Savage Alexander and the Paladin Exodus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

They should have just made Titan: Ultimate Extremely Hard Mode if they wanted to give us a reallllll challenge. LANDSLIDES ALL AROUND!

---

More like LAG fest all around!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I guess that's why we've seen so many Paladins clear A4S.

---

The playerbase collectively has to decide what they want:
No homogenization
Bring the player, not the class


Right now it's bring the class. Level the job that has the critical skill\mitigation\dps we want or you are getting benched. However, if they change that so that all tanks are viable in all content and you level the job that has the playstyle you like, people get upset that things are just too homogenized.

There's a lot of design choices that could be changed, but they are in a spot right now that I wouldn't want to be in as a designer. The playerbase is going to crucify them no matter what they do, especially since paladin enjoyed the top of the pile in so much content in vanilla and the game has reached a point where DPS is king over all else.

Folks are only just now starting to beat AS4. Right now, beating that requires bleeding-edge performance by all participants; anything that can squeeze out another drop of damage is used. We've seen stuff like that before, with book-thumping SCHs and SMNs auto-attacking for the few scraps of additional damage they contribute. Now that it's been beaten, though, time, practice, and additional gear drops will ease these strict requirements, and jobs (PLD in this case) that were out of favor will start returning to the fight.

Alexander was DRK's chance to shine, which makes sense since this expansion added DRK to the mix. Now, if all future envelope-pushing content in the future continues to favor DRK over PLD, we might have an issue, but I think it's fair to have an event or two where PLD is not the darling.

As long as there's variance of any kind between jobs, you're going to see this kind of favoritism emerge whenever any content pushes the envelope of what players can accomplish. The only way to ensure that all jobs are equally powerful in all situations is to make them all exactly the same.

This is exactly the problem I posed in the OP. Want to be successful in end-game content later than everyone else? Play Paladin.

It's not an issue with homogenization. It's not homogenized for all the tanks to deal roughly the same DPS because they deal that damage in different ways. It's only homogenized to the people that view a job as nothing more than numbers.

And, DRK has their own issues. Quite frankly, NO ONE should be happy to see them masked over in a way that shafts another class and the actual human beings who like playing that class.

It's not about PLDs, DRKs, or WARs. Too often are those terms used to dehumanize the issue. It's about actual real people who are just trying to enjoy the content. It's about real people who are being forced away from something they like in a game they play for enjoyment. That is the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Alexander was DRK's chance to shine, which makes sense since this expansion added DRK to the mix. Now, if all future envelope-pushing content in the future continues to favor DRK over PLD, we might have an issue, but I think it's fair to have an event or two where PLD is not the darling.

---

Except if the trend is kept up, they won't be ever until late in the party. That's not a good model.

Quote:

---

As long as there's variance of any kind between jobs, you're going to see this kind of favoritism emerge whenever any content pushes the envelope of what players can accomplish. The only way to ensure that all jobs are equally powerful in all situations is to make them all exactly the same.

---

Yeeep, that's definitely not something a game designer would say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

This is exactly the problem I posed in the OP. Want to be successful in THIS end-game content later than everyone else? Play Paladin.

---

Edited for accuracy. As for Arashmin's comment, WHAT trend? Near as I can tell, this is the very first time PLD hasn't been the absolute darling tank in endgame. A single anomaly in PLD's unbroken record. Then along comes Savage 4 with all its crazy magic damage and punishing DPS checks, and suddenly PLDs are moaning about the end of days.

PLD will be in third place for, what, a half a year at most? Then the second phase of Alexander pops up, Savage 4 becomes yesterday's news, and Paladins take the fore again because Floor 8 is less a DPS check and more a physical endurance check; it is simply too punishing to the tank to leave the main tanking role in the hands of a DRK or WAR. At least, until that, too, gets overgeared, and all the neglected DRKs (who have started moaning about the end of days due to their second-rate physical defenses) start to trickle back in.

There are three tanks. There are two tank slots. One tank will ALWAYS be left in the cold, even if the difference in numbers between them can be measured in two digits, because that's just how optimizers (the folks most likely to get World's First clears, and the folks that later folks mimic when they try for their own first clears) think - they DO view jobs as nothing more than numbers. As long as SE makes sure each new endgame addition "favors" each tank in turn, that's the best we can ask for.

