The Ninja Superthread

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Originally Posted by Leonus

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Are you getting mudras off before the GCD recovers? Mudras for a lot of people is a huge determining factor if they can keep their DPS from dropping down. Also like someone said, you might of not had your +20% damage increase buff. Also, make sure your debuffs like Shadow Fang and Mutilate get as close to 0 as possible before reapplying to get their full effect. Also found that a lot of times I may be doing 20 less or more DPS depending on how well I crit in that dummy session.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Are you getting mudras off before the GCD recovers? Mudras for a lot of people is a huge determining factor if they can keep their DPS from dropping down. Also like someone said, you might of not had your +20% damage increase buff. Also, make sure your debuffs like Shadow Fang and Mutilate get as close to 0 as possible before reapplying to get their full effect. Also found that a lot of times I may be doing 20 less or more DPS depending on how well I crit in that dummy session.

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Yea, I have been reapplying everything under 3 seconds to 2 seconds after it falls depending on how ninjutsu rotation lines up with my regular one.

I can't stress enough that I am doing everything I can to push higher numbers and it doesn't seem like I can do much more to increase my dps by 60 if I'm doing everything the other ninja was doing.

It is extremely fustrating, mainly because I don't know why. I would have no problem accepting it if I could see a large, visible difference. I just didn't see one that warranted a 60 dps increase between two players.

His mudra casts were faster than mine and he may have gotten a few more dots during TA but those were it.

record & post a video

cant say much otherwise

Unfortunately I'm on ps4, gonna need to switch back over to pc and try to record it.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Unfortunately I'm on ps4, gonna need to switch back over to pc and try to record it.

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Just upload straight to YouTube using the share button.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Yea, I have been reapplying everything under 3 seconds to 2 seconds after it falls depending on how ninjutsu rotation lines up with my regular one.

I can't stress enough that I am doing everything I can to push higher numbers and it doesn't seem like I can do much more to increase my dps by 60 if I'm doing everything the other ninja was doing.

It is extremely fustrating, mainly because I don't know why. I would have no problem accepting it if I could see a large, visible difference. I just didn't see one that warranted a 60 dps increase between two players.

His mudra casts were faster than mine and he may have gotten a few more dots during TA but those were it.

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Mudra lag can indeed affect your dps numbers. Typically around 10 or so dps, but I doubt it would attribute for a loss of 60 unless it were extreme.

Overall from what I've read it would seem like a sum of multiple factors.

The biggest thing I can stress if you know and have the rotation is Mudra weaving. The GCD should always be moving. Any point in which it stops outside of Mudra lag can be completely negated with practice. Make sure you aren't triggering your OCD moves too late that they delay the next GCD. While it may only be a fraction of a second this can add up very quickly over time.
Also try and capture your dots in your TA and make sure you aren't clipping the mutilate on accident. It staggers itself by the timer.

I can tell you we had a ninja in our FC who was down about 100 dps on his parses and it was because he would often try and cram two OCD moves in a row into his rotation resulting in GCD down time. Mudra and OCD weaving is essential to good dps on a ninja and takes some practice.

But honestly it's hard to tell without watching you parse. If you had a video or something to reference it would be really helpful.

Okay so, last night someone parsed me at 440, the other parsed me at 380.

Then today, 2 different people parsed me, one parsed me at 470, the other at 490+. All the tests were multiple tests.

I don't know what is happening, I didn't change anything in the rotation.

Quick question:

I know people have mentioned mudra lag in the game, I've watched the video in this thread where the mudra casting was *really* quick (granted it was on a personal instance/housing) but my mudras (still only lv 42, so no real skill speed yet) seem "delayed". I normally play with a controller due to issues with my hands cramping up after prolonged play on a KBM solution, but I have tested it on my Keyboard as well to see if it was the 360 controller causing a delay. But in each instance, they seem, well, slow to react. Then there's times when it reacts much quicker (still not as quick as that video). Is this the "lag" that I see mentioned in several threads? Or am I hitting the ten/chi commands too quick causing delay?

Edit: I toyed around with my keyboard and mouse setup a bit more and it seems more "stable", pointing to the controller as the culprit, anyone have any ideas who do play with controllers?

First things first, I'm fairly new to Ninja and came back to ffxiv two weeks ago. So I could be horribly wrong, if so correct me pls.

