Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

DF and PF are the realm of less experienced players. DF specially, but PF too. On DF you're BOUND to find non-experienced players. on PF you're bound to find people lying about their experience in order to get in the group, because it's the only way they are even going to have a shot, ALL groups are "farm" or "experienced players only". EVERY. LAST. ONE. OF. THEM.

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There's a bit of an assumption there, Since DF and PF trends are different on a data center/ server basis. I know from my JP data center times that DF is meant for people that don't have the time to get a full party set up but still want a clear on the content they want to do, where PF is more for the learning parties since you'll be willing to put more time into it. And if you can vouch that every group in your specific PF is "farm" or "exp players only" with no exceptions I recommend a server transfer.

lmao how do you call yourself an elitist without any dreadwyrm gear or a wind-up louisoix

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Originally Posted by Mavka

And if you can vouch that every group in your specific PF is "farm" or "exp players only" with no exceptions I recommend a server transfer.

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Most servers are that way though. You either pay for a win and learn nothing, or try and sneak into a farm party. Getting 7 people willing to waste their time helping one noob just doesn't happen. At least not without a 20 mil pricetag.

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Originally Posted by ilmynasa

Sorry, was bit vague on that I guess. Some of my static members join teaching parties in a FC to help those who want the clear. But there are many people who goes in there, and expect to for a carry. We don't help those people.

I guess I'll give a specific example. 3 of my static is helping with a T13 clear. I was on my smn main dpsing. Our clear was right after the last akh morn, just as enrage gigaflare is casting. One melee is parsing below 350 for almost every pull, with echo, even after he got the weapon. And I think one of my static member already went to him regarding his rotation.

Us willing to help does not equal to people willing to listen. And not all sellers treat others as potential customers.

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I suppose that's fair and I may have jumped on your comment too quick. I don't have a very optimistic view of run-sellers for the most part solely because I hate getting into farm parties where halfway through the first run it becomes painfully obvious that someone bought their original clear. But, to each their own and actually helping others learn and improve isn't a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Funny thing is it's always the TANKS who are lacking. I figure most of them finda parties easier and already got their clears, so why bother.

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Here's an opportunity for me to get back to the main topic.

While I certainly can't speak for everyone, what I have noticed is that many of the "tanks" in PUG's these days don't main as Tanks. A lot of us who do main tanks have become rather burned out by how the community treats us. Many are tired of always being forced to speed run, or other players not bothering to work together, or just outright blaming us for their screw-ups. We all screw-up. but slinging blame doesn't help.

Anywho, older veteran tanks eventually just get tired of it and don't PUG as tanks anymore. To fill the void, many DPS'ers and Healers level up a tank job and come in with their preconceived notion of how tanks should be. (many of which leave us with the bad tank stereotypes). I, for one, find it really hard to pick up my axe for someone I don't know unless I see their need is great.

That being said, if I was on your server, knowing now how much you would need a clear, I'd probably help. All I can do from Leviathan server, though, is wish you the best of luck.

I am not an "elitist", just a tired veteran.

Love Hyperion. We're all elitists there, because we know we won't hold other players back in any content whatsoever. And we'll will always be an elitist, failure is not an acceptable norm. We learn, we adapt, we grow. Stagnation and helplessness is not conducive to a productive server.

I think a distinction should be made between "elite players" and people with "elitist" mentality. The former are quality players, contribute to the community, have cleared some of the hardest content like Final and Savage coil, and are generally revered by their peers.

The latter are a group of people "self defined" per their own definition and really are generally just toxic, think they are better than they are, unwilling to help and so on. These people are were the pejorative term of elitism is held. A truly Elite player is in the top tier of the community. If you haven't cleared the hardest content in the game you aren't "elite" by any objective standard and I wouldn't consider myself Elite in the slightest. Clearing EX primals doesn't make you elite. Likewise self proclamations of being elite are baseless. Facts require proof and evidence. Now don't get it wrong, I'm not saying if you haven't cleared final or savage coil you are a bad player. I am saying that if you haven't cleared these things you are hardly "elite" by any real standard regardless of what you may claim or think.

