Why mark targets?

To add, as a tank, I only mark one mob at a time.

I mark the one I'm pulling, then when its' health is very low, I start attacking the next mob. When the original mob dies, I simply hit my mark macro for the current mob, then rinse and repeat.

I felt that I didn't need to mark three mobs before the initial pull, and don't need to mark 2 and 3 during the battle.

One macro for one mark, then we're good to go.

Doing this in DF is a bad idea. If you have a party that is clearly experienced and want to run it at the slightly faster pace, that's great, you go ahead and do it. But doing this with random groups who've never played together and don't necessarily trust each other leads to some pretty big headaches. Especially since in most low level dungeons, you often run with at least one brand spanking new guy. You would probably spend more time explaining/arguing how to do it than actually running the dungeon normally.

But I get what you are saying. The DPS is better when you spread at least some DoTs around. It just doesn't work with every party, and I would not trust a DF party to work well with it.

If DPS don't know what to attack first by the time they're 50 something is seriously wrong. Watch the tank, attack their primary target first. Not difficult. For the majority of the dungeons there's an established kill order which tanks will follow. Marking is a crutch for clueless DPS in my experience. I only do it when I notice that DPS are being chumps and attacking targets out of order. Or i'll do stuff like mark the gob that stops the birds spawning in Brayflox. English players struggle with hitting correct targets a lot more than JP players, especially in Duty Roulette.

Also, dotting multiple trash mobs is pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blowfin

If DPS don't know what to attack first by the time they're 50 something is seriously wrong. Watch the tank, attack their primary target first. Not difficult. For the majority of the dungeons there's an established kill order which tanks will follow. Marking is a crutch for clueless DPS in my experience. I only do it when I notice that DPS are being chumps and attacking targets out of order. Or i'll do stuff like mark the gob that stops the birds spawning in Brayflox. English players struggle with hitting correct targets a lot more than JP players, especially in Duty Roulette.

Also, dotting multiple trash mobs is pointless.

---

I disagree, I'll mark my targets because whether I'm having to OP x bajillion(what a fun game ; -; ) or actually getting to use other attacks, I want everyone to know what order I'm going in, especially for melee dps since their dps specifically depends on mobs facing away from them. That's where i'm dumping auto attacks, stuns, and maybe sunders, if all im doing is oping, or that's where most of my enmity dump is going if i'm getting to play the game.

Furthermore, I find while trying to level monk, figuring out the tank's primary target is annoying at best, since if the mobs are clumped up I can't depend on the targeting line, and otherwise, I have to target the tank and then target his enemy.

Why are people against communication and coordination? In an MMO?

Quote:

---

Why are people against communication and coordination? In an MMO?

---

I'm not against communication and coordination, I just have a problem with providing crutches for people. Basically, if you keep giving them that, they won't learn for themselves. It might sound slightly harsh but it's actually the best outcome for everyone.

Again, not saying I don't mark in certain situations, I just don't do it religiously.

Sometimes you don't even need to mark to sort things out. A simple "Could you guys please kill the Wamoura's first" does the trick too.

I just don't see how marking targets is a crutch.

Marking may not help increasing outgoing damage, but it definitly helps decrease the incoming damage.

By quickly eliminating enemies with harmful abilities or healing skills, and/or showing which target to focus on. It shows which mob to return to when all DoTs/ other tricks are done. It prevents you DPS from attacking two different mobs, and burn down one instead. Which means less incoming damage, which means less strain on the healer, which means the healer might even have free time to DPS. It helps prevent the DPS accidently pull agro. It teaches people who are new to a dungeon certain mechanics. It teaches people who are not new to a dungeon but who didn't encounter any problems in earlier runs certain mechanics.

TL;DR: it makes a run go smoother.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blowfin

I'm not against communication and coordination, I just have a problem with providing crutches for people. Basically, if you keep giving them that, they won't learn for themselves. It might sound slightly harsh but it's actually the best outcome for everyone.

Again, not saying I don't mark in certain situations, I just don't do it religiously.

---

But how are people supposed to learn if someone doesn't show them?
Yes you learn from mistakes, but it is a lot faster if you simply explain (by marking or otherwise) once. Marking or explaining doesn't stop them from learning to do things on their own, it helps them learn faster. It is not a crutch to help people walk, it is a roadsign to show them which direction to walk in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Yes, this is true. Of course, the DPS are free to DoT even when marks are up. I should have clarified that, for me, marking is almost always equated with "focus down one at a time".

