The so called "free one" is just base level service. And there is a premium one. Calling is incomplete or watered down in comparison to the premium one is just word games. Seriously think about it. Would people pay more ship things overnight, priority, or regular? Do people pay more for that Lexus logo along with interior upgrades over a basic Toyota? Do people pay for 1st class for airlines over economy class? Do people pay more for supersized at McDonalds over regular dollar value meals? Sure the Toyota, economy class, feels less plush (watered down, incomplete, etc. etc.), are they really not viable? I would argue what they provide at the base level is both complete and more than adequate, but the premium is over-the-top for those that what to pay for the luxuries which is usually not the best money decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang
As much as I like to promote a more inclusive, more just, and more fair world in game and in real life. Giving people the freedom/option to pay more for what they feels is more (whether it is more/better or not is always open to debate, foolish people overpaying for their faux gold iPhoneys come to mind) is a fundamental right of a free and open society. I will always try to impress on the those who are able and those who are better off should always help those who are less fortunate, because we all are out brothers keepers, we have a responsibility to one another. And granted NOT all things/services can or should be sold for the dollar, or for a dollar more, but within ethical bounds, to say to someone else they can not have the freedom to pay for a more premium experience seems like too much infringement on their freedoms, and it is also unfair to SE to shackle them to providing only plain jane vanilla flavor as an one-size-fits-all.
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12-04-2014, 07:10 AMNyarukoW
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12-04-2014, 07:17 AMLunaHoshinoSE has stated that the cash shop is not and will not be pay to win. The only items in the cash shop are minions, mounts and costumes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
Ergo, owning or collecting those items is not considered "winning" to SE. Simple as that. -
12-04-2014, 07:17 AMStihllodeingIt's a waste of time with this NyarukoW. The op has been in almost every single discussion talking about White Knighting.....which I find hilariously ironic. There's nothing to say at this point. He/she is like farming.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyarukoW
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12-04-2014, 07:30 AMAndevomI will agree that this is a bit unfair. But then, so is selling them in game via the NPC after the fact. I remember the Starlight event last year had you getting the macguffins you needed by repeatedly doing a FATE that, at first, had an abysmally low spawn rate. I can imagine being kinda miffed that someone just waltzed up in July and paid a few gil for it without hesitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
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12-04-2014, 07:33 AMRorisSo again, no direct statement from them on the exact definition of winning this game and more personal conjecture, that's nice. It's also been mentioned that paid Retainers, another thing offered in the cash shop which you seem to have forgotten, already offer a clear advantage for DoHs in both terms of crafting mats they can obtain and the maximum amount of items they can sell at once on the markets to make a profit, that might very well be almost, if not directly, P2W. About SE statements, they stated CT would be available at launch yet it wasn't, they stated housing prices would be much cheaper at the housing launch yet they weren't, they stated personal housing would be separate from FC housing yet it wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaHoshino
Ergo other DoW/DoM monetization venues aren't so out of the question and no one should really take their statements as set in stone and unchanging. -
12-04-2014, 07:39 AMNyarukoWIt would be naive for anyone take anything as forever unchanging. Things always change all the time. But the reality is that for a larger majority of things in game or in real life, the more they change the more they stay the same, fundamentally ground shifting change (genius inventions and great discoveries) are rare and hard to come by. But to get upset about players paying more for a supposedly more premium experience is really silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
So far there is no evidence or indication that SE is trying to do less or provide less for the base level service. The fact that they want to provide some premium experience for pay is not a crime either. The entertainment industry across the board has always sought to provide more premium services for those willing to pay more. It is well known vegas rolls out the red carpet for the whales, and I doubt SE going to even come close to taking things to that level. But if they can get the "relative" whales to spend for this game, it is actually and indirect benefit for the rest of us players, especially if it translates to better servers, more server storage, etc. etc. -
12-04-2014, 08:06 AMBlaiseArathI don't even. If SE says it, then webster dictionary on defining the word "win" is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunaHoshino
I think you've unlocked a new job... By your powers combined, the jobs Fanboy and White Knight become "Holy Fanboy".. Its special ability is "Invicibiltity - You are never wrong". Use this ability wisely young Knight, for The Order of the Enix relies on you to defend it from the evil horde of the elite troll legion. Never waver in your duties, less SE be crushed under the might of the Troll Legion of Abxsor.