When we talk about the most "elite" QB in the NFL, the ones without superbowl rings will be removed from the equation fairly quickly. It's because elite has a definition and the title means you are one of the few of the best at doing what you do. Does that mean the others were bad? absolutely not. They just weren't elite. Likewise if you don't have a final or savage coil clear you are hardly elite because again, this word has a definition and if you are so elite you have the proof to back it.

The point being is that the "elitist" declaration isn't reserved for good players, it's reserved for players who aren't as good as they think they are which seems to be a large amount. They somehow feel entitled to the least amount of effort clearing content, the least amount of wipes and so on. The simple reality is that if you haven't cleared the hardest top tier content you aren't "elite" anymore than some joe throwing around a football in his backyard claiming to be an elite quarterback.

OP have my likes.

This whole elitest junk is just semantics. To be elite is a state of being. It is to BE a land owning nobleman. It is to BE a rich person with truckloads if money. It is to BE highly skilled at basketball/fencing/archery/ffxiv/insert skill here.

The Internet has just been co-opting the term to mean a$$hole.

To be highly skilled at ffxiv encounters is to be in an elite class of players. To be an unbridled #&$!*# to everyone is an attitude, not a state if being.

Eliteness is a state. Being good at something at a given time is just a binary true false state. You are great (right now) at titan or you arent.

Being a prick is an attitude and has no bearing on your abilities.

Separate issues the Internet is converging into a single word. It's just silly. Terrible players can be dicks too, but they do it while causing wipes.

e·lite
əˈlēt,āˈlēt/
noun
noun: elite; plural noun: elites

1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Your server must be some kind of utopian paradise, then. Me and a bunch of other people already told about a much harsher reality in this topic. Please tell us where that magical realm where T5 and T9 parties actually happens is. We only heard it in legends.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

...Me and a bunch of other people...

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

...a bunch of other people...

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if a bunch of people need it, and the forums is just a small sample size (likely skewed towards people who play the game a lot and thus desire to visit the forums), then there are likely a bunch of people on your server that need it too. Figure out how to find them.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

e·lite
əˈlēt,āˈlēt/
noun
noun: elite; plural noun: elites

1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

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This guy gets it!

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

snip

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If we're playing the dictionary game I love citing this one:

connotation
[kon-uh-tey-shuh n]
noun
1.
the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of “home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”.
the act of connoting; the suggesting of an additional meaning for a word or expression, apart from its explicit meaning.
2.
something suggested or implied by a word or thing, rather than being explicitly named or described:
3.
Logic. the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied; comprehension; intension.

E:

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Originally Posted by ClystielCarvalho

Well, First the person that wrote this is no an Elitist, He THINKS that he is one Elitist! and that's even WORST..... I went to lodstone and check
His Character.... hmmm, tried to check his achievements.... couldn't!, then i checked his Pets.... no Louisoix at this point? Well, and then and
Found out... he is the FC Leader, yeah.... and the FC Slogan is :
We're a Casual/Social FC w/ a large house in the Goblet. We do all content and nobody gets left out. PST for an invite! Sorry and Elistis will
never write a slogan like that! SO, as i said before He thinks that is something......

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Don't forget the skill speed melds :P

It's like that on Leviathan. Come on over. But with the type of attitude you are showing I'm not sure it's the server that is the issue.

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

A lot of us who do main tanks have become rather burned out by how the community treats us.

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You know, that's a funny thing. I main as WHM, but recently I leveled up a PLD so I could help my MNK girlfriend to level. I play this game since beta, and I've always felt in my skin the hashness of jerkish assholery tanks always throws at almost every party I've been in. SO I decided I'd be a nice guy and spread the love with my brand new shining shield. All was well until I got to lvl 50, and then all the shitstorm began.