---

Except that marks don't tell you to tunel vision an enemy, but that that one takes priority. Even for DoT classes that can be helpfull. For example: I am a SMN, I will DoT the tarket marked with 1, and then use Bane to spread to the rest. This way the priority target will have a few more ticks. It also tells me which target to return to when I have every single DoT up and a few spare moments to do something else, and which target I should put Garuda on.

im tanking from launch and after my past experiences i gave up marking in df cuz good dps know what to do and dont need it and bad dps dont read or follow it at all.

Someone may have stated this in the last few pages of the thread, I didn't check, but you realize that Full Thrust on drg does 330 potency instantly, and you can have cycled through this rotation twice by the time your dots expire, meaning that your math is completely flawed due to the fact that the single target rotation hits twice in the time dots can go through once. Therefore, you need to double that potency for your math to be correct, which, as you'll see, Is higher than dots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GunksFoy

snip

---

+1 on that one.
While Marking should only be a nice to have at endgame, it's still a good tanking practice. though it may not always add value, it's never hurt to do it.

As for the dots, it's not true always that dots yield superior DPS because of combo bonuses. it's really class specific.
Also, we're talking about trash pulls so applying dot on every target would only shortening the pull by a few seconds while increasing the incoming damage and targeting complexity.

I'll tell you, why I mark trash, from the view of new FFXIV and new PLD tank. I do it, because it makes the job easier for me. I'm learning in those low level early dungeons how to keep aggro, how to maintain proper rotation, how to make sure that all mobs are on me. It is helpful when I mark the targets, so the DPS can focus on one mob and then switch to another, because it gives me more time to react, if something goes bad, I mess up and loose the enmity. Sometimes it's just enough to mark the one I'm pulling, sometimes not... Also, if I'm in new dungeon for the first time, and I run with experienced players, I ask them to mark the correct order for me, as they know, which mob should be taked down first, as it does most trouble.

And on the other hand, as a new player, I've to say, that lots of people are really helpful. As soon as I state on the start of dunegon, that I'm new, they offer helpful advice, lots of tips and are doing stuff more slowly, to not scare me away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shinkyo

+1 on that one.
While Marking should only be a nice to have at endgame, it's still a good tanking practice. though it may not always add value, it's never hurt to do it.

As for the dots, it's not true always that dots yield superior DPS because of combo bonuses. it's really class specific.
Also, we're talking about trash pulls so applying dot on every target would only shortening the pull by a few seconds while increasing the incoming damage and targeting complexity.

---

This

I have a few different rotations for BLM depending on the party. I had one older rotation that I don't use anymore since I shouldn't be tanking bosses. (Since I don't use it anymore, I don't have it memorized-a pity since I finally met some tanks that can hold aggro).

Regardless, to DoT or not to DoT? To do AoEs or not to AoE? It really depends on the situation.

For example, Stone Vigil Aevis mobs. Most tanks prefer that you don't AoE and that you drop one down. Why? They can't be slept, do a relatively high amount of damage, and do plenty of AoEs. So the goal is to drop one quickly, then get to work on the next. This is to reduce the chance that the healer will run out of MP and the Tank dying or reduce the chance that the healer can't keep up with the heals and the Tank dying or that the Tank will just straight die from the damage.

In addition, certain classes do MORE damage (specifically speaking of either time or TP/MP, not both) by focusing on one enemy instead of multiple. Especially for tanks that try to spread enmity (which means they might target multiple enemies), it can be difficult to make sure you are attacking the tank's intended target. I've had a few times where I notice that the DPS are attacking different targets from the tank completely (as in no enmity from certain DPS on certain targets).

Did LL roulette as a tank. Had i90+ MNK and i90+ BRD in the group. Yes, level synced.

Figured that hey, super beefed party, shouldn't need to mark since they should be street smart and attack the same mob when a small pull was done.

Nope. Only when I started marking. And even then, only when I finally just let the BRD have his/her #2 marked mob and almost died did they finally coordinate and take one down at a time. Sometimes people just want to learn the hard way.

I started tanking just a bit ago when I returned to the game this month after a 4 month hiatus. I primarily am Bard/ Healer but I still appreciate tanks to mark. The enmity I generate as a bard is way higher than you expect from your math. For practice when a tank does not mark now (I assume cause they don't have it in their hot bars for some reason) I start marking for them cause it helps everyone and communication is key in this game! :-)

Without going into any real math, I can think of several good reasons to Mark...

It wipes out mob DPS; aides the tank in securing aggro throughout the fight; and thus makes the group more survivable by giving the healer a singular target to focus on instead of three.

