60 Minute Time Limit on New Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Draco

Yes they have, but not on their first dungeon. And time limits imposed as a way to add difficulty level is sad.

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time levels adding difficulty while also not setting up stupid tactics is not sad, i mean in ffxi a rdm can beat anything given 3 hours and something to run in circles around. long as the time limit makes sense it will add to the njoyment of the content.

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Originally Posted by Seif

saying that handful of these special events "are everywhere" is a gross exaggeration of epic proportions that gives people who haven't played XI a completely false idea if what that game is like.

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You mean:

Campaign/Campaign Ops
Nyzul Assault
Assault
Ashu`Talif Assaults
Limbus
Einherjar
Abyssea
BCNM/KSNM/KCNM/HCNM/ENM/ANNM/ISNM (only limit beyond time is how many seals/points you have)
Dynamis (daily event now btw.)
Voidwatcher

Before people got butthurt over level caps it was existent in almost all CoP areas, but time limits existed in almost every event the game has to offer.

Also, no. Most of FFXI's quests didn't have cutscenes on the scale of mission cutscenes, only a select few did. However they did have a type of cutscene that just threw instanced NPCs into the areas to further the story, but it wasn't exactly a cutscene in terms of what you'd get with missions, or like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAdox...eature=related

So before you call others liar...at least be clear yourself.

All these people QQing about time limits, seriously what did you all expect it is a ff mmo, with the FFXI team basically making it now. Nearly all of FFXI's endgame was time limited, even HNMs you had 60min time limit. This should of been expected by everyone. All in all if time limited content is game breaking for you, you should probably quit the game. Because atm it is a staple of the FF mmo.

Time limits enforce skillfull gameplay and group work. If your party is crap or unskilled chances are you will fail horribly at the "I am gona call it instance... thing is not a raid with 4-8 people".

I am hoping this is like Salvage where there is multiple things you can do. That way you have to pick and choose what you are doing, the better the group the more you can accomplish.

Others have posted about how if this is trully hard everyone will get owned due to Leve being loltastic in difficulty.... Honestly I hope that is the case. I hope these slaughter everyone who has no idea how to incap and control hate, honestly it is what the game needs.

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Originally Posted by Shikaree

At first I was iffy when I read about the time limit. But after a short while I realized this would be nice for someone that can't spend all day playing the game and would like something for some effort.
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Exactly.
/10chars

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Originally Posted by Draco

Yes they have, but not on their first dungeon. And time limits imposed as a way to add difficulty level is sad.

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"Can't have time limits on the first dungeon!"

Lol.

You can't even grasp how the time limit will work. You just assume it's going to be like any other raid in any other game... with a time limit.

The fact is that best content requires time limits to function properly. If other MMO companies can't grasp that, their loss. Makes it easier for SE.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You mean:

Campaign/Campaign Ops
Nyzul Assault
Assault
Ashu`Talif Assaults
Limbus
Einherjar
Abyssea
BCNM/KSNM/KCNM/HCNM/ENM/ANNM/ISNM (only limit beyond time is how many seals/points you have)
Dynamis (daily event now btw.)
Voidwatcher

Before people got butthurt over level caps it was existent in almost all CoP areas, but time limits existed in almost every event the game has to offer.

Also, no. Most of FFXI's quests didn't have cutscenes on the scale of mission cutscenes, only a select few did. However they did have a type of cutscene that just threw instanced NPCs into the areas to further the story, but it wasn't exactly a cutscene in terms of what you'd get with missions, or like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAdox...eature=related

So before you call others liar...at least be clear yourself.

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Thank you Elexia! I made a similar reply, and they've yet to say anything about it. I just forgot some of the stuff on the list lol

Escort for Hire: San d'Oria - 30 minutes
Escort for Hire: Bastok - 30 minutes
Escort for Hire: Windurst - 30 minutes
All By Myself - 30 minutes
Brigand's Chart - 3 minutes
Pirate's Chart - 10 minutes
Emptiness Investigation/Tactics Pearl - 45 minutes

Garrison - 30 minutes
A Chocobo Riding Game - varies by location and destination

and I believe PW and AV have limits of 2 hours to fight or they disappear?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

"Can't have time limits on the first dungeon!"

Lol.

You can't even grasp how the time limit will work. You just assume it's going to be like any other raid in any other game... with a time limit.

The fact is that best content requires time limits to function properly. If other MMO companies can't grasp that, their loss. Makes it easier for SE.