I entered my first WP saying "Hello! you guys are lucky, you got a nice tank! :D I even brough cookies :3". This was met with a "just pull plz". I started marking mobs and pulling, the healer would just run ahead and bring like 5-6 enemies to me. This happened for half the way up to the first boss, then I just said "OK healz, next time you do that I'm not gonna pull mobs from you. Stop doing that please" the answer? "then pull faster". I admit I got pretty angry with that reply and got back at him with "you don't get to set the pace of the run, I do. Now stand back or die. Or leave and suck on your 30 mins timeout." The rest of the run was smooth, tho my GF almost quit the game over it and the assholery we'd have to put up with the next 2348723409230947 runs. And god forbid I forget shield oath, people would even leave after 1st pull.

It was really mindbending to be on the other side and knowing ppl can be just as jerkish WITH Tanks as tanks can be to the rest of the party. Funny.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

snippity

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You really don't sound like as much of a victim in that story as you seem to think...

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Originally Posted by Dement

I wouldn't have tried to argue with you either but if you're going to continue a tirade, why not? You're right, right now isn't always available. Sure your learning party may not fill up but you can meet people while you wait. Talk about the fight, learn from one another and friend each other while you wait for others. If they have to go then the next time you're setting up a learning party, you can look for them. The reason these things rarely get off the ground is because no one wants to join a 1/8 party and sit on their hands when other possibilities may arise. If you can start that same learning party with 5/8 people, it has a much higher chance of filling. Is it actual fight experience? No. Is it a step in the process, sure it can be.

Are you joining DF groups? Yes you're going to meet people who are jerks but so what, they don't really owe you anything and words on the internet aren't going to kill you. Are you going to meet people who are worse than you and stymie your progress? Absolutely but if you bitch about them doesn't that make you something of a hypocrite? Are you studying videos and trying to learn the ins and outs of the fight while you wait or are you sitting on your hands getting upset? If you know what to expect when you enter, then all that matters is execution. You just need to see the whole fight once or twice to set up a clear party which has a better chance of filling with experienced people.

Finally, I find it quite ironic that in the forum where elitists/raiders have this stigma of being mean-spirited, spiteful people towards others. Your posts seem to spout unmatched vitriol.

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The fact you responded this way just reinforced my point. Where in my argument was I complaining about my progress; getting clears or not getting clears. I myself and in a FCoB Bahamut Static with my FC myself. This was never about ME. My problem with the OP, is that she makes posts that are easy to bandwagon on. It doesn't matter if she's right or it's wrong, she sinks to the lowest common denominator and makes this post to get rise out of people, not actually say anything to be constructive. The OP has no point. She addressed an obvious problem but doesn't see that to fix said problem you might create two more problems in the process. A MMO is a WORLD, and all worlds or complex organisms that have multiple things going on with it at any one time. It's easy to say "these people are starving", "stealing is wrong", "war causes misery and violence", "drugs are bad", "we need to fix the environment". The world is a giant rubix cube, trying to "fix" one side will adversely effect the other sides. Loads and loads of people since time immemorial have taken to "street preaching"; whether its a soapbox, a talk show, or radio broadcast, to use emotional appeal to sway others. The OP is a "casual gamer" who just wants attention as a guise of an elitist player and go "look at me daddy got me a pony, aren't I'm special?"

The ponies are a stupid award for these fights, but that's an argument for another thread.

The kind of elitist the OP actually is.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

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Let your girlfriend know that for every one of those, there are a few people (I like to believe that I'm one of them) that are tolerant and willing to put up with new people, even if the dungeon goes slower, assuming they're still performing their role and are open to advice and such. Don't let the jerks get under your/her skin.

But I will say this: while lashing back at the healer dealt with the situation that time, it's not a good idea to respond in that manner. The golden rule, eye for an eye, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

e·lite
əˈlēt,āˈlēt/
noun
noun: elite; plural noun: elites

1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

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There's a difference between 'elite' and 'elitist' though. >.>

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

rage

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You sound really really salty....I suggest logging off and enjoying the weather outside or do something relaxing.