As soon as I got my second Mudra, I noticed the lag too. So I started toying around to see what causes it. Mainly it's a combination of the ability queing and the latency to the server. Basically ffxiv queues abilities 0.5 before the gcd ends, so as soon as you hit your second mudra, it goes into this queue. But with Latency, bc mudras are casted so fast, it takes 0.15-0.3 (depending on latency) for the server to recognize your mudra activation, so it delays the second mudra bei 0.5 secs + latency causing the Mudra to lag. So yes. What you're experiencing is the often mentioned Mudra lag.

As a sidenote: Because of the lag end the nerf to the poisons affecting only physical damage, using raiton is a dps loss when your mudra lag delays the next rotational gcd by a minmum of 0.3 seks (you should then use fuma shuriken).

Can someone tell me if I'm calculating added dexterity correctly?

With Non-Craft BiS Set in OP I do 172(.226) + 132(.325) + 92(.215)+ 388 = 489.552 added dexterity correct?

I tried a different set that uses Lava toad legs since they're cheaper/easier to get, along with AI pants and choker. 533 acc instead of 535 but eh live life on the edge. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZAT

With this I get 205(.226)+170(.325)+15(.215)+386 = 490.805 added dexterity. May miss once out of every few runs.

Just tried a set with 535 acc and black truffle risotto and AI choker http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZ1T

157(.226) + 164(.325) + 70(.215) + 388 = 491.832 added dexterity. Wouldn't this set be the true Non-craft BiS? (assuming im using the weights correctly ofc lol)

Edit: There's also an option for those who are really lucky and want to use every left-side dread piece, although it's slightly worse than OP Non craft BiS . Opens up some poetics to use on other classes. At 532 acc instead of 535 though. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZAW Comes at 489.223 added dexterity.

If I'm mathing wrong I apologize.

Edit 2: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZE9 An all dreadwyrm set that's at 534 acc. Not better than the other updated builds in Non-craft section( 489.898 added dexterity), but if wanna save some poe for other classes can be used and still be effective.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Can someone tell me if I'm calculating added dexterity correctly?

With Non-Craft BiS Set in OP I do 172(.226) + 132(.325) + 92(.215)+ 388 = 489.552 added dexterity correct?

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Well, that's the right way to do it, but the non-crafted in the OP has +188 Crit, not +172.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

assuming im using the weights correctly ofc lol

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You are. I'm updating the OP now with a few different sets. Non-Crafted list is done if you want to take a look.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, that's the right way to do it, but the non-crafted in the OP has +188 Crit, not +172.

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Ah my mistake. I was trying to make sure no derps, but i was about to fall asleep in my chair :x. So my build isnt non-craft bis with those weights, just a nice option.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

You are. I'm updating the OP now with a few different sets. Non-Crafted list is done if you want to take a look.

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Cool thanks. That flint caviar is so nice, but such a nuisance to get in high quantities xD. Dervy updated his reddit post about NIN's SS weight taking into account .5 GCD delay from mudra (.201) and 1 sec gcd delay (.19). https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...eight_updates/ Also noted he'd be reworking it to be more accurate over next few weeks. I haven't done the math with the sets assuming these 2 new weights for nin SS. The mudra lag struggle is real for me so I may end up using the .19.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Dervy updated his reddit post about NIN's SS weight taking into account .5 GCD delay from mudra (.201) and 1 sec gcd delay (.19). https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...eight_updates/ Also noted he'd be reworking it to be more accurate over next few weeks. I haven't done the math with the sets assuming these 2 new weights for nin SS. The mudra lag struggle is real for me so I may end up using the .19.

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DERRRRVVYYYY!!! >O

Alright, thanks! I'll run the calcs on these again. I doubt there will be much of a difference though.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

DERRRRVVYYYY!!! >O

Alright, thanks! I'll run the calcs on these again. I doubt there will be much of a difference though.

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http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDQ should be the Flint Caviar BIS, with 552 Crit, 402 Det, and 424 SS.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDR should be the Omelet BIS, with 571 Crit, 384 Det, and 464 SS.

Neither set changes between .201 and.190, either.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Neither set changes between .201 and.190, either.

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Yeah, the whole 0.002 difference... We should just call NIN SS weight 0.200.

Finally, here's the full list.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

End-Game Equipment Builds

*0.201 Skill Speed Weight (0.5 second Murdra Delay)*

Crafted:

Flint Caviar - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDQ (+498.369 DEX)

Apkallu Omelette - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDR (+497.853 DEX)

Lava Toad Legs - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZF4 (+497.638 DEX)

Black Truffle Risotto - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZFY (+496.606 DEX)


Non-Crafted:

Lava Toad Legs - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDP (+491.896 DEX)

Flint Caviar - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDW (+491.88 DEX)

Apkallu Omelette - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDX (+491.278)

Black Truffle Risotto - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OZDS (+490.852 DEX)

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What is this dot clipping that everyone keeps talking about? ;o

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Originally Posted by Pyroclastic

What is this dot clipping that everyone keeps talking about? ;o

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To clip a dot is to refresh it before it runs the full course. Clipping with about 2 seconds or less left on the duration is no biggie. Clipping with something like 5 or more seconds is a waste.