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Other MMO companies cant grasp something yet they are all more successfull. All I am saying is that if I want difficutly, which I do, I want it to come in the form of everyone having to work together to play smarter, not harder. I would love to see Crowd Control, or having to separate mobs when you fight them and other tactics that makes fighting trash difficult. When it comes time to kill a boss, would be nice to have a boss that is sectional, or a boss that spawns minions, or someone you need to move from spot to spot because standing in the same spot for the entire fight could spell dissaster. Those are just some random thoughts. What I am hoping I dont see is a mindless zerg to get time increasses all the way to the end where you fight a boss that is still unique to the game, but a tank and spank just the same.

Time constraints means you'll push harder to be more efficient which means working together better. If you have 60 minutes you will not screw around or go leeroy your way to victory.

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Originally Posted by Draco

Other MMO companies cant grasp something yet they are all more successfull. All I am saying is that if I want difficutly, which I do, I want it to come in the form of everyone having to work together to play smarter, not harder. I would love to see Crowd Control, or having to separate mobs when you fight them and other tactics that makes fighting trash difficult. When it comes time to kill a boss, would be nice to have a boss that is sectional, or a boss that spawns minions, or someone you need to move from spot to spot because standing in the same spot for the entire fight could spell dissaster. Those are just some random thoughts. What I am hoping I dont see is a mindless zerg to get time increasses all the way to the end where you fight a boss that is still unique to the game, but a tank and spank just the same.

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those things arent mutally exclusive, fighting how you should(good involved tacctics and strategies) should theoretically be more time effecient, either by killing faster, or reducing chance of death, which leads to weakness, which slows down everything.

You are thinking time limit like just throw waves of weak monsters that you kill fast while being mentally afk, they havent made content like that before, but then again looking at behest, and leves in a full group, i can see why you may have reasons to fear that.

Difference is this is the first of the patches that are supposed to make fighting callenging and rewarding, the old 10 level limit and zerg is best strategy they implemented in November will hopefully be departing here.

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Originally Posted by Draco

Other MMO companies cant grasp something yet they are all more successfull. All I am saying is that if I want difficutly, which I do, I want it to come in the form of everyone having to work together to play smarter, not harder. I would love to see Crowd Control, or having to separate mobs when you fight them and other tactics that makes fighting trash difficult. When it comes time to kill a boss, would be nice to have a boss that is sectional, or a boss that spawns minions, or someone you need to move from spot to spot because standing in the same spot for the entire fight could spell dissaster. Those are just some random thoughts. What I am hoping I dont see is a mindless zerg to get time increasses all the way to the end where you fight a boss that is still unique to the game, but a tank and spank just the same.

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That's exactly it. The Time Limits make you think about how you should best get through the dungeon by being smart about it...That's the whole point. If you aren't working hard to begin with and not paying attention, you would be bound for death anyway. In SE's games, they make you play smart. In better ways than WoW ever made me think.

In WoW it's just "okay, when big boss spins, you get away so you don't die, then get back on and keep chipping away at him".

In FFXI it's: If you don't get away from him before he uses this ability, he'll reset all of your recast timers. Which could potentially ruin the fight if you don't have your 2-hours readied.

I like time limit for now, it will give a challenge not to screw things. We will see more when it comes out.

FFXI also have NMs with auras that will easily ruin any fight if ill prepared, which can eat your time up nicely. Like Zombie Aura or Silence and Amnesia Auras >.>

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Originally Posted by Draco

Other MMO companies cant grasp something yet they are all more successfull. All I am saying is that if I want difficutly, which I do, I want it to come in the form of everyone having to work together to play smarter, not harder. I would love to see Crowd Control, or having to separate mobs when you fight them and other tactics that makes fighting trash difficult. When it comes time to kill a boss, would be nice to have a boss that is sectional, or a boss that spawns minions, or someone you need to move from spot to spot because standing in the same spot for the entire fight could spell dissaster. Those are just some random thoughts. What I am hoping I dont see is a mindless zerg to get time increasses all the way to the end where you fight a boss that is still unique to the game, but a tank and spank just the same.

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Since you've apparently never heard of FFXI...

Crowd control - most BCNMs, Divine Might, Long-Armed Chariot (all had time limits)
Boss that is sectional - not sure what you mean but PW probably fits the bill (time limits)
Boss that spawns minions - Kirin, Vrtra, Ouryu (Kirin wasn't timed but the rest were)
Move from spot to spot - Long-Armed Chariot in some strategies, Vrtra (time limits)

You should try FFXI sometime. I hear the people who made it worked on FFXIV too.

Ha. I'll leave this here:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bloodeye_Vileberry

This NM literally uses Hide + Sneak Attack on the player with most hate.

"Sectional" Bosses are bosses that have multiple parts to take out before you can kill it, like a lot of old school FF games, or even FFXIII (and XIV with incaps).