It's really quite poetic: the only thing as whiny as a wanna-be raider is an actual raider.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

There's a difference between 'elite' and 'elitist' though. >.>

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That's exactly the point he was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

There's a difference between 'elite' and 'elitist' though. >.>

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Oh I agree. That's why I explained it in the other post. The actual "elite" people I know in the game are some of the nicest and most helpful people I've met. It's usually the people who think they are better than they are and that they deserve something for thinking so highly of themselves that are the issue. I guess what I am saying is that the "elite" players aren't really the ones who display the pejorative "elitist" mentality.

Reading this thread is very useful for someone studying social dynamics in MMOs

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Originally Posted by Metaflare

Reading this thread is very useful for someone studying social dynamics in MMOs

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http://2damnfunny.com/hayley-smith-t...-american-dad/

The biggest issue Ive run into is DPS complaints. The only time I get complaints is on expert content such as Keeper of the Lake. I'm currently 104 and the group of mostly ilvl 130's have taken issue with my DPS (which to be fair, I am way under geared compared to the masses, but I meet the qualifications for the instance. (Mind you we didn't 't wipe at all and finished pretty quick, they were just mad that I was performing poorly on speed pulls)

TL:DR -- I agree with the core concept of the post, but I feel elitism causes problems more with people trying to "break" into more current content from being casuals. Thus discouraging more players from breaking into the path to becoming better (the players I mentioned that criticized my DPS offered no guidance and didn't kick me)

Nice post, not /s.

Leads to the question though - what's the big deal? Why do people let other people's attitudes get under their skin?

Do your best to not play like a retard or hold the party back, find others with the same mentality... profit?

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Originally Posted by Dungin

The biggest issue Ive run into is DPS complaints. The only time I get complaints is on expert content such as Keeper of the Lake. I'm currently 104 and the group of mostly ilvl 130's have taken issue with my DPS

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If they do that, ask them to cite your specific DPS in chat.

Then open a report with a GM and have them get actioned for admitting to using a parser.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Oh I agree. Snip

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Yeah, I've met folks like that too, it is a shame the OP feels it needed to claim to be a snob to fight her strawmen. It shows that some folks like to pay that kind of "help" forward under the excuse of tough love.

I may not be the darling of fcob, but I've found questions and patience do more for me than "get gud" platitudes.

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Originally Posted by Nichrom

Nice post, not /s.

Leads to the question though - what's the big deal? Why do people let other people's attitudes get under their skin?

Do your best to not play like a retard or hold the party back, find others with the same mentality... profit?

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I'm pretty sure people dislike elitism because they're insecure about their skill.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

If they do that, ask them to cite your specific DPS in chat.

Then open a report with a GM and have them get actioned for admitting to using a parser.

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Yay another free pass for dps! If a tank or healer is undergeared or just bad, everyone sees hate flying around and people dying and they get reamed for it. But if you dare call out the poor dps they get a chance to ban you for it. Unrelated point to OP but sheesh I'm sick of dps getting a free pass on not sucking just because it's not as visible as tank/healer sucking.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Yay another free pass for dps! If a tank or healer is undergeared or just bad, everyone sees hate flying around and people dying and they get reamed for it. But if you dare call out the poor dps they get a chance to ban you for it. Unrelated point to OP but sheesh I'm sick of dps getting a free pass on not sucking just because it's not as visible as tank/healer sucking.

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Even with enmity-mitigating abilities such as Quelling Strikes and Elusive Jump, all I really need to know that a DPS is underperforming is the enmity bar. If the other DPS's aggro isn't even half of mine then there's a pretty obvious problem.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Yay another free pass for dps!

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Don't hate the player, hate the ToS.

If you're going to do everything in your power to be unpleasant, you should probably try to be smart enough to do it in a way that doesn't bring down the ban-hammer.

And let's not pretend that the privileges for being a tank or healer don't exist, and in copious amounts.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Don't hate the player, hate the ToS.

If you're going to do everything in your power to be unpleasant, you should probably try to be smart enough to do it in a way that doesn't bring down the ban-hammer.

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But still, do you really fell morally justified antagonizing someone just because they antagonized you fir-

Wait, this is the internet. You really probably do feel that way.

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Originally Posted by Reogrym

I'm pretty sure people dislike elitism because they're insecure about their skill.