In making a case against using ROG vs. NIN, does this math look about right?

Cons:
+15% GDC (-35.29 DPS)
- Kassatsu+Ration (4.5 DPS)
- Fuma Shuriken (5.28 DPS)
- Suiton (2.926 DPS)
- Trick Attack (+10% damage x6/10s/60s + 6.7 DPS = approx. 41.87 DPS [Meleex2-1000, Caster-450, BRD-350, PLD-135, WAR-175])
- 20 DEX (4 DPS)
Loss: -93.866 DPS

Pros:
+ Hawk's Eye (+15 DEX/20s/90s = .67 DPS)
+ Straight Shot (+10% Crit + 7 DPS = 9.5 DPS)
+ Raging Strikes (+20% Damage/20s/180s = 11.11 DPS)
+ Venomous Bite (3.42 DPS)
+ Fracture (3.7 DPS)
Gain: +28.397 DPS

Net: -65.469 DPS

Based on 500 DPS w/ 2.5s base GCD

@Dervy

I just realized that I had 2s cast time for all Ninjutsu on the spread sheet.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/...ps57835da1.png

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Murdras are .5s cast each, so this would be accurate to include a .5s delay with 3 murdra ninjutsu, but Shuriken would be 1 and Ration 1.5. Did you account for that error?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Murdras are .5s cast each, so this would be accurate to include a .5s delay with 3 murdra ninjutsu, but Shuriken would be 1 and Ration 1.5.

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Now that you mention it... if you want to swing a Ninjutsu inbetween GCD, the animation of the last skill you used also gets in the way and mudra wont hit until after that animation lock is cleared...

So it would pretty much be:
Last Weapon Skill Animation Lock Time -> about 0.3~0.5 seconds.
Each Mudra cooldown and animation (considering both the skill animation and server input acceptance) -> from 0.5~0.7 seconds
Actual Ninjutsu skill animation -> About the same 0.3~05 seconds. <- Not as much of an apparent hindrance

So in a 2.00 GCD the actual window to input a Ninjutsu is of 1.7~1.5 because of the animation lock... :|
Might vary from person to person...

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Now that you mention it... if you want to swing a Ninjutsu inbetween GCD, the animation of the last skill you used also gets in the way and mudra wont hit until after that animation lock is cleared...

So it would pretty much be:
Last Weapon Skill Animation Lock Time -> about 0.3~0.5 seconds.
Each Mudra cooldown and animation (considering both the skill animation and server input acceptance) -> from 0.5~0.7 seconds
Actual Ninjutsu skill animation -> About the same 0.3~05 seconds. <- Not as much of an apparent hindrance

So in a 2.00 GCD the actual window to input a Ninjutsu is of 1.7~1.5 because of the animation lock... :|
Might vary from person to person...

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Wow, you're right, I never considered animation time. Even though the GDC is counting down, you're still in animation for that last skill. Since it bleeds into your ninjutsu, that would make Huton ~3.1, Ration ~2.4 and Fuma ~1.7.

There is one minor fault:

If you have bad mudra delay (Raiton clips into your gcd by more than .2 seconds) then Fuma Shuriken will ALWAYS be a dps increase, even with Kass. The main utility of Kass is that it resets your mudra's, the crit is just icing on the cake.

Either way the DPS increase is extremely slight, even in high-end competitive raiding. So it is better for players to just choose their preference but I would argue that Fuma is better is best in almost any situation where Foe Req isn't present.

So what kind of setup are you guys using on the crossbar. I am on ps4 and would prefer not to use a mouse and kb.

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Originally Posted by Makototoki

So what kind of setup are you guys using on the crossbar. I am on ps4 and would prefer not to use a mouse and kb.

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I play on PC again now and still use a controller. I grew up on consoles and my hands feel more comfortable with a controller in my hands that on a mouse and keyboard. Plus I'm and old smash melee player so I know I have fast fingers.

The only real disadvantage I see is shikuchi usage. Other than that, your crossbar needs to be set up how you yourself would like it. Once you get used to it, you will know where everything is without having to think much about it.

I can play on mouse and keyboard, but I feel much more comfortable with a controller.