Bosses that spawn minions Yeah, AV and PW are the kings of that.

lol funny something good happens, and people find a way to nitpick at it, especially when its not even out yet.. Classic never gets old

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Ha. I'll leave this here:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Bloodeye_Vileberry

This NM literally uses Hide + Sneak Attack on the player with most hate.

"Sectional" Bosses are bosses that have multiple parts to take out before you can kill it, like a lot of old school FF games, or even FFXIII (and XIV with incaps).

Bosses that spawn minions Yeah, AV and PW are the kings of that.

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I suppose Eald'narche and his Exoplates count as sectional then? So yeah.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

lol funny something good happens, and people find a way to nitpick at it, especially when its not even out yet.. Classic never gets old

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There's alot of "Stans" in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-MqIIoc5r0

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

There's alot of "Stans" in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-MqIIoc5r0

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Hahahah. I love south park.

Since it is relevant I will make another reference to Monster Hunter.

In Monster Hunter every single quest has a time limit, usually of 50 minutes. There are a few incredibly difficult (bar having all endgame super gear) encounters that require a great degree of teamwork, effort and knowledge to take down. Lao Shan Lung, Shen Gaoren and Jhen Mohran.

The quest objective is to simply repel the monster. You can fairly easily achieve this by just doing enough damage. The good teams however will be able to kill these monsters. Rewards from repelling are decent at best, rewards from killing tend to be much better. More items, higher chances at rare items, etc... You have to really give your all as a team and know exactly what you're doing to kill these monsters within the time limit though. Given enough time anyone could kill them but the true challenge comes from the time limit imposed.

I'd like to think that's how it's going to work here. To beat everything within the time limit you're going to have to be a very well organized team who knows what they're doing and knows how to do their respective jobs correctly and efficiently. Having the 60 minute cap may mean you'll be down to the second on some runs, and you'll fail still sometimes. Hopefully it means that you'll have to really work together and cooperate as a team. Reward competent players, punish poor players.

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Originally Posted by Seraphita

If you suck, Yes. If you have any amount of skill, no. I heal the highest level NMs in the game at level 30. Point and Case. You can also regenerate mana in battle by disengaging after healing. So yes if you are an idiot, it might be challenging.

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yeah i am sure you heal the mobs that do 1k damage on your cure II. it's also been pointed out that this game has no dedicated healer in the game so if you are not buffing, debuffing, casting dot's, and helping in the battle regimens then it is not shika that sucks as a mage. if you are an effective mage you are not doing one mindless thing. the groups doing nm's must really be hard up to take a r30 mage with them for healing only.

A 60 minute timer on normal dungeons is just fine. An hour is more than enough time to explore a dungeon or at least get your bearings, see what enemies, conditions, treasure chests, etc. are there first. Also its not like they have a limit on how many times you can enter right?

What if there are time extensions?

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Originally Posted by Reaux

What if there are time extensions?

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Thats possible too.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

What if there are time extensions?

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Only if you do a melee attack on a Ganado.

protip: Use flash bangs on the Las Plagas.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Only if you do a melee attack on a Ganado.

protip: Use flash bangs on the Las Plagas.

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i c a renta

Ok, I don't have time to read all the garbage post from people who will never be satisfied. I just want to point out the score here. OP Time Limit Bad 18 Likes. Second Post Time Limit Good 43 Likes.. Winner Time Limit Good By more than double.

Why do people insist on defending these limitations...

Regarding what was said about instances taking up server resources:

It's 2011. We have computers in our pockets now. Word on the street is in the early half of the last decade (in MMOs besides FFXI): If you wanted to participate in said event/instance, you participated. There's absolutely no reason as to why such an established Dev/Publisher can't pull out the stops on... well.. most of their recent projects.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

i c a renta

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:O

*flashbang*

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Originally Posted by Reaux

What if there are time extensions?

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Only if it's done in Dynamis style and not Abyssea style. If there's time limitations in place, they shouldn't be infinitely broken to the point they could be rendered pointless.

I still dont see how 60 minutes isnt enough time to complete certain objectives in a dungeon or just do a straight kill through to the boss. Especially for normal content, not crazy endgame stuff. With all the battle, stat, equipment, and enemy adjustments 1.18 is supposed to bring, it should be a good experience.

Besides what about those floating interference objects talked about in the newspapers? That could be a time extender of sorts?

i'm glad they have it. i can't stand being in 3 hr plus dungeons. i hope they aren't super easy but i like being able to manage my time and have a reason not to be sitting on the computer committed to a party for the day. ffxiv has to start adding in more random surprises though. the 'surprises' in the leves are the same each time so it gets kinda lame. their entire outlook on the game is a bit too formulaic. if they just added new challenges to some of their old content it wouldn't be so bad. make like 5 different varieties of mobs that could pop, when the creature runs away or something. keep the oh s#!t factor alive. i'm excited about these dungeons but other people are bored with it before it even came out.