I'm half joking BUT SRSLY BRUH! Its not "pay to win" in the definition that it gives you higher I.lv or morale gear like the most common definition of pay to win is to be interpreted by the community, I've admitted that in my previous post... But it is pay to win if you're goals are to collect the vanity/mounts/minions, which was actually a goal people said to do when someone complained there was nothing to do in XIV (back before even CT), since said items are unobtainable by any other methods.
I mean, I'm genuinely curious why I bother sometimes, I don't even consider the cash shop that much of an evil to begin with... certainly not on the level of "I want to quit".... -
12-04-2014, 08:23 AMNyarukoWIf you can not obtain it in game, and must pay to get it, what exactly are your winning in game? If you have redefined the win condition to be collected every minion/ and mount in game plus those to be obtained outside of the game, wouldn't it be fair to have to use outside methods. i.e. pay for them, for those outside of the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaiseArath
Not saying that any thing and everything should be bought by money, but is there a good reason why SE should leave money on the table that rich players are willing give them? For the most part SE is not catering to the rich players, whales, but if SE wants to be inclusive of them let them have bragging rights about how silly they are with their money buying all those minions and mounts, is this really so terrible? -
12-04-2014, 08:56 AMMook_Mooknot really. Dillusional is very commonly used as an insult especially in the way you used it. I'm dillusional because I don't see things your way. It has negative connotations. Attached bbut again good tryQuote:
Originally Posted by Xhominid
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12-04-2014, 08:59 AMMook_Mook
While not.directly stated Luna hishino is right. endgamr is more or less what is defined unspokenly through se and most mmo as winning or the ultimate goal of the majority. And majority rules
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12-04-2014, 09:11 AMcraig_meredith2003Ot if youre the mook mook from 1.0 and was in Notorious, Spawn Mabus says hi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mook_Mook
Now on topic Just wait and see what the packages are. -
12-04-2014, 11:48 AMLunaHoshinoYou cannot simply redefine a word or phrase to mean what YOU want it to mean. You even admit that it is not "pay to win" under the standard definition, yet you're continuing to argue that the definition should be changed because you say so. That's not how words work, nor is it how the world in general works.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaiseArath
"Pay to win" has a very specific connotation in the gaming world. Buying mounts, minions and other vanity gear is not "pay to win" because it provides no advantage to the players who purchase those items.
I honestly don't care about the cash shop. I just think it's ridiculous how many people here are trying to twist the definitions of things to make themselves martyrs. -
12-04-2014, 12:41 PMsilentwindfr
@LunaHoshino: wait you don't care, but you are there to defend it... i miss something, why loose time to talk about something you don't care?
here people voice them concern about something that is about to happend and can lead to abuse that must'nt be allowed to happend. most of people arguing often say they don't care of the cash shop, then why do you defend it?
why don't you join the one voicing them concern about a detestable methode that SE want to use? because it's that, what they to plan to do is to create a freemium in a p2p game.
we can't allow SE do everything he want simply because is not "pay 2 win" by definition! because it's possible to go farer without be pay 2 win... like put almost all vanity option in the cash shop... it will still be not pay 2 win... make most of the secondary activity be gated partially behind the cash shop... and it will be not pay 2 win.
because it's not pay 2 win, it don't mean it's ok to do everything and anything! we must stand and say until where is ok to add stuff to them cash shop. or else... we will regret it later.
ps: SE have think that they are allowed to abuse the system and become extremely greedy because it's not pay 2 win. it our fault by allowing this first hand. pay 2 win or not, cash shop must be "controlled" we can't allows them to add every stuff that was develloped with the subs into it. or allows them to add a premium option for feature of the game...vanity or not! it's not normal, it's a greedy way that must be pointed out! -
12-04-2014, 12:49 PMMilesSaintboroguh
I don't think Luna is saying "cash shop is fine because it's not pay 2 win" per se, but they and others are saying that people are twisting what pay 2 win means in order to justify their complaints, getting the term completely wrong and confusing others.