I'd rather make small adjustments to one job rather than bank on the combat team to fundamentally change game design.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it until the Aurochs come home: Assessing a job based on endgame content meant for i200 when most people are only now just reaching i190~i195 is a dodgy assessment at best and completely malicious at worst. If a group is relying on tank DPS to pull them through content, that content is being engaged MUCH too early.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

I've said it before and I'll repeat it until the Aurochs come home: Assessing a job based on endgame content meant for i200 when most people are only now just reaching i190~i195 is a dodgy assessment at best and completely malicious at worst. If a group is relying on tank DPS to pull them through content, that content is being engaged MUCH too early.

---

Yeah man, 2.0 WARs should've just waited till they were i90 before attempting BcoB instead of getting a buff right? Gear fixes everything right? It's not as if the better jobs aren't getting the same benefits from better gear right? Lol.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...the_design_of/

Here's a good post about the real issue, it's not that the PLD is too weak, it' that Savage Gordias was catered for DRK and how badly DRK was designed.

Quote:

---

Looking at Alexander, let's ask ourselves this: if more of the magic damage was shifted to be physical, would there be any easier of a time clearing these harder floors? The answer is no. While PLD would have the survivability they'd lack the damage. On the same note, while DRK would have the damage, they'd lack the survivability. In fact I think that we would see even fewer groups that have cleared A3s and I don't think A4S would have been cleared at all if that were the case. The reason is because the DPS checks are so obnoxious that even doing mechanics correctly is not enough to deserve a clear in the eyes of SE. While I think it's okay to have an enrage timer, I do not think it is okay to have them as tight as they are on EVERY SINGLE FLOOR. It would be fine if there was a tight check on one floor (kind of like Patchwerk from WoW's Naxx), just to make sure you can do it. In fact I thought that's what Faust was supposed to be. I don't think PLD is bad, I think SE made a poor design choice by making an entire raid that catered to the flawed kit of DRK which in turn created the illusion that PLD was somehow awful.


Ask yourselves this, if PLD did receive buffs but SE continued to make the rest of the floors like A3S and A4s would it change anything? Personally, I don't think so. What if they made it so that everything was mostly physical again and lowered the tight dps checks while placing more of an emphasis on mechanics? Then we'd have the same issue we do now, only the shoe would be on the other foot.

---

Ofc it also doesn't help that PLD and DRK are forced to compete together because thanks to the ridiculous DPS checks, WAR blows both of them out of the water by being an absolute must-have.

Paladin is too weak though. How effectively a job performs is relative to the content. Make all damage 100% blockable and you still need Dark Knight to pass DPS checks. Paladins aren't being benched due to mitigation, though it is just insult to injury.

That reddit point was already addressed in the comments.

You know what would happen if content shifted back to being primarily physical? Every progression team would just bring 2 WARs. Their raid DPS advantage over PLDs more than makes up for the LB penalty. You would need to cater very specifically to PLDs in order for them to return to content. Why? Because they are in a terrible state regardless of the meta.

Also, it's not fair to ask MTs to gear and learn 2 classes just because the raid meta is shifting back and forth. Especially when you gear gate behind job specific tome gear. Wouldn't it make more sense to balance classes so they can complete content regardless of the raid meta? How is it acceptable that for 6 months at a time an entire class and its player base is just asked to take a break from end-game?

Only real problem is Paladin's non existent aoe and it costing a gcd to switch stances.

War - overpower 120 potency (cone aoe)
drk - unleash 100 potency (aoe around dk)

I would give the enhanced flash trait also does 80 potency damage because the trait currently adds blind pretty much does nothing endgame wise due to how like everything in a raid resists blind. 80 lower then dark because paladin still has circle of scorn. Otherwise the class is fine.

Sucks to be a paladin in A2S because you are flashing all those goblins to get hate while doing no damage while a war and dark are damaging them with their aoe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

Only real problem is Paladin's non existent aoe and it costing a gcd to switch stances.

War - overpower 120 potency (cone aoe)
drk - unleash 100 potency (aoe around dk)

I would give the enhanced flash trait also does 80 potency damage because the trait currently adds blind pretty much does nothing endgame wise due to how like everything in a raid resists blind. 80 lower then dark because paladin still has circle of scorn. Otherwise the class is fine.

Sucks to be a paladin in A2S because you are flashing all those goblins to get hate while doing no damage while a war and dark are damaging them with their aoe.

---

Hate to be that guy, but DRK usually use abyssal drain (120 pot), also i'm glad i jumped ship after the 3rd week and didn't waste more eso on PLD.

