well: of course it's only as fun as you make it. It's a grind. And we were never told it would be anything *but* a grind. Yoshi-P did make a statement or two about the grind not being as tough as it has been in the past, and so far, that has been entirely the case, as the Anima grind is less time consuming than the worst stages of the ARR Relic grind. In fact, the only stage that was significantly shorter than it was the Zeta stage, but it was always my guess that the Zeta stage was less taxing precisely because anyone at that stage had already put in so much work--it was the Home Stretch, as it were.
I actually *do* agree that the delay on the questline as a whole was problematic, however. They probably could have given us the first section of it earlier on, perhaps a month or two after Alexander Savage was released, so the i200 weapons would have seen more use. The Anima stage, however, is positioned roughly as we should expect it would be, about 6 to 8 weeks from the expected release date for patch 3.2. Comparatively, it's positioned at about the same spot on the timeline as Nexus was and Zeta was (we did have Zeta for a lot longer because of the extended nature of patch 2.5, though). -
12-20-2015, 11:36 PMWinterLunaI got called a white knight for saying I enjoyed the relic in another thread so this isn't entirely true. It's the first thing people jump to in their defense of disliking it. "OMG you love SE white knight can't you see they are BRAINWASHING US!? It's so bad I hate it so you can't enjoy it!!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood-Aki
And my response is cool, unsub then. You're right about the misery part and I agree with you although we don't share the same opinion on the relic. -
12-21-2015, 12:08 AMReilynA good read, but one thing left me wanting; what of 2.0 relic? What did they take away from player feedback (if anything at all) about that? Any signs of inspiration from the original relic quest requiring the defeat of actual challenging content bosses is completely absent, instead replaced with a revamped culmination of numerous grinds anyone can do in their sleep (or fall asleep doing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Why is it they exclude the possibility of involving something at least as challenging as thordan ex as an alternate route for players who want to climb a skill wall for a fast relic as opposed to mindless grinding for a slow one? That is a design choice they've never used again after 2.0, and I have a few theories as to why. None of them are flattering for SE, nor our fellow players who complained hardmode titan's giant butt being a veritable wall was bad for the game. -
12-21-2015, 12:10 AMAlahraWell, there was actually a lot of feedback about the original questline, too. The fact that we *don't* have to do challenging content for the Zodiac weapon and now the Anima weapon was because people wanted the weapon *not* to need challenging content. Rewards for challenging content have typically been in raid content ever since.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilyn
Mind you, I *liked* the original 2.0 relic quest, but I'm also a midcore player generally and I do enjoy handling tougher content (though Savage is beyond me, personally). I wish they'd put something like Titan HM in there again, too (in ARR, I was hoping for a stage that revisited the three original EX primals--still the best set of content we've ever received, in my mind--for the last part), but I understand why they haven't and why we have what we've got now. -
12-21-2015, 12:23 AMReilynAnd that is what grinds my gears. Have my like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
This annoys me even more so since unlike previous raid tiers, the relic is at ilvl of gordian/upgraded eso currently, and will remain on par with bis weapons until 3.2, or if they decide to bump up gordian weapon ilvl like they did with T5 weapons in 2.0 before 3.2 comes around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
As a result; Hilariously enough, bis weapons for DRK, WAR, and SCH to name a few don't come from any content resembling a challenge at all, unless you count trying not to fall asleep.