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So they're afraid of their internet button pressing being judged by fellow internet button pressers?

Seems inconvenient.

To each their own, I guess.

Elitism has a negative inflection. When you think of an elitist, you think of someone who's arrogant because he/she was able to devote the time to perfect their skills and take on the hard bosses while lording it over everyone who hasn't.

When someone is good at this game, and tries to be genuinely helpful, they are just a good player. They don't lord their accomplishments over other and say, "gosh guys it was SO easy, i cant believe you can't do it". A good player would say "It gets easier as you get the hang of it, i'm sure you'll get it in time"

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

But still, do you really fell morally justified antagonizing someone just because they antagonized you fir-

Wait, this is the internet. You really probably do feel that way.

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I dunno about "morally justified", but it's pretty darn fun!

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

While I certainly can't speak for everyone, what I have noticed is that many of the "tanks" in PUG's these days don't main as Tanks. A lot of us who do main tanks have become rather burned out by how the community treats us. Many are tired of always being forced to speed run, or other players not bothering to work together, or just outright blaming us for their screw-ups. We all screw-up. but slinging blame doesn't help.

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Forced to speed run? Dear lord, why would you ever NOT want to speed run? Tanking dungeon trash pack by pack is quite possibly the most boring form of tanking in this game. In the extremely rare cases where I'm asked to pull more slowly, I've sometimes gone so far as to play a second game on my computer just to keep myself occupied.

Heaping mobs as far as you can safely go, gauging the ability of your healer and your DPS to keep pace - outside of Coil and a few Ex Primals, that's really the only time a tank really feels ALIVE.

I speed pull for my own enjoyment. That it benefits others is a pleasant bonus.

As for tanks being treated poorly, that's rarely been my personal experience, both as a tank and also as DPS or Healer in parties with other tanks. It saddens me that other tanks haven't been so fortunate. Actually, to be perfectly honest, my gaming experience in general hasn't been nearly as rife with toxicity as these forums seem to imply it should be; I think it's one of those cases where good news makes bad press: no one comes to the forums to whine about what a great run they just had. :p Sure, I've met some bad eggs in my time, but for the most part people is people, and people ain't bad.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Yay another free pass for dps! If a tank or healer is undergeared or just bad, everyone sees hate flying around and people dying and they get reamed for it. But if you dare call out the poor dps they get a chance to ban you for it. Unrelated point to OP but sheesh I'm sick of dps getting a free pass on not sucking just because it's not as visible as tank/healer sucking.

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I watch their animations, buffs, and monster debuffs. If I see a ninja not using huton, a black mage spamming blizzard II, a bard letting straight shot (and their DoTs for single target crap) fall off, I'll call them out for poor DPS.

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Originally Posted by Reogrym

I'm pretty sure people dislike elitism because they're insecure about their skill.

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This is correct - People who claim to dislike elitism are just using it as a subtext to avoid stating that what they really dislike is being evaluated by their fellow players.

Therefore, if you throw back your head and yell, "I hate elitists!" as loud as you can, wherever you can, and only associate with those who feel the same way as you do... Then you can create an environment where nothing is expected of you, and you are never evaluated or critiqued. Everyone is allowed to wallow in their mediocrity, and no one says anything even if you continuously fail because well, that would be an elitist thing to do.

The bigger issue here is that these kinds of people generally view any sort of evaluation of their playstyle as "wow, you're a terrible person, did you know that??" They are simply unable to take the feedback as it is. Unfortunately I don't think it is possible to fix an insecure person who is unwilling to ever see properly constructed and polite constructive feedback for what it is - a tool for bettering yourself.

This is why most of you in this position are probably still stuck on Turn 9 and most likely will be until we get another ilvl increase in 3.0, by the way.

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Originally Posted by ClystielCarvalho

Well, First the person that wrote this is no an Elitist, He THINKS that he is one Elitist! and that's the REAL ISSUE..... I went to lodstone and check
His Character.... hmmm, tried to check his achievements.... couldn't!, then i checked his Pets.... no Louisoix at this point? Well, and then and
Found out... he is the FC Leader, yeah.... and the FC Slogan is :
We're a Casual/Social FC w/ a large house in the Goblet. We do all content and nobody gets left out. PST for an invite! Sorry an Elistist will
never write a slogan like that! SO, as i said before He thinks that he is something......