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12-04-2014, 01:08 PMsilentwindfr
probably, however my first point remain, why come argue if she don't care?
because actually we do have a threeway discussion, you have on one side the pro-cash shop, on the other the con-cash shop and you have a group between that come argue when they don't take position, actually them position is: "shut up, we don't care but shut up"
you know i can understand why a pro cash shop want it... but i fail to understand this people coming trolling the thread for... whatever the reason is.
because the concern evoked by the con cash shop is a serious matter, is not something that will have a small impact on the long terms, it can shape how will be FF14 on the long terms. people seems to miss this... we are in a subs game, but with the eternal bonding we do have a freemium option coming of... nowhere, because nothing justify this add. because every month every body pay the subs, they get already more than enough cash for the game.
and the point, is this: the freemium option is something that must'nt be allowed to exist into a sub game... we are not in free 2 play! we are in pay 2 play, we already support the game! we already paying our dlc every month!
people fail to realize that mmorpg is already costly... every 6 month you get a new tiers, leading to 12 dollars x 6 month = 72 dollars, it's the price of a game! every 6 month it's like we buy a game to SE...
often people come here and say other game do it... exept only one other game in subs have a shop... and never they have made a freemium option like the eternal bond one. this game is called World of Warcraft... and even with this shop, they add, maybe 1-2 mount and 3-4 minion per years. there SE in less of 1 month after the release of the cash shop they talk to add another mount and minion, we know that every past even will add more content to the cash shop...
god how is possible to not see how wicked and bad it's for the futur of the game... do you really think the press will forgive them to be that greedy? do you remember how EA was bashed for the microtransaction into Dead space 3? do SE really need this sort of... publicity?
ps: i did support this game while the V1 and i did try to get a lot of my friend play it... and how you want i justify this sort of wicked and greedy move? -
12-04-2014, 01:20 PMLunaHoshinoYes, thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying. It irks me to see people trying to twist things around to support their arguments instead of just saying "I don't like the cash shop." There's nothing wrong with disliking it, and there's nothing wrong with liking it either. People are free to have their own opinions, they just can't try to change the definition of something to support their argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
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12-04-2014, 01:21 PMFateAudaxWhy do you assume that the free wedding isn't the full experience? Why can't the paid wedding be an extra experience instead of being labelled as full experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis-xyx
Perhaps SE originally planned for the free wedding to be the full experience, but since there are people willing to pay for more fluff. They added in an extra experience for the paid wedding. -
12-04-2014, 01:24 PMRiepahOr perhaps they were talking about the mount several months ago already and you just didn't pay attention. How come what we've been teased with for over half a year is suddenly "extra"?Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
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12-04-2014, 01:28 PMFateAudaxPlease, do point me to the link where they talked about the mounts and where they said it is free. I might need some enlightening. As far as I'm concern, they can tease us with both the full experience wedding and the extra experience wedding. In what ways they aren't allowed to tease us with contents that needs to be paid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
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12-04-2014, 01:34 PMThistledownThis guy gets it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
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12-04-2014, 01:42 PMMeier
http://2p.com/3495384_1/FFXIV-ARR-Le...-flamedust.htm
Mount and other stuff shown. No mention of a cash shop whatsoever.