My co-healer and I go through healing savage manipulator with MP constantly <5k, and having to deal with sporadic damage. My reward is: no title, a mount that looks like crap, sounds literally like garbage (seriously, it's the sound of a bunch of trashcans), and the chance at a weapon... that gets outdone by doing content anyone can do while dozing off...? -
12-21-2015, 12:30 AMAlahraYes, the general tradeoff is that you can, with a solid group, get that weapon much, much earlier than the Relic/Anima questline (as the "max level" weapons for that avenue are always unobtainable until well after the raid content is released. Raid weapons are BiS for several classes as well (but that's an issue of itemization and the generally poor functioning of secondary stats in the game so far). They've at least deadened the impact of RNG on raiding thanks to the addition of the token system, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilyn
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12-21-2015, 12:31 AMMoqiDid people complain about challenging content, or did they complain about Titan? Because Titan was a roadblock to many for reasons unrelated to the actual difficulty of the fight - and it was the same for Titan EX which had nothing to do with the relic. They had to unlock the other primals gated because people complained about the fight there too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Genuine question because I've never seen anyone complain about Garuda, Ifrit, Chimera or Hydra. I actually see that part of the relic mostly getting praise. Maybe the problem wasn't difficult content but "Titan is unplayable, don't ever put that particular trial in the relic" and SE took it to mean "don't put any trial ever again in the relic"... and it wouldn't be the first time that SE completely misunderstands what peole are asking. -
12-21-2015, 12:37 AMReilynIt's a sad possibility I'm curious about too. We coulda've had leviathan, ramuh, shiva, etc be involved with the relic instead of me catching myself falling asleep at the keyboard in copperbell, and thousand snores on more than one occasion for atma books.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
Right now, what I'm taking away from this is the casual/incapable players have literally resulted in killing the feel of satisfaction in anything relic related after 2.0; the last time I ever felt good about doing anything relic-related. Watching those people punch holes into a ship, and watching it sink since isn't cool. -
12-21-2015, 12:39 AMAlahraThey don't complain about it so much *now* but 2 years ago, people did, and Titan HM runs used to sell like crazy on my server back then. Titan was rather hard content at the time it was released, with DPS checks that were pretty difficult at the time given available gear and healing checks that required almost full i70 to reasonably survive, especially given that the game was new and people hadn't really worked out the best priorities for DPS and all of that. Titan did have *other* issues of course, namely with the apparent lag caused by the way Weight of the Land and Landslide render (I think it's telling they have't used those same effects outside of Titan EX and Ultima HM since then, at least, not that I recall).Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
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12-21-2015, 12:46 AMRiceisNiceEven if you opt out the primals, look at the other steps of the base relic; you had crafting with materia melding, fetching items, and well..actual lore behind your weapon as an individual. The Anima quests opt out on all of this entirely (including trials), and makes you revisit 2.x dungeons rather than all 3.x dungeons and EX primals (which at this point have echo mind you, I don't think even titan HM on release had that). Same with step 3's progression if you aren't using Alexander to speed it up. It really looks like they haven't put any work in utilizing new content in the current expansion, but instead making us revisit 2.0. I brought the expansion with expectations that I'm playing with new features of the game, not features that require us to play in 2.0 areas to progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
And speaking from experience, weight of the land was the only AoE marker that would lock up my screen during titan EX and most of my deaths would attribute to getting hit by it because we were stacked. Only way for me to avoid it was to stack way from the other players and move pre-emptively (so I don't drop it in front of them, esp during double weights) -
12-21-2015, 12:51 AMReilynI seen the videos of the funky lag, but never really experienced it first hand as clearly (or maybe I just accepted any hiccups as my fault, and muscled through it anyway). One such video is of a person clearly getting out of landslide's visual before it dissappeared, but being ejected out of the ring anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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12-21-2015, 12:55 AMRiceisNiceFrom what I hear, it was notoriously bad on release, the latency anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by Reilyn
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12-21-2015, 01:09 AMMoqiThanks. I've never seen anyone complain about DPS checks, only lag, but I got to Titan in 2.2 so it was already old content. Ramuh was the strictest DPS check I've experienced on primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
It was terrible. I had Run on cooldown, but evading it was all luck. I practiced for months and always randomly died... as soon as I got a PS4, I cleared it first without ever getting hit by anything and had it on farm. It was like a completely different fight.Quote:
I seen the videos of the funky lag, but never really experienced it first hand as clearly (or maybe I just accepted any hiccups as my fault, and muscled through it anyway). One such video is of a person clearly getting out of landslide's visual before it dissappeared, but being ejected out of the ring anyway...