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While what you wrote took a moment to understand, you missed the OP's point.

People were calling him an elitist. So he decided to more or less 'embrace' it. He doesn't really think he's 'elitist' ....but he also doesn't think MANY of the players being called such are actually elitist/behaving in such a way. His post was explaining how people get tired of constantly over-working on content to 'help' others only to have the very people they are trying to 'help' (stranger or otherwise), start name calling, or thinking that those who HAVE the experience are somehow in the wrong for not basically carrying the group or showing more patience than a saint.

Basically, it doesn't matter if you beat T13....if people know you've beaten Levi EX 100 times, they expect somehow that you, and you alone will be the sole reason they get their first clear. Or expect you to drop everything to 'help' them. Or start blaming you for not 'saving it' when the crap hits the fan and that happened because they drowned as soon as the ledges dropped. And many people who expect 'experienced in a specific battle' people to 'carry' them will then start using namecalling/shaming...specifically the word 'elitist' to basically shame them into helping.

Patience has it's limits.
Skill has it's limits.
We all play for fun.


I personally love to help people...but not ALWAYS....or at least not at their beck n call.
I don't mind teaching people at all...but that doesn't mean I'm willing to spend an entire Saturday afternoon 'helping' you if you aren't improving/listening/ or trying. If you are STILL dying to the same thing after repeated attempts, it should seem logical to let people leave to do other things while you take time to practice/study etc. We can try again another day when maybe you'll be less frustrated/better prepared.

on the flip side:
I don't like wasting other peoples time. If I feel like 'I'm the weak link' I'll leave/ask to be replaced.
I don't PF like ever. I just prefer learning the harder content with friends....this means I'll willingly let content pass me by and 'fall behind' rather than stay cutting edge. (I have been in 'progression raid groups' and I've been 'casual' right now I'm super-casual as real-life keeps me from even having enough comfort to do a full WoD run (I'm very very pregnant). )

So I don't have a T13 or even a T9 clear either...although to be fair, I also haven't even attempted T7. Why? Because it's not important to me right now/waiting to do it with friends. But I have been accused of being an 'elitist' for being like 'sorry guys, but don't think this is happening today' on a battle I DID have multiple clears on...but the party wasn't progressing at all/learning from their errors. I have been accused of being elitist for not dropping everything I was doing in-game right at that very moment to help a FC mate get a primal clear (to be clear they said /FC anyone want to do blah and I simply didn't answer...) And also, my FC at the time had scheduled times to 'help' people catch up on said battles/forum pages where you could sign up asking for help and this person decided to use neither resource, they just expected me an several others on our raiding team to be willing at a moments notice to help them. I also DID in fact, help members as often as I could...and really just wanted a 'quiet evening of gathering'

My point. I'm like the OP. I am so not elitist. But I have been called it....and every time it happens, it's because I'm simply unwilling at that exact moment to either do everything for someone else/drop what I'm doing to be at someone's beck n call.

And as to the actual top-tier endgame raiders out there. Many of them aren't actually elitist either. They just are playing the game their way, with their friends and likely don't have a plethora of time to 'help' everyone who wants it. Furthermore, their definition of 'helping' is likely very different that the person wishing for 'help's definition is. (Raiders learned the battle from scratch with little to no help from the outside...esp the cutting edge people, and now the people looking for help are typically hoping to just 'cash in' on their hard work, time and knowledge for an 'easy clear' that's not 'helping' that's carrying). When I ask my top-tier raider friends for help, I'm not typically asking them to jump into battle with me, rather it's a /t conversation asking for advice on a very specific part of the battle I might be having issue with...I'm asking them to help me problem solve. I then going back to working on it with my team/friends whatever. THAT is helping....and they ALWAYS will do that. That's not asking for a handout or a carry.