You will find that some DPS and alot of Healers will throw damage spells through the tank. I for one am constantly changing targets so as to keep aggro. So by marking the targets it gives them one central mob to focus damage on as well as reminds me which mob I need to pay closer attention to when it comes to keeping the aggro.

I dont know about everyone else, but for me, marking is less about the dps and more about the threat allocation. I've found that a large amount of the time it doesnt matter and if they can the dps will aoe anyway but it simply makes it easier on myself and the healer if everyone knows whats going on in my head. I understand where you're coming from, but most of the time trash is trash and im just trying to have a good time anyway.

As someone whom mostly prefers DPS roles, I can say that it's GENERALLY better for the tank to mark targets if you have a first timer in the party. If you are NICE, you can simply explain which ones to kill first in crowds.

--That said if there aren't any first-timers int he party, then it's up to your party as a whole. Some don't like to waste time doing that and will nuke the crap out of crowds and not give a rat's ass while others prefer things be more organized and will use nukes, but like knowing whom to focus on more.

Personally, I focus on whichever one has the most HP and use that as the central target while I nuke and DOT unless tank says otherwise.

So the dps can simply know who to attack next instead of waiting and seeing...it's not that hard really.

Consider marking as a form of communication.
It is the same as marking an enemy that you are sleeping. Not vital but makes it a lot easier.

Why are some folks so AGAINST marking? It takes literally half a second, can be done on the run as you are coming up to the pull, and gives people a nice visual sequence to remind them of which monsters are most dangerous and which can be mostly ignored. More AoE would be nice to clear the packs out faster, but right now there's not enough to justify making a healer's life harder if she wants to put a few monsters to sleep.

I see no reason NOT to do it. If it seriously detracted from my ability to tank a dungeon I'd say yea, it's wasting too much time. But it doesn't. Smash a macro 3-4 times to number them up as you come up to them and then start your pull. I'm usually done before I'm even in shield lob\tomahawk range.

I find it funny that so many people are responding to a 5 month old thread without really even reading it. . .

You want people to read 19 pages before responding and then only respond if the thread was started within a specific time frame? These forums are slow enough as it is. Don't discourage posting.

marking seems like it would be easier for kb mouse players.

in 8mans dps classes must know the kill order of things.
in 4 mans also, why have tank job do any marking when it's dps job to know kill order? tank's job is to hold hate on whole pack, if dps goes orange on enmity, dps switches target / uses cd lowering enmity. it's that simple really, don't blame tank for not doing dps job :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Play Monk and then see if your opinion stays the same.

---

My main is monk. . . . I'm lvling War atm, I don't mark for people because I've never needed it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeora

My main is monk. . . . I'm lvling War atm, I don't mark for people because I've never needed it.

---

When a DPS pulls aggro from you and you try to regain it while another gets pulled by the healer for trying to keep you alive, resulting in a hectic pull and overall increase in Waste of Time™ and Bad Party Experience®, you'll change your tune.

Bad Party Experience® and Waste of Time™ are registered trademarks or trademarks of Bad Pulls and Lousy Party, Inc. Lost Enmities, Dead DPS, Dying Healer, Last Man Standing Tank, No MP To Heal and Duty Failed are registered trademarks or trademarks of Bad Pulls and Lousy Party, Inc. All other trademarks are properties of their respective players

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raestloz

When a DPS pulls aggro from you and you try to regain it while another gets pulled by the healer for trying to keep you alive, resulting in a hectic pull and overall increase in Waste of Time™ and Bad Party Experience®, you'll change your tune.

---

They won't. . . because I actually watch what everyone is doing and plan for it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeora

They won't. . . because I actually watch what everyone is doing and plan for it

---

Well aren't you just the most epic tank in the whole wide world!

Is it necessary? No. Does it make a run a thousand times smoother, especially for new DPS who might not yet know the kill order? Absolutely. Is it easier in low level content because mobs barely tickle you to get away with just spamming overpower indiscriminately? Yep. Is it a thousand times easier on your healer in places like Stone Vigil where mobs hit like trucks to have a kill order and CC some of them?

You betcha. There's a bunch of reasons to mark. If you don't want to acknowledge the value in it because you think you are some sort of ubertank that can just faceplant everything - that's your choice. I hope I never get filtered into one of your parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aeora

because I plan for it

---

So you choose to not mark, but claims that you plan for what everyone else is doing

Seems legit

Hm marking is useful to coordinate dps, but most of them should have the /assist macro which targets a targets target by the time tanks get around to marking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Souljacker

Well aren't you just the most epic tank in the whole wide world!