Please show me where they said it will be bought in a cash shop. Afaik it was mever mentioned. -
12-04-2014, 01:54 PMFateAudaxQuote:
Originally Posted by Meier
Hmm.. let's see. No mention that it'll be free either. Please show me where they said it'll be free, made available to all players and will not be in cash shop? Afaik it was never mentioned. -
12-04-2014, 01:56 PMRiepahGood job. From now on, nobody will ever be able to look forward to anything SE announce anymore, because for all we know, it could all end up in the cash shop, which they'll only tell us at the last minute. Good thing at least some people, like you, will be okay with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
I hope you realize this silly "standard vs extra" argument of yours gives them a free pass to slap anything they want in the cash shop, because as long as they claim it's "extra", there'll be people like you to jump to their defense. Whether what they're putting in the cash shop was initially intended to be in the cash shop, or just put there when they realized they could sell it to the playerbase instead of giving it away for just the subscription as there are plenty gullible and spending-happy players, doesn't matter at that point. Enjoy paying more for the same / paying the same for less.Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
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12-04-2014, 02:05 PMFateAudaxhttp://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...aa739e064b3ebeQuote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
Ctrl+F > search: [35:12]
When wedding was first announced, they said and I quote "the system is going to be huge and very customizable". In no way they said it will be free or paid.
You guys assumed that every single upcoming feature which SE will introduce to this game will be made free and available to everyone just because you're playing a subscription based game. Please note that the keyword here is assume.
I don't find it an issue if I am required to pay extra if I wanted the extra feature. If I am unwilling to pay, I can very well accept the standard feature. In no way we are to assume the extra feature is the full experience. -
12-04-2014, 02:27 PMRoris
What a lot of the people that are for the "it's only vanity you aren't winning anything in the cash shop" argument forget, and disregarding again that MMOs have many objectives to works towards, is that the entire base of the debate isn't really about vanity only. Sure, Eternal Bond might have resparked the argument, yet the cash shop debacle goes back as early as paid Retainers, if not a bit before.
Extra Retainers, also sold on the cash shop or rather rented, already offer a clear advantage especially for crafters in regards to faster means to obtain shards and mats, and also another clear advantage that's not entirely limited to crafters by giving people who buy them 40 extra slots to make bigger profits on the markets. A very clear advantage that leans really close to P2W, that a lot of the people defending the current cash shop always seem to forget or omit in their arguments.
It's not about being a "martyr" just like this isn't only about vanity either. We already have very clear aspects of your typical cash shop found in your typical F2P MMOs: we have the vanity aspect, we have the premium services aspect, we have a taste of the P2W/P2Convenience aspect and sure your basic MMO services like race/appearance change, name change and server transfers. It's only logical to expect or at least be cautious of the direction the cash shop and the game are heading to.
You really can't fault people for being concerned about the game spiraling down further towards the typical F2P or even a B2P treatment of an MMO, especially while the game is still P2P. That is, cutting content for a price or giving clear paid advantages, once again, paid advantages like paid retainers already offer. To give an example of a B2P treatment, TSW is B2P yet it sells its story content for a price, think of it as ARR selling 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc for different prices with only the bug fixes and system additions being free for everyone. GW2 offers its Living Story, as good or bad as your opinion on it or the game as a whole is, for free for the first weeks, after that you can only access it through their shop, which admittedly allows everything to be purchased with in game currency. Now picture ARR doing this while still maintaining a subscription. Like others have mentioned, there's a big concern that upcoming content will be monetized upon. Triple Triad, Golden Saucer tokens, premium Chocobo Racing/Rasing Chocobos or items, premium airships, premium GC squadmates, who knows maybe even premium classes and jobs.
Sure this is all just "being paranoid" and it's just conjecture until it either happens or it doesn't, but again the concerns are very well justified seeing how the cash shop is already being treated, especially after previous SE statements towards promised features not holding their weight.