Also, wtfast for cutting down mudra lag is legit (nat available for consoles yet). It's one of the other reasons I swapped back to pc. That and being able to parse myself.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Also, wtfast for cutting down mudra lag is legit (nat available for consoles yet). It's one of the other reasons I swapped back to pc. That and being able to parse myself.

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Even with WTFast at 28ms at most latency, I still get lag here and there. Its much better with this yes, but mudra definitely needs to be looked at again by the developers. People should not have to pay an extra 9.99 a month to enjoy a job.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

@Dervy

I just realized that I had 2s cast time for all Ninjutsu on the spread sheet.

Murdras are .5s cast each, so this would be accurate to include a .5s delay with 3 murdra ninjutsu, but Shuriken would be 1 and Ration 1.5. Did you account for that error?

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The model doesn't draw data from that tab anyway, so it's fine :)

I've also hard coded GDC delays into the Sim, so it will add +0.5 or +1s GDC clipping every 20 seconds (I can manually change the clipping duration) depending on how long the modelled rotation I used goes for. It's still not perfect, but it'll do for now until I understand how EMX modelled the GDC clipping and animation delays with the Bards BL procs.

Running it with a hard coded GDC clip of 0.75s every 20s lowers the SS weight to 0.207, setting it at 1s changes the SS weight to 0.204.

I don't know if I should try work on it like this, or literally add each mudra's GDC clip manually and then deduct it from the GDC, then add the clipping values to the total elapsed time of the rotation. It will won't consider latency though and that's honestly the hardest part to implement.

People have suggested that I should give different weights for the Ninja depending on peoples latency to the DataCenter, or I could just add 100ms instead, which could average out for NA, EU and AU players.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I don't know if I should try work on it like this, or literally add each mudra's GDC clip manually and then deduct it from the GDC, then add the clipping values to the total elapsed time of the rotation. It will won't consider latency though and that's honestly the hardest part to implement.

People have suggested that I should give different weights for the Ninja depending on peoples latency to the DataCenter, or I could just add 100ms instead, which could average out for NA, EU and AU players.

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Save yourself the extra work and average the weighting, I'd say. It's not like it would be a dramatic difference anyway. Besides, even those that "never" have murdra lag will experience varying ninjutsu cast-times.

Instead of adding separate values for animation, can you simplify it by just setting the cast times as the sum of time spent, like the ones posted above? Also, it's been tested to death, Fuma is our only cast that doesn't clip the GCD. So, we'll want to sub that in for ALL Rations in the sim's rotation, if you haven't already.

Kassatsu resets the cooldown of Ninjitsu every 120s. You'd usually use Kassatsu 3GDCs after your first mudra cast as you want to weave. Assume a GDC of 2.051.

2.051*3 = 6.153+120 =126.153/7 = avg time between mudra casts 18.02185714285714.

The 3 main casts are Suiton, Huton and Ration.

Huton is used every 70s-ish
Suiton is used every 60s ish
Ration is used all the time

70/18.022 = 3.88.

So that's 2 Rations, 1 Sution, cast inbetween each Huton Cast.

2.4*2 + 3.1*2 = 11/4 = 2.75 - 2.051 = average GDC clip of 0.699.

Seem about right?

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Kassatsu ... So that's 2 Rations, 1 Sution, cast inbetween each Huton Cast.

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Realistically, it'd be closer to 3 Rations, 2 Sution and 2 Huton every 120s. So 0.749 avg.

However, if we're replacing Ration with Fuma, which would only take 1.7s to cast, it would be 0.449.

Here's a video of a new opener I've been working on. It bursts /really/ hard. Usually I rip on the Trick/Kass/AE combo, with pug tanks at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7PsjZBfUT8

SE > IR+BFB > GS > Suiton > DE > Potion > SE > Trick Attack + Kassatsu > GS > Raiton > AE > Mugulate > SE > SF > Mutilate

Bursts about 890 DPS (you can see on my window there in that video - my peak is 880 DPS)

I like this opener - it lines up BfB + the second Trick VERY well - and it gives you SF with IR almost 100% of the time.

Odo when'd you start playing NIN?

Mad jelly of your smooth mudras and ability to seamlessly do two off gcds without delaying anything.

IMO it's more important to get SF and Mutilate up within TA than it is AE due to their higher potencies. With mudra delay you risk losing that last attack while still having all your buffs up. Of course, if you always get the last hit in within TA timing 100% of the time that's a non-issue, but if you keep your smooth mudra casts even in instance I want to know your secret. Other benefit is reduced burst, which is bad for sexy parsing numbers and epeen, but better for real world applications.