Thank you Kyne for sticking with it to give us the hard proof that the class is in dire straits.

Here's a fix - add a 5% dmg taken debuff for 30 seconds on Circle of Scorn or Flash. If the PLD isn't going to be doing any DPS, he can at least give everyone else more DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I guess that's why we've seen so many Paladins clear A4S.

---

Viable does not necessarily mean "capable doing the content with less than the expected ilvl", it just means "capable of doing the contetnt at the expected ilvl" (quite a difference there). And with that said, I think the "expected ilvl" for A4S is likely about i205.

Note: I still think PLD needs some sort of buff.

--Erim Nelhah

Nearing 19 pages, still waiting on word from upstairs. Still 0 Paladin clears.

A JP Group with a Paladin has the fight at 1% as of last night. Something to note after checking some of these players on Lodestone is that pretty much everybody is wearing full i210 save for some melded accessories on the tanks and of course, i200 weapons. Is this getting clearer to everyone that gear doesn't fix Paladin's terrible design? Do people now understand why I made the switch to Dark Knight, and why pretty much every Paladin at end-game has done the same? If that Paladin had been an equally geared Dark Knight, they would have already beaten this fight. When you're decked in the best possible gear in the game, beating this fight as Paladin is still playing the game on Extreme Challenge mode. Why?

I still don't understand why SE doesn't respond in any way to this kind of thread. I guess it's because it's a catch 22 for them cause acknowledging that paladin is underpowered is acknowledging failure and bad raid design. On the other hand, if they think paladins are in a good spot. It's clearly not true. SO they choose to let this question unanswered and try to get away with the issue.

I know SE reads forums and feedback, they MUST be aware of this topic. Just very curious why they haven't commented on this yet. (maybe the outcry for astro buff was on a bigger part of the population and decided to deal with it asap and since not many paladin are on A4S, it's not worth commenting on it????? )

I really don't know

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

A JP Group with a PLD has the fight at 1% as of last night.?

---

They handle the mechanics horribly, sacrificing the PLD instead of sharing the ball, then the WAR is forced to Holmgang in Defiance (don't know why he's in Defiance if he's Holmganging anyway, all his CDs should be available), then the DRG and SCH die to Perpetual Ray. He had Sentinel available for the incoming Ray or they could've tank swapped and had the WAR blow all his CDs + double IB + Equilibrium + SW to heal through it without needing much outside healing due to the low healer mana. On top of that, he had Holmgang, which could've saved him if the healing + mitigation didn't work out. Another option would've been to tank swap for the one before this, have the PLD sacrifice himself, then tank swap back to the PLD to allow him to HG for the last Ray + have Sentinel available if needed. There were so many options and all would've resulted in a kill, unfortunately they panicked and lost.

PLD needs some buffs/tweaks, but this isn't proof that PLD "can't do Savage Alex" - they're literally completely fine for this floor. The problem was, and remains to be, that DRK can output higher DPS while mitigating more magic damage at lower gear levels. This, in turn, made DRK/WAR and WAR/WAR more viable for progression by default and left PLD in the dust. Even if content where physical mitigation is more important, if it still results in lower DPS than DRK/WAR then people are still going to bring DRK/WAR (or WAR/WAR). There is a DPS disparity, but it is not so severe that PLD can't do the floors DRK can do with a few ilvl upgrades. Maybe this is why SE isn't responding - because people are blowing it completely out of proportion and SE is wise enough to know what actually needs to be done. I'm not one to put much faith in SE, but I'd trust their team before I trusted forum posters who try to pretend that PLD can't do A4S @ i210. That's insanity.

It's fairly easy to criticize them from where you're sitting, maybe you should help them learn how to beat the fight.

lmao I'm not criticizing. I said they panicked, and it domino'd into a situation where they wiped. 1% wipes happen all the time in progression, this was probably their first time getting this far and they didn't plan ahead. Now they know that this situation can happen, so they'll plan for it next time.

On a side note, cool to see an A4S group w/ an AST.

They've been sub 10% multiple times. I've been following this group extremely closely.

Clear with paladin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKsS14fBZw

Fresh from this morning, I missed this, thanks!