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12-21-2015, 01:13 AMReilyn* insert obligatory PS3 complaint here *Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
I always have, and always will play on PC, and my verizon connection is pretty good. I don't recall being owned by lag back in 2.0 that hard, but I don't deny it was an issue. -
12-21-2015, 01:13 AMAlahraI'll agree I was hoping for more weapon-specific Lore as well, though honestly, we don't know that there won't be any. If they don't at least talk a bit about what the Anima stage is when we get it for each weapon, I'd be pretty surprised (I'm sure the text has been datamined of course, but I'm sure most people have avoided it like the plague for spoilers). It does seem like we're not remaking an old legendary weapon this time though, so in a sense we're *making* the lore--so we wouldn't get a lore dump at the start anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I was also surprised by the inclusion of 2.x dungeons, though I wasn't particularly surprised by the inclusion of Snowcloak and Keeper of the Lake, since those are story dungeons. It felt really odd to me that Great Gubal Library and Fractal/Neverreap weren't included, honestly, and I would have rather had those than the 4 Hard Mode dungeons we did get. However, they probably skipped Fractal/Neverreap because people complained so much about being burnt out on them.
But most of the content used in the Anima line, outside of the dungeons for the 170-200 stage, is still "new" content that came out this raid tier, which has been par for the course with the questline ever since they introduced the Zodiac Saga during SCoB. It's almost never engaged with the absolute newest content except in indirect ways. As I said above, I'm still rather surprised Diadem doesn't have anything as of yet to do with the Anima questline, but I'd lay money that it will be involved with whatever the next stage we get in 3.2 is (if there is one in 3.2, anyway).
Beyond that, they're kind of in a catch-22: one of the longstanding complaints about the game is that it is too quick to abandon old content. The Relic's a rather effective way to create reason to run some of the older stuff, as people aren't going to run outdated content without suitable carrots (cosmetics simply aren't enough for a lot of the population). However, putting old content in the Relic line is seen as a disappointment to some players--but if they didn't, they'd also have to find suitable ways to get people interested in the *older* stuff. And they also have financial incentive to milk content for as much as they can, since the team is small--I don't mean that as an excuse for them, but just a reality of the situation. Given the team's size, we're lucky we do have so many things to do with what content we do have (hell, WoW's team is probably 3 or 4 times the size of FFXIV's, and they have *less* content).
Edit (for a brief aside on lag and Titan): Some of the complaints about lag were in part because people hadn't yet realized that you have to be out of the marked area when the *cast bar* finishes, rather than when the visible animation for it finishes. That's the case for all AoE's, but in Titan, it's of special note because of how weird Weight of the Land is. Something in its visual effect causes a lot of animation display, so it frequently displays late or lingers for a little longer, creating the appearance that it's still "safe" when it's not. Similar things actually could happen in Leviathan with the water spouts before his Dives (especially on PS3) and we haven't seen attack animations of that nature since then, either. -
12-21-2015, 01:15 AMMoqiWell, that and hunts were the only issues I ever had with the PS3. Why they didn't change the AoE markers/effects (if that was the problem) I'll never understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilyn
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12-21-2015, 01:19 AMAlahraHonestly? It's probably because it's Square Enix and their art team is *nuts* when it comes to how things look aesthetically. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
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12-21-2015, 01:47 AMRiceisNiceThe circumstances between the two are different though, mostly due to the expansion (and the expectations that well...come from an expansion). Zodiac has you revisiting level 50 content. Most of the approaches in anima requires you revisiting 50 content at level 60. Even if you exclude the dungeons, you have four 2.x beast tribes, 2.x hunts, and 2.x tomestones, while leaving the "current tier" or even 3.x content mostly un-utilized, specifically the EX primals and the level 60 dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Again like I mentioned above, there's a difference between when they were making old content in 2.0 be relevant for future 2.0 relic steps. We're in the 3.0 cycle now, it's backwards thinking to make people go revisit 2.0 areas, especially for something like beast tribes that doesn't make you interact with other players like you would for dungeons or even FATEs. Is there a pressing need to make something like 2.x hunts (which in hindsight actually give more than 3.x since you use allied seals for relic, but not centaruo seals) or beast tribes more lively?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