Knowing SE, the drop rates will be low so everyone will have plenty of chances to "take in the scenery." Personally, I think in today's MMO a time limit is almost required to keep the difficulty of the dungeon at the level it was intended. I just hope these dungeons introduce strategy/challenge to the game.

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Originally Posted by Draco

So besides FFXI, what MMO's are you referring to. I have played over 10 MMO's and have never encountered any time limit instanced dungeon situations besides FFXI, and I dont remember that from any of the COP dungeons, just the couple of endgame ones.

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CoP "Dungeons" were a area, not a instanced event. If I recal Correctly Ultima Online also had some timed dungeons as well.

One reason to limit the alloted time is probably to creat a sense of urgency and actual teamwork. Hell Limbus could be SOLOD by a single blackmage and if givin unlimited time they would be able to finish the entire thing.

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Originally Posted by Draco

I did not say time limits. I said limitations. Gathering fatigue, Skill Point Fatigue, paying a monthly subscription and having to pay 3 dollars for each and every single extra character when almost all other MMO's give you multiple free characters ( yes the game is currently free ) are just some examples of limitations.

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I don't completely disagree with you, but it's worth noting that most other MMOs lock you into whatever class you pick at start, whereas with FFXI and FFXIV you can play whatever job/class you want without having to make a new character.

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Originally Posted by Degradation

Why do people insist on defending these limitations...

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Because Second Life is a shitty "game."

They're not limitations, they're rules. Games have rules. That's what makes them games.

We have an OP here who hates rules and probably thinks the alphabet is sexist and then wishes that they made a game exactly like FFXI was (but he wouldn't know: he didn't play because he was too busy QQing about its "limitations" and what he thought it might be like because it had rules too).

I'm sorry you're all butthurt that you can't throw a fucking picnic in the raid dungeons.

No wait that came out wrong. I'm not sorry you're all butthurt-- I'm sorry that you won't shut up about it.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

CoP "Dungeons" were a area, not a instanced event. If I recal Correctly Ultima Online also had some timed dungeons as well.

One reason to limit the alloted time is probably to creat a sense of urgency and actual teamwork. Hell Limbus could be SOLOD by a single blackmage and if givin unlimited time they would be able to finish the entire thing.

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Exactly. You'll be able to take in the scenery just fine as well as get the job done within an hour. Besides with different objectives, you might have to revisit the same place multiple times until you know whats up.

Like the Sacrarium. That was a dungeon, non instance and had a boss fight and tons of fighting if you so chose. As well as a changing room layout depending on the day.

Sadly though this is the "give me instances or give me death" generation ><

Personally I'm more for open world non-instanced content. I want to be able to run into the cave of utter death BY MYSELF. Sure I'll probably never emerge alive but I want that option.

It's as simple as that. Without a time limit, the dungeon could be done for 10h+ straight to get EVERY and each little single piece out of it in ONE go. Content clear...hurray!

But what if the amount of stuff to do in the dungeon is enough to make a 60min timer challenging? Every stupid noob group can try one fight over and over til they get it done if there is no time limit, but what if good performance with skill and teamwork is essential to actually be able to beat it in that timelimit? People will have to be focused, pay attention and actually do what an MMO tries to teach you, to PLAY YOUR CLASS. Even WoW, the godfather of MMOs learned it the hard way. They imlpemented cockblocks, like a max amount of tries before your Raid ID gets shutoff.

Why the hell would you want to get 2 dungeons that everybody was waiting for and stay 10h in it to beat it the first day, when there is the possibility of progress over several tries limited to 60min each? Good groups might be able to finish it in a few tries, mediocre groups might need a few weeks, and bad groups will never really progress(which is the whole point of rewarding loot). If you want to be able to faceroll your way through dungeons and just wipe over and over til the boss dies of exhaustion, play another MMO. A timelimit is a way to implement difficulty to a dungeon, the more important part though is, that this timelimit is tuned that way where it actually gets hard to finish it in said timelimit w/o doing well which implies mobs and boss' and shit that might punish mistakes really hard and make you wipe fast so the timelimit will only prevent you from doing those boss' over and over til a monkey could kill it.

I for myself am very excited and look forward to those dungeons. If they are faceroll and you can run through them with less than 30min, I will be disappointed, but if the timelimit of 60min actually does come into effect cause the amount of stuff to do in the dungeon demands you to do good to get it done before 60min, I will be happy and satisfied.
I wasn't hoping for 2 dungeons just to be done with them in 1 day...I was hoping for them to keep me busy for weeks if not months. So anybody who wants this stuff to be beatable in 1 day, go F off...