So what can we take away from this, now that a single Paladin on the planet earth has beaten the fight? There's been one fundamental problem, and it's been the single uniting theme in the entire thread across all posters, no matter what side of the issue you're on:

Paladins simply have to wait longer to beat content because they can't bring enough DPS to fights to clear them on a normal timetable. Only now at the end of gear progression, with groups stacked in full i210 are we starting to see Paladin clears. Was this how the content was tested and balanced for Paladin?

Seems to me they need the mobs to hit harder and make more content around requiring massive coordination between heals, defensive tanking and less DPS enrage checks. IE none of this nonsense where the healers need to help DPS, make the check be about how quickly you can heal and/or tank massive crushing attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The problem was, and remains to be, that DRK can output higher DPS while mitigating more magic damage at lower gear levels. This, in turn, made DRK/WAR and WAR/WAR more viable for progression by default and left PLD in the dust. Even if content where physical mitigation is more important, if it still results in lower DPS than DRK/WAR then people are still going to bring DRK/WAR (or WAR/WAR).

---

If they'd stop making them pure DPS checks, then maybe we'd have a better shot at it.

As it stands, doesn't matter if PLD has better defense. When the goal is "kill it before enrage" you're going to take whomever has the highest DPS.

They had an item level expectation before successful completion. They should have delayed release until a fair number of players actually *had* that level of gear and then maybe you'd have a fair assessment. If not everyone can perform equally RIGHT AT RELEASE OF THE CONTENT, there is a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

Seems to me they need the mobs to hit harder and make more content around requiring massive coordination between heals, defensive tanking and less DPS enrage checks. IE none of this nonsense where the healers need to help DPS, make the check be about how quickly you can heal and/or tank massive crushing attacks.

---

Tenacity/attrition checks.

Making their mitigation more valuable by the fight dragging on longer. Your "enrage" is "healers are out of MP".

That's how most fights worked for the longest time in EQ2. Tanks wanted to take less damage, DPS didn't want to take any damage, and healers had to manage power. Healers out of power = wiped.

So I'm watching that video and I gotta ask..

What's killing their MP? Monk and Ninja specifically.

I'm not aware of anything they have that costs MP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadirah

So I'm watching that video and I gotta ask..

What's killing their MP? Monk and Ninja specifically.

I'm not aware of anything they have that costs MP?

---

Failure to successfully complete one of the mechanics drains everyone's MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Failure to successfully complete one of the mechanics drains everyone's MP.

---

Well that kinda sucks. Ew.

Well in this strategy they don't always kill the doll, they let it Whirbelwind to put more DPS on the boss.

Live Letter come and gone, still zero news on Paladin. I was hoping we'd at least receive a timetable on when to expect job adjustments. Does this mean the developers think the job is working as intended?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Live Letter come and gone, still zero news on Paladin. I was hoping we'd at least receive a timetable on when to expect job adjustments. Does this mean the developers think the job is working as intended?

---

The live letter was on stage at TGS, so I think they wanted to show off flashy new features rather than balance stuff for the most part. I didn't watch all of it, though, so I could be mistaken. Wait for the next FATE maybe?

it takes too long for the community team to pass on information to the devs, translate it both ways, and post a response. about the only thing that receives fast responses around here is when you report a tooltip typo or misspelling, those are things the NA team is equipped to handle on their own in a timely manner.

so don't draw any conclusions from lack of response.

Finally, somewhat of a response:

http://ff14net.2chblog.jp/archives/46326984.html

Per Yoshi-P, "I don't think PLD is weak".
- PLD will continue to be the best defensive tank.
- There will be adjustments to its skills in 3.1.
- Magic will never be able to be blocked.
- There will be more physical attacks in raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Finally, somewhat of a response:

http://ff14net.2chblog.jp/archives/46326984.html

Per Yoshi-P, "I don't think PLD is weak".
- PLD will continue to be the best defensive tank.
- There will be adjustments to its skills in 3.1.
- Magic will never be able to be blocked.
- There will be more physical attacks in raids.

---

http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/blo...her-gang-3.gif

I think you have to actually be the best defensive tank in order to continue to be the best defensive tank. For what it's worth, YoshiP also said Warrior was strong in 2.0. He's overseeing the whole project, so the finer points of balance might elude him sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

I think you have to actually be the best defensive tank in order to continue to be the best defensive tank.

---

I've had a suspicion for awhile that the developers don't realize how strong WAR's defensive kit is--in fact, I don't think a lot of the playerbase does, either.

Please look forward to 3.1 when Paladins still do the least DPS of any tank class, and can't clear the content without literally months of extra gear.