---

Lol, I think you misunderstood what I meant by my statement;
I more meant; I keep an eye out for who's targetting what and tab between mobs making sure that they all get a little whack of +Amnity skills . . . that's all
by no means am I a pro tank - I'm just overly cautious I suppose

I find it lazy when tanks do not mark, I understand it helps to rolls dots as I do on my BRD but on my PLD I mark everything. I have 2 and 3 on my hotkeys and 1 on SL I just mark them as we are running to the mob and there is no downtime. It makes for smoother pulls and helps DD know who to jump to next rather then cycling through targets to figure out who we are on. It takes 3 secs to mark everyone if you do it right.

Strictly speaking as a new player who recently (since April 2014) started playing this game. I really appreciate it when someone marks and I'll explain why. When I started playing 2 months ago, I did my best to read all I could about my chosen class and future job (Lancer/dragoon), I learned the combos, I read the post in about "A Rotation Reborn", I printed it out. I made the effort. Suffice it to say by the end of April I was level 50. I usually waited a few seconds in each fight to see which mob got hit first, so I could hit the same one. Sometimes got into groups where other dps opened with AoE, so it was harder and sometimes I was hitting wrong one but quickly switched as soon as I noticed. Anyway, just for this I got insulted, and vote kicked in numerous occasions. Not to mention that if it was my first time on dungeon, I actually did mention it.

Since middle of May, I just stopped doing roulette altogether. I even moved servers LOL. Thankfully this past week, while FATE grinding in Coerthas of all places, I met with a bunch of nice people from a FC and joined them and double thankful to SE that now I can do daily roulette with a full pre-made group. So if I actually do suck, friendly people can advice me, instead of insult me and therefore I can improve.

On my BLM I have all of my attacks on macros that have both <t> & <tt>.

I highlight the tank and simply go through my rotation. Easy to set up and once it was set up I never had to worry about stealing aggro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Souljacker

You want people to read 19 pages before responding and then only respond if the thread was started within a specific time frame? These forums are slow enough as it is. Don't discourage posting.

---

I should clarify.

1) There's a difference between posting in an old but active thread and a necro. I mean, the Rotation Reborn thread has been active since launch, but I'm not gonna ask people not to post there. If the post dies for a month, though. . .

2) Very few people who responded to the thread (even when it was originally posted) actually bothered to read the OP and not just the title. I'm not necessarily asking people to read 5 pages (don't know how people can stand having it set to 10/page), but at least read the original post. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bridgeburner

Also, your second graphic is actually showing the health bars of the enemies remaining on the field - not the threat.

---

Well, I at least have the red square, yellow thing, green things( can't remember which are which shapes) which indicates if I have the aggro of the monster or not(red= I have aggro, orange/yellow I'm nearly having the aggro, green = I'm nowhere near of having the aggro) but that's what I use more on a AoE dps so I know can I throw another AoE or should I do 1v1 skills on some monster. But the pic looks odd to me, since the red marks aren't squares, the are more of a lines <.<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coatl

Hm marking is useful to coordinate dps, but most of them should have the /assist macro which targets a targets target by the time tanks get around to marking.

---

You could just hit T, since that is defaulted to targeting target's target.

But marking means dps don't have to wait in order to be sure which target they should focus down first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexandros_Hanarak

Sometimes got into groups where other dps opened with AoE, so it was harder and sometimes I was hitting wrong one but quickly switched as soon as I noticed. Anyway, just for this I got insulted, and vote kicked in numerous occasions. Not to mention that if it was my first time on dungeon, I actually did mention it.

---

You should have seen the first time I did Ifrit. I announced I was a first-timer--No one said anything. I focused on Ifrit the whole fight and we had wiped because I didn't attack the infernal nail. The tank and other DPS were like "WTF? ATTACK NAIL ASAP", I reminded them that I was a first timer--No response. The second time I attacked the nail and took it out. I also noticed the whole time the healer wasn't healing me.. being an Arcanist, I started healing myself, no big deal... But when I didn't get out of an AOE on time, I died. the healer started casting res but stopped, stood over me doing nothing, then started DPSing Ifrit.

Lesson: Some people are just impatient bags of dicks whom take this game way too seriously and are too arrogant to take into consideration that someone in the party may be new, or even have done the same duty but with a totally different strategy/approach than what they would like to do.

Its' not your fault. They are blaming you for their own lack of foresight and consideration.