Like some others have also said however, even with all this, yes it's perfectly acceptable for any company to seek alternate venues to make even more money. They might actually really invest it towards improving the game like they've said, they might also invest it in different projects or pocket it all. They are a company and yeah it is their money to do what they want with it, and if so called whales are willing to give it all to them, even more power to them. At least it's better to vent this all out now instead of later and have people say "well no one spoke against it, you could have stopped this" or "it's all the players' fault, they demanded to be nickel by services that extend beyond the basic realm of services in any MMO like Fantasia is, they demanded the basic MMO option to race/appearance change at will after all" or "yeah well players practically demanded it to be F2P, no one wanted the game to be P2P forever and keep all the content in the game provided to them solely on their subscription, who wants that these days anyway?" or the always great "well, those F2P freeloaders don't pay so they don't have any say, see I bought a couple of things on the shop, now I have a real say and I matter more". -
12-04-2014, 02:41 PMBlaiseArathIts this mindset that allows companies to milk the ever living dollar out of you and us and get away with it. slap the word "Extra feature!" on it and the common idiot will automatically believe that they've only got our best intentions in mind, and so they decided to divine us with the blessing of more stuff for the low price of your credit card. Sorry, but I'm not so naive as to think these extras are such a high cost for SE that they need to be paid for in real life cash. Let me show you something from Final Fantasy XI, a subscription based MMO made by Square Enix, one devoid of a cash shopQuote:
Originally Posted by FateAudax
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wedding_Guide (note, there is a wedding fee mentioned, this fee is in >in game currency (gil)< not real life money)
More details: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/M...nal_Fantasy_XI)
Full wedding services including the size of your wedding, the location you'd like to set it up, a GM, an actual paid employee taking time out of doing GM things, who will wed you in game, free fireworks to all participants to set off at the end of the ceremony, and the ability for you to sign any in-game item in a unique way(Normally signed items just have your name, but for the wedding event, you can sign it however you want so long as it wasn't offensive. this is a 100% unique feature exclusively for weddings). All of this? Completely free. There were extras you could purchase (Wedding Dress/Groom Tux), but they were purchased with in-game currency, not RL money. This is how the wedding should have been handled. In every right this "standard" wedding is every bit as special as the "Special" one offered in XIV for real life money.
I have plenty of context to justify that this content should have been provided free of charge, But, we have a cash shop, so naturally, we have to pay real money, cause theres no profit in letting us buy extras with in game currency. This is simply greed and seeing how much they can get away with here. Now I can't hate on SE for wanting to make money, they are a business after all, and one that was on the verge of bankruptcy not too long ago... but what I can do is argue against people who think this kind of thing is our, the consumers, fault for having the audacity to assume a Pay to play MMO might not gate as much content as they can get away with behind a second pay wall. -
12-04-2014, 02:56 PMMook_Mook
my final hat throw into this forray. Forum posting does nothing people have to take action, until a significant amount of revenue is lost SE will not change its practices, because its just too much money to be made. People support this and thats there right too, while I personally do not agree I have unsubbed from the game and will not be returning till the expansion and even then they have to show they have really upped there game. Until people can make SE take there hit to the wallet they will continue to push the envolope to the breaking point as people willingly support this (which they are allowed too) so do more than just post of the forums and then continue playing the game, make a statement and take away the one thing SE wants your money.
edit
Yes I am Mook Mook from Notorious on Wutai, Hiii spawn! -
12-04-2014, 03:04 PMBlaiseArathI agree, its a shame that the only way we can get to them is to cut into their bottom line, while that is our only power as a consumer, is a powerful one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mook_Mook
Now, I've said from the beginning I have no plans to quit over it since I'm not so fervidly against it (that is, until they start going stupid with it.. a few Mounts/Minions and a service I will never participate in aren't getting me out just yet)... and hell I'll admit maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves with the cash shop thing... chances are they'll only add mounts/vanity which I cant bring myself to care about. This wedding thing worries me though, not enough to quit, but enough that I'll be keeping an eye on the cash shop and weighing it accordingly. -
12-04-2014, 03:06 PMRorisI agree because once a company sets their mind on monetization, it's really hard to change their decisions no matter how many walls of text are written about it, though it is possible and has been done before. However seeing an even bigger dip in subscriptions will most likely only cause them to push the F2P emergency button even harder, especially this far in, but guess we'll have to wait and see. About making a statement, well I bought a 6 month sub about 3 or so months ago so personally can't do anything about that yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mook_Mook
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12-04-2014, 03:13 PMMook_Mook
I'm with your roris, my sub is still going too, but i wont be logging on just posting of the forums. Sticking up for the minion collectors and vanity people who people cannot empathize with because pay 2 win is only raid gear.