There's going to be times where this just won't fly anymore with the players, especially if they're not meeting the standards that they themselves have set in the past. Even if you're trying to argue that WoW gets less content (because their patch cycles, while longer, add a lot more content which lasts a lot longer, including a new area, daily hubs, and the such), there's always the aspect of Quality > quantity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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12-21-2015, 02:04 AMAlahraThat's certainly true, though on a personal level I don't mind some interaction with 2.0 content. I'd much rather they keep the old areas and content at least somewhat relevant, rather than have every expansion be a giant "reset button," as is the case with WoW. It's also not required in any way to visit old content for the Anima stage, and in fact the most efficient way is to do Alexander Normal (which is how I have to assume the player that finished in 3 days or so got theirs). We will likely see less use of ARR content for future stages--it's possible they dipped back into it to, again, avoid making us focus so much on content so many folks had been playing ad nauseum for a lot of 3.0 already. It's always a struggle to find a good balance--on the one hand, 3.1 was delayed, so the meager content helping we got in 3.0 was very tired to a lot of the playerbase. On the other, if we had needed to farm Fractal and Neverreap specifically (rather than the more flexible need for Tomestones), there would have likely been a lot of upset players as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I don't personally get why they didn't include the HM versions of Bismarck and Ravana though (or even the EX versions, which aren't all that bad with the availability of Echo--but I suppose that goes back to their apparent decision not to force 8-man content on the relic quest anymore).
Not more lively, no. I'm...actually pretty puzzled by the specific inclusion of Allied Seals and not Centurio Seals. Regarding the Beast Tribe quests, if I had to guess, they wanted to throw people a bone that had done them back in the day. I never did them myself (I loathe Daily quests after playing WoW for so long), and the extra avenue of progress was enough for me to actually consider doing them (but I ultimately decided against it). In this case, I think it's less about making the content available to newer players (as is the case with dungeons and the like) and more about just providing options to make the grind more player friendly.Quote:
Is there a pressing need to make something like 2.x hunts (which in hindsight actually give more than 3.x since you use allied seals for relic, but not centaruo seals) or beast tribes more lively?
Personally, I have barely touched Hunts since 2.3, so it's actually a bit refreshing to be doing them again, but I know a lot of folks did them to the point where they were absolutely tiring. I hit that point after the initial 2.3 grind for Sands/Oils of Time and very rarely engaged with them after that point, though.
I haven't played WoW since MoP, so I only know what I hear through the grapevine about the amount of content they get. I do know they frequently don't get additional dungeons each expansion, or if they do, it's only three or so, from back when I played. And I hear a lot about how there's nothing to do in WoW these days outside of logging in every day to manage your garrison. That to me says WoW has an issue with the amount of content, but as admitted, I'm only going off what I hear about it--I haven't liked that game since Wrath of the Lich King and I tend to stay away from it. I much prefer the steady pace of content releases here, even if they're sometimes smaller bits.Quote:
There's going to be times where this just won't fly anymore with the players, especially if they're not meeting the standards that they themselves have set in the past. Even if you're trying to argue that WoW gets less content (because their patch cycles, while longer, add a lot more content which lasts a lot longer, including a new area, daily hubs, and the such), there's always the aspect of Quality > quantity.
Regarding past standards, I don't recall any that they've egregiously broken, outside of perhaps the delays between 3.0 and 3.1. But it also depends on what you're referring to. I know some folks have been bringing up that old keynote address where Yoshi mentioned fun needing to come first, but...that's a subjective thing. Personally, I'm having a ton of fun now that Anima's in the game--but I also recognize that not everyone likes this style of gameplay. -
12-21-2015, 02:15 AMRiceisNice\Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
As someone who already has burn out for the game and just wants to take the relic approach rather slowly, this is why it bothers me. It's most efficent to spam Alexander run, but I honestly can't be bothered enough to do my relic that fast, so I'd rather take the slow approach (which means going back to the old content). Doubly so when they kept delaying this content because it wasn't ready or whatever, it does not reflect 5+ months of extra developmental time. Of course I could opt out on doing beast tribe and the level 50 roulette for poetics, but it'll essentially double the time investment needed to get done, at that point I'll probably unsub from the game before then.