Anyway it's pretty much identical to the opener I posted earlier and have slightly modified now (BfB > SE > IR > GS > X-Pot > DE > Suiton > SE > TA+Kassatsu > SF > Raiton > Mutilate > Mug > SE > jug > GS > AE) except you prioritize AE over the dots and switch suiton and x-pot in order (which as far as I can tell makes no difference in effect).

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Here's a video of a new opener I've been working on. It bursts /really/ hard. Usually I rip on the Trick/Kass/AE combo, with pug tanks at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7PsjZBfUT8

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Do people usually do dummy parses with acc that doesnt meet cap for FCoB?

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Here's a video of a new opener I've been working on. It bursts /really/ hard. Usually I rip on the Trick/Kass/AE combo, with pug tanks at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7PsjZBfUT8

SE > IR+BFB > GS > Suiton > DE > Potion > SE > Trick Attack + Kassatsu > GS > Raiton > AE > Mugulate > SE > SF > Mutilate

Bursts about 890 DPS (you can see on my window there in that video - my peak is 880 DPS)

I like this opener - it lines up BfB + the second Trick VERY well - and it gives you SF with IR almost 100% of the time.

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You double pop buffs and lose a lot of potency on your DoT ticks.

Well since this is the super thread, I believe I can ask this question. I'm completely new to the game. I just started playing about 3 days ago thanks to the free PS4 trial that is currently going around. I picked Ninja because they're the closest thing to a Battlemage in this MMO and just like Battlemages they use some Magic. Now my question is: do Ninjutsu spells like Katon scale off our INT state? In other words do I need to place points into INT to make those skills more powerful? I'm really confused because they say Ninja's scale off of DEX but does DEX affect the fire, lighting and ice spells you cast?

P.S While I'm at it, what's the best Job for a Rogue/Ninja? I assume Leatherworker?

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

Odo when'd you start playing NIN?

Mad jelly of your smooth mudras and ability to seamlessly do two off gcds without delaying anything.


Anyway it's pretty much identical to the opener I posted earlier and have slightly modified now (BfB > SE > IR > GS > X-Pot > DE > Suiton > SE > TA+Kassatsu > SF > Raiton > Mutilate > Mug > SE > jug > GS > AE) except you prioritize AE over the dots and switch suiton and x-pot in order (which as far as I can tell makes no difference in effect).
IMO it's more important to get SF and Mutilate up within TA than it is AE due to their higher potencies. With mudra delay you risk losing that last attack while still having all your buffs up. Of course, if you always get the last hit in within TA timing 100% of the time that's a non-issue, but if you keep your smooth mudra casts even in instance I want to know your secret. Other benefit is reduced burst, which is bad for sexy parsing numbers and epeen, but better for real world applications.

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Ive found this one is more consistent, the only buff that falls off is TA before i get the dots up, but the second application of TA has B4B up on it to make up for it - I usually am able to get both dots up for that. I also think the only thing that really matters is that potion is up for Trick attack - as long as it is up, it will be fine.

Also my Ninja has always needed food for FCoB - Especially so once I got the t11 head.

I do keep them like that in instance - the trick is WTFast, like a lot of people already use. Using this opener I managed get end at 498 on t11 - which is very high considering I did not have the t11 head yet, and that I only have played ninja in that fight once.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Ive found this one is more consistent, the only buff that falls off is TA before i get the dots up, but the second application of TA has B4B up on it to make up for it

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But why prioritize the lower potency move (AE) over DoTs? It's just a straight damage gain to prioritize DoTs in your opener and spreads out the burst so you generate less enmity, both positive things. Both openers line up 2nd TA with B4B nicely.

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I do keep them like that in instance - the trick is WTFast, like a lot of people already use. Using this opener I managed get end at 498 on t11.

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WTFast alone (apparently) isn't enough for me to get mudras that smooth. I don't have massive delays but it's not great either. For reference, I did 496 in T11 last week, including using LB, using my opener at basically the same ilvl.

Yeah, Idk what to tell you then - WTFast worked for me, though... It didnt really decrease my latency a lot.

Because It lines it up later - the second TA has B4B on it, and gets the dot re-application on it. I've tried both, the DoT opener does less overall.

Its the same Idea with the Snap > Ir > Snap > b4b > Demo opener on MNK - Yes, you COULD open with Demo first - but it lines up the cooldowns much better if you open like that. It's not about the potency - As long as they are buffed, its not really delaying anything - Its about the LATER on into the fight.