@Blaise everyone has there own threshold of what is acceptable isnt acceptable. Obviously people are passionate about this game, I mean im sure people put a lot of time into this and want to defend there product there character because it holds significant meaning. Makes it hard to be objective when we are so emotional lol. But just know your limits and keep an eye out! -
12-04-2014, 03:38 PMIzshaThe thing is that this happens in every monthly fee game. In 14 it's called heavensward. Expansions add stories, jobs, quests, raids, and everything else for a 1 time fee. Just like collectors ed added mounts and minions. If you didn't buy an expansion in Xi you didn't get the jobs, the new endgame, story etc. What's the difference if it's online in a shop or online as an expansion download? You give company 1 time fee on top of your monthly. They give you new stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
there's this idea that we deserve it because we pay a monthly fee. But fact is this is not new. This is not some horrid abuse of customers. This is absurdly common, it just comes in different packages. CE editions with skins are standard. Expansions gate crap loads of content, story, dungeons, raids, zones, classes, etc behind "paywalls". No one bats an eye at a giant content dump for money expansion. No one bats an eye paying 20$ for a special edition with vanity perks (don't forget the infinite free teleports to your choice of destination for life from CE!). But put it in a 'shop' and everyone looses their shit.
People want to talk about perspective? Look around. Unless you boycott the expansion because it should be free with our subs then get over it. -
12-04-2014, 04:16 PMFateAudaxExtra stuff doesn't change the fact that it is extra stuff. The original intention was allowing 2 players to tie a bond with each other that represents marriage. They made that process available to all players for free. Now, if you want extra fluff, mounts, dress or whatever then you have to pay for it. Why? You think you're entitled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
If collecting vanity items such as minions, mounts and whatnot is objective to you, then it's only your personal objective. As far as I'm concern, SE has yet to step over the line of Pay-2-Win. It's all Pay for Fluff now. People are making noise in this forum because they assume SE will head down that way. Everything is assumption base thus far. As far as I'm concern, being a collector does not entitle you to collectors item made available free for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
Now regarding the upcoming Triple Triads, Chocobo Racing and whatever Golder Saucer thing. I can pretty much safely say that most players here (the cash-shop haters) are assuming it's gonna be made FREE for all, but please be real, those too are considered extra features. Yes, SE promised Golden Saucer but! did they mentioned it was free? I wouldn't be surprise if certain aspect of it ends up in the cash shop. I can foresee the many more threads opening up once those are out.
This ain't FFXI. Enough said.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlaiseArath
All that being said. Since most of the people who are against cash-shop here has the "I am already paying subscription so everything new must be free" mentality, what's next? Demanding Heavensward to be free because you're already paying subs? Get real. -
12-04-2014, 04:37 PMRorisNotice how no one really ever brings the expansion into the cash shop argument and really didn't until you mentioned it just now? That's because expansions usually bring enough actual new content to a game to warrant their price tag, not just for MMOs but every game since the advent of expansions. People are usually okay with expansions because of this, regardless of where they are sold, just like people are usually okay with paid DLC that brings new missions and content as long as it's priced accordingly. It's the horse armor type of DLC that makes people laugh at the idea of people actually buying it or just avoid it altogether, or both day one DLC and on disc content that's already in a single player game at launch but requires the purchase of an unlock key to access it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Yes, because I know you'll mention this, MMOs usually include all the expansion content for everyone in the updates following an expansion launch. That's mostly due to how they work as a whole and how they are developed system wise, yet that already downloaded new content like new quests, new classes, new zones, etc. can't be accessed until a player purchases an unlock key for it. So yes, purchasing a small unlock key for an MMO expansion is by all means true, yet it's still not quite the same principle, especially since expansions are also sold physically with most of the updates included on a disc, so those costs need to be covered. Nowadays with fast internet and everything going digital, it's simply a carry over from the old days of single player game expansions and for MMOs when slower connections were the norm, even then and still nowadays physical editions also include their respective expansion registration key, just like a lot of games included and still include one. Similar deal with CE editions, physical CE editions are meant to be limited by design and include in game goodies alongside the physical goodies, yet partly because of physical media sales slowing down and of course because of companies seeking more monetization options, we saw the advent of digital editions that cost lower than physical editions but obviously only include the digital goodies. So yes, those digital CEs also fall closer on the vanity cash shop side. The free teleports you mention are also included with the digital authenticator apps, which are free.