Funny enough, I bought the WoD expansion and 30 days of game time for me and my friend just to take a break from this game, and at least get our characters to 100 for the new expansion (which has my attention).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
In a nutshell, WoD (the current expansion) is mirroring a lot of the issues that 3.x is going on with right now. The entire expansion as a whole feels like it didn't change or evovle your character with the (imo excessive) ability pruning, some feels like they've lost something or feel oversimplified), so you were essentially playing the same character as you did in MoP. There's a lack of new dungeons, and on release the end game really wasn't all that there. There was also ultimately content that was cut off to meet deadlines, features that were cut off for reasons (such as flying), and the new features are ok at best, but becomes a mess when it's integral to progression (Garrisons). Of course the developers giving condensending answers to the players rather than admitting their mistakes ("We cut XYZ because story reasons that you don't understand (and this doesn't even make sense lore-wise, mind you), versus "we scrapped it because we ran out of time")
If I had to vouch one thing that 3.0 did well (that isn't story and OST, because I feel that this is a given for a FF title), is how some of the jobs evolve compared to their 2.0 counterparts. NIN and BRD though imo fail spectactularly at this regard, and even MCH feels shafted in what they initially had visioned versus what we actually got. But even that only lasts for so long because it's going to be there for the entirity of 3.0 (excluding major job balancing like they did with DRG and WAR), and the current circumstances of the content we have now. -
12-21-2015, 02:22 AMAlahraThat's totally fair. I'm not burnt out on the game really, but I know the Alexander grind *would* burn me out, so I'm choosing to avoid it as well. I've gotten my fill of the newer content for the most part, and I suppose the nostalgic part of me misses the old world (but I'm a very sentimental sort, both when it comes to people and MMOs--I've permanently resubscribed to FFXI too because of the Maiden's Rhapsody quests here >.>).Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I would say it's likely that the next stage will involve more HW content--in part because of the feedback on the forums. A lot of it is being presented in a thoughtful way amid the sea of metaphorical salt and they've generally responded to things in the relic line at least somewhat well (though by no means perfectly).
Mhm, I've seen you mention this and I rather agree. I'm interested in a number of jobs I didn't have much care for in 2.x because of how they've grown. NIN is still my main, but...there is one notable change to my gameplay (Armor Crush) versus level 50, and it's...honestly pretty minor. BRD feels rather different to me though, to the point where, while it was my 3rd Zeta in ARR, I will never touch it at 60 again unless they completely scrap Wanderer's Minuet--but in that sense, it didn't grow, you're right...BRD feels like it *regressed.*Quote:
If I had to vouch one thing that 3.0 did well (that isn't story and OST, because I feel that this is a given for a FF title), is how some of the jobs evolve compared to their 2.0 counterparts. NIN and BRD though imo fail spectactularly at this regard.
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12-21-2015, 03:53 AMkog985Oh i love this post so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonanja
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12-21-2015, 05:14 AMRiceisNiceWanderer's Minuet (cast times) by itself isn't a problem, but its that its taking away the frantic (and almost ecstatic) gameplay of a BRD having to be punctual or double weaving Bl/RoD during AoEs. It feels like a pace breaker from a job that focused on "lot of hits at low damage", which is the usual gameplay archetype you'd see from bow users. Taking away auto attacks (or really, giving WM/GB) from both MCH and BRD just seems unnecessary from that front as well, semantics aside they function as faux casters at this point rather than a true physical dps class. I also don't want to go too detailed into MCH, but seeing what they did with DRK, AST and even NIN (which came during a 2.x patch mind you rather than an expansion, so SE themselves have set a standard), MCH ultimately feels like a reskinned BRD 2.0 when it comes down to the basic gameplay. You have the wildfire bursts and that's...about it. Ammo and all of that essentially becomes things you use on oGCD to proc your combos for instant shots (which ironically defeat the purpose of GB's restriction in the first place)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
This, along with the content, just screams lack of playtesting, and pushing to meet deadlines at the cost of quality. The principle applies to customer satisfaction in general; people will wait for good product. People won't come back if they're receiving something that's clearly been halfassed or otherwise feels no thoguht has been put into it..espesically if it's been delayed again and again (directly referring to relic). -
12-21-2015, 05:22 AMIlitsaWhy do we have to justify our enjoyment to you? Also what says I'm not ingame working on it while lurking around the forums too, my computer screen has the forum up while my TV has the game up, I know, a console player that also owns a computer, it's hard to comprehend, aint it? <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonanja
in all seriousness, my facetious comment aside, both sides of the argument need to be way less judgmental of each other, some like it, some don't both sides are equally valid, stop trying to invalidate each other, it only hurts the community more. -
12-21-2015, 05:37 AMRanzan
Because there is nothing really thought provoking about a recycled grind that people never wanted in the past. And that they didn't realise the reward is nothing more but glamour at best. Well we call say all gear in this game is for glamour. (vertical progression) tome weapons are more practical then these and if your a pro raider the raid weapon us the better option to. So the only defence is that cause the reward does justify the grind.
