Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

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Originally Posted by Valence

How about we stop watering down the job for once we have something interesting going. That's the only interesting optimization play we have with this job (at the opposite of the atrociously bland EW version) and as usual we have people trying to remove it because it "gets in the way".

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I don't think "Increase Gauge by 50" is an "interesting" mechanic.

They basically took the trashy mechanic away from RPR/MCH and was like "Wait, let's give it to Dancer... the job who's gauge generation is very spiky as is"



The issue people have is Dancer's Gauge generation is extremely random, you can be at 0 gauge and next thing you know you're at 50.


Tillana was better when it refreshed Standard, removing that mechanic also nerfed Dancer in level 90 ultimates.



Also - They could keep this gauge granting mechanic by adding 1 simple mechanic to the "Enhanced Technical Finish II" trait


"Increases Maximum Esprit to 150 while under the effects of Technical Finish".

The fact that it's random is what makes it fun. Why play a rng job if what you want is stability and predictability?
Increasing to 150 also removes all the constraints and priority.
Now I understand better why they removed the rng from AST after reading that thread...

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Originally Posted by NightHour

The issue people have is Dancer's Gauge generation is extremely random, you can be at 0 gauge and next thing you know you're at 50.

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Okay, but... That's dancer? Are you essentially annoyed that you okay a proc centric job and it is turning out to have a strong random component? (It doesn't even, it's incredibly mild) There are like... all... other damage jobs if you want something less randomisation influenced.

also a lot of jobs have been flattened to bland slop from having "not that interesting" things sanded down over time, this seems like one of those, really.

maybe in another expac or two it'd be where DRG is now

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Okay, but... That's dancer? Are you essentially annoyed that you okay a proc centric job and it is turning out to have a strong random component? (It doesn't even, it's incredibly mild) There are like... all... other damage jobs if you want something less randomisation influenced.

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The job would still have it's procs even if they took away this god awful mechanic.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

The job would still have it's procs even if they took away this god awful mechanic.

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Holupaminit... do you ... do you genuinely think that procs with no gameplay ramnifications are meaningful as a design element?!

You know, the whole "a proc that can never happen at an inopportune moment does not need to exist". Inopportune like say you are overcapped already after you pressed Tillana and hence the proc "is wasted". It adds no element to the gameplay loop and can at no loss of design be replaced with either a fixed income or nothing and a rebalance of numbers. The whole way a proc becomes relevant is if at least either and ideally both of the following will constantly impact your gameplay:

* You need a proc, but you don't have one right now.
* You get as proc, but for a variety of reasons aren't helped by it (overcapped is the simplest one).

If neither of these have an impact, there's no reason to have procs. At all. Which you got like 2155 classes to pick from already if you want that. So maybe leave the one class with marginally relevant procs for people who enjoy basic variety in their combat classes in their RPGs, maybe? They already made procs functionally irrelevant on Red Mage, so it's good Dancer at least has marginal interaction with its procs. (edit) And don't get me wrong, the state of classes based on procs (Bard, Dancer, Red Mage) is appaling, but not for "there's too much chance of overcapping a gauge"-reason, if anything the opposite. Procs and variable resource generation have too little impact and meaning, not too much. And an important part of chance-based class design is that the chance has to have the ability to actually impact your gameplay, meaningfully. And frequently.

You can in turn fudge the numbers, sure. Maybe the chance to get procs for +gauge get magically lower when your gauge is already high or you're near the burst CD coming up, while it is magically higher outside of that (and the total gain over say 2 minutes happens to always end up nearly the same). WoW famously did this after PPM-systems were introduced (in itself an important evolution of procs), where they fudge numbers to ensure procs cannot be too frustrating in either their absence or presence. They can still be, but the effect is automatically cushioned a bit for you.

But this here? This is an optimization point, and nothing else. It adds a simple step the player checklist: "Is gauge at 50+? Don't press Tillana - yet - unless overcapping is still optimal.".

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Originally Posted by Valence

The fact that it's random is what makes it fun. Why play a rng job if what you want is stability and predictability?
Increasing to 150 also removes all the constraints and priority.
Now I understand better why they removed the rng from AST after reading that thread...

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NGL after giving it more time to sink in, I came to appreciate the non-static'y nature that Tilana brought to their reopeners. It was already quite bad when they kept adding more and more high potency GCDs that screams "you MUST snapshot these within your buffs!!" to the point you simply have no more room to fit Reverse Cascade & Fountainfall, both of which are precursor to additional chances to proc Fan Dances. Outside maybe during very first opener when there's a moderate chance the Tech Step won't let you generate enough Esprit for at least one or two Saber Dances.

I very much prefer the times when Rising Windmill and Bloodshower still had their place in Flourish windows while also adding even more randomness via chances for Fan Dances. But if I can't have that anymore, then I'd like to keep Tilana's 50 Esprit generation. If I want something more static'y, there's MCH to pick up (or any static job tbh).

I'd go once step further, Tillana should give 100 gauge!

The game is a lot more than just Full Party content. That 50 gauge is very welcome in light parties and smaller. I'm on the side to keep it in. Feel bad in your full parties for overcapping. That's just the nature of an ability that fills gauge with party member actions. Welcome to DNC, enjoy.

Okay I think if they didn't get rid of dancer's melee combo from Shadowbringers people would love the job. going in close range during flourish to use blood shower was so visually satifying and the fact i can barely use that beautiful button sucks. not only that now i have 2 less buttons to press during flourish. I think the only reason they changed it is because they buffed the aoe range of moves like bloodshower making dancers hit more enemies than they may want to, such as the dangerous adds in criterion dungeons implemented in endwalker. 1 attempt to improve usability removed some fun motion from the job and then they just chopped the flourish button as a result. they double downed on an awful job change.

The overcapping arguement wouldnt even happen. Nobody would care about the jank overcapping getting FIXED like machinist but endwalker dancer so boring after the flourish changes square enix invented friction in dawntrail for the literal simon says job they lobotimized for the community.

Poor Valence and Carighan are so starved for job depth they're clinging to to this weird "optimization" quirk square wrongfully invented. All healers, dragoon, dancer and warrior have had so much interesting interactions sanded off over the last 9 years I've played so i sympathize with Val and Car. However this is one of those times i gotta disagree with them that the guage management on this job is well designed.

Dancer and many jobs are in desperate need of new mechanics to keep our brains on next expansion. That way even if gauge management is kept this awkward it can be compensated by other systems in the kit.