On the topic of what you exactly quoted, B2P paid story addons aren't quite close to the content offered in a paid expansion, especially not the content an expansion brings as a whole once it's fully implemented and that's included in your expansion purchase for "free" until the next expansion comes out. Like I said, in those games the content is more or less about the same as the story content offered in an individual 2.X patch so far. Whether you consider most of those updates "mini expansions" like some do, well that's up to you to decide if you consider a single new relevant raid every 6 months or so, a single catch up raid every 6 months or so, a single new dungeon and two dungeons using already existing assets rearranged every 3 months or so, a single new primal fight every 3 months or so, some new systems and some new gear and story every 3 or so months, and the sole exception of one class and job just in this past update, expansion sized content. Especially since ARR and the 2.0 series as a whole in itself is a quasi expansion, quasi remake, quasi sequel, so it's bound to be expansion sized by the end of its lifetime, just like Heavensward won't see most of its planned lifetime content implemented until before 4.0.
So bringing the expansion into the argument really does nothing about it, it's closer to grasping at straws than what some people believe others are doing when they argue that minions and mount collection is an important aspect to them and the goals they want to achieve in game. But by all means keep glossing over what's been said about retainers already offering an advantage, it's funny how a lot of people do. -
12-04-2014, 05:14 PMsilentwindfr
actually, and it sadden me, cut our subs will not solve the trouble, since they will be forced to go to the F2P model for survive.
the only way to make them realize is throught the press, since reputation is really important for company like SE, the only way to make them take a step back is make enough noise for the world point them action.
sadly, i dunno if it work, all we can do is say we don't want this and still hope that Yoshida will understand that them marketing team go too far and that not the best solution. actually it's the worth solution for the futur of FF14. since a lot of Subs player on the long terms will simply drop. because what is the main reason people that pay subs prefer it? because it give you acces to the whole experience... the eternal bond as is showed is not the whole experience, the two seat chocobo is a must have, the fact that some choice was take out and put behind the cash shop is not the full experience.
let's be honest, do it's really the raid that make people stay in the game? since most of the raider that did complet the raid, will only log for one day. the truth is people log for them friend and for the useless but still important stuff like vanity, skin, mount, minion... (even getting gils) i have said in the past (and on another forum) that the last 5 years have hurt a lot the mmorpg, why that? because people only see the raid now as the main activity when it was not the case before.
worst the model of the mmorpg, that normally tend to evolve, have slowly decay because of all the marketing action that have deal a great impact on the quality and the quantity of the evolution of the genre. it's simple, you can check all the other type of game, they did all evolve in the last 5 years, when the mmorpg have only evolve on the graphical point, if you check every mmorpg of the last 5 years, most of them (if not all) did failed because of this, them lack to bring an evolution to the genre.
why that? because they are too focus to get as much money than World of Warcraft... it's idiot. it's impossible, world of warcraft did arrive at the right time and did make know the genre. did it make evolve the genre? no it did repeat over and over and over the same recipe to the point to break it. when you look the last expansion of world of warcraft... what did shock me is the fact i didn't had the feeling of an evolution... only a continuty of what they did before.
now is the time for FF14, that can be a subs game without cash shop and get a lot of money still from it. to evolve far from the model and don't try to get more money like they do. they need to build trust and transparence between them and us. but the eternal bonding will not help in this sense.
ps:about expansion, they are like a new game, that why nobody is shocked, it's a pack that will modify a lot the game to the point to make it look different. and at the same time it's a way for the player to support the company that make it.