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12-21-2015, 05:41 AMBlood-AkiWere you here before this relic? They will usually keep the quests updated to meet the ilvl meta everytime, the 210 relic isn't the only thing you will keep forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranzan
The problem is SE likes to use FATES because they have no other use outside of leveling, and they throw every story dungeon in there as well, (except Great gubal) so they are at the same time trying to make it easier for newbies. i see WHAT they are doing..it's just vets don't like it since it's to close to old relic. So you can probably expect next stage to need materia again...i HOPE not. but just be ready for it. -
12-21-2015, 05:59 AMsilentwindfrdear sir i beg to differe, until the second step and the last step of the previous relic (zenith, was changed after, and zeta) was on par with raid, but outside this step, the relic weapon was always 5ilevel behind because.... it kill the incentive reason of the raider if people that don't raid can earn.... 1 item on par of with what they can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood-Aki
that too why we didn't get it sooner, if we had it added at the same time than savage, people will have far less complain than now. -
12-21-2015, 06:24 AMRanzanI actually have 2 zeta so yes I was here for the first one. Also that doesn't justify this horrid system and timing of it implications at all. Also silent above this post is right the old relic alway lagged behind the raid tiers. That's why the tome or primal weapons are the most efficient weapon's to get cause the relic upgrade timing from the past dictate these weapons are not getting next tier lvl (near or equally next Alex lvl) 3.35 just like now that a half a patch till it's weak again. So yea it's something to do for a glamour item.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood-Aki
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12-21-2015, 06:55 AMBlood-AkiQuote:
Originally Posted by Ranzan
Only for some jobs, SCH for example is best they can get as it's the only weapon with crit on it for them. they ususally keep the relics at the same ilvl as the best raid tier weapons, they won't make them higher otherwise the raids would be useless for the most part, at least the weapons. but for jobs like blm relics are actually a downgrade. -
12-21-2015, 07:05 AMAlahraIn ARR, this was only true for raiders that could reliably get the token item previously necessary to get the tomestone weapon, though. Non-raiders had access to their weapon around the time the Unidentified/Encrypted Tomestones were made available outside of the corresponding raid battles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranzan
With that requirement apparently now waved, this could be true in 3.2, but we honestly don't know. It's entirely possible that with weapons being more readily available now than they were in the past, they may release relic stages sooner than they used to. It's also possible that we'll see the requirement for a raid drop for the tomestone weapon reinstated, too--they may have not put one on the Esoterics weapons because of the delay in the release of the Anima questline, for all we know. -
12-21-2015, 11:27 AMWinterLunaI didn't realise I was cowering in fear at new content and was against it, but hey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashred
My argument for why I enjoy it now although the content was already there? I like those dungeons, I like Alexander, I like farming, I like grinding. My queues for these are popping wonderfully now! So much life has been brought back into the content I like. Again, is that a problem, or am I not allowed to enjoy old content purely because I've done the before?
Also, you realise even adding something new to the relic would get just as old and tedious as you're making the current one out to be? Everything has a shelf life.