i did said that i prefer that they make goodie physical than digital one... because digital one will have an impact on the game. physical one in counter part will have no impact on the game and can bring a lot of money, i'm sure i'm not the only one ready to buy t-shirt or stuff like this for support SE, instead to use the cash shop. -
12-04-2014, 06:14 PMMeiUshuI wouldnt care...this is a game, it doesnt matter really what I want is ..can I get it and at what cost if it costs me money I wont be interested in paying can I have that by not paying if yes then so I am.. if no..well then I will decide if I can stay in the game and dont care about it or is such a big fuss to me that I need to leave the game altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
The point is..you can get the bond equally done, with some imagination...paying is only optional..and if you cant then dont do it simple.
A big fuss over this is just dumb
Mei -
12-04-2014, 09:34 PMJacost
Extra retainers put a greater load on the server since it now has to store more data, so it makes sense to charge players for them. Of course allowing alts to be more easily used as "mules" would be the better option, but that's a different discussion.
Your entire argument about the expansion boiled down to "it's actually worth the price". You don't even know what the price is yet, so how can you judge that? For that matter, we don't know what the cost is for the gold wedding. Would you say that it's "actually worth the price" if it was $1? We don't even have total confirmation on what is in the paid plan. Like I said, I disagree with that bait-and-switch that SE pulled, but I suspect that the higher-ups gave Yoshi an order on the matter sometime in the last month or so. Yoshi has been shown to genuinely care about the game, but he doesn't run the company. What I'd like to see from SE is more transparency, rather than pointlessly bashing a business for wanting to make money. -
12-04-2014, 11:59 PMIzsha
Jacost gets it. It is functionally the same thing. Just because it comes on a dvd in a box doesn't matter. You are buying the content on the dvd. And most games are digital dl anyway now. If you want an example of a cheap little story paid add on I'll point to not one but 3 from SE in their last mmo. Ffxi had 3 tiny add ons that had a side storylines, a few story battles, and a special piece of combat gear at the end (very good, generally bis gear at at the time).
Your argument basically boiled down to expand being larger scale so it's ok. That's weak, and there are examples by this very company doing smaller scale tack ons. Those 3 story pack were 10 bucks each at release for a story you do in an afternoon while an expansion was 20 bucks and expanded the world for years. Either your ok buying content beyond your sub or you arent. The scale and being worth the money are just cop outs by letting you decide on a case by case basis if you are OK with it. If that is the case then I can just say a minion for 3$, or a fancy wedding for 30 is 'worth it' and now I'm no more right than you. You can't be against buying content on principle then turn around and say expansions, add ons, CEs, and digital give aways at paid live events are ok. If you pick a side you gotta stay there, not jump ship just because it's a good deal. -
12-05-2014, 12:04 AMSeoulstarNow this just looks like people are looking for excuses to complain about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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12-05-2014, 12:13 AMAlexander_DragonfangThat is legitimate. Not everyone plays this game for raids and high end gear. Some do them for several things being hyped over the past years as Housing and Marriage. Social gamers and RPers are also gamers, customers and their way of playing and the content they enjoy is not "optional".Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoulstar
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12-05-2014, 12:18 AMSerdapi
Anything that does not advance you in Story or iLvl is vanity content. Vanity content is not the over all goal of a game, yes it is in the game and you can put it as a goal for yourself but the game was not designed that way. The game has a story and raids that progress your character in that story, this is the main goal of the game. If you want a game that is based around Vanity content go play the Sims.
If you want to do things outside the scope of the main goal and the developers give you the option to do so but it comes with a price its fine because it does not involve further or hinder people from the main goal of the game. You choose to participate in this vanity content, in doing so you have the great option of making it better by paying more, you also have the option of not paying at all. You should be happy there is even a choice of not paying, because this content is not even close to the purpose of the game. Everyone complaining needs to get over themself, you are part of the problem. Please do not complain about vanity content in a story based, progressional game. As I said if you want to play a vanity game the Sims Online or Second Life are still around.