Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

First of all, you're looking at such a minor subset of the community doing healerless clears, when that's not what DF and PF do as standard. Why isn't it a problem that all DPS basically can't clear then if this is such an issue? Why isn't it more celebrated that there's an all healer can clear ARR thing if that's the case? Why is it that in order to even do a healerless clear, we need specific setups of certain tanks and dps to basically pseudo mimic healers as a fun challenge which as I've set, is a very minor subset of the community. You'd have some grounds if it was the standard in all parties commonly, just like PLD and MNK in HW were utterly doomed.

Secondly, spare me the rhetoric. It's a question that hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, because if were going by SE's design as is, they'd more than likely buff the damage of healers rather than swap them, but while tanks have an actual rotation and healers don't, that's part of why the rotation is there. Would it be great for healers to have more buttons? Sure, that would be a much better thing to bring up than trying to nerf people which SE very rarely do, and usually it's something very minor anyway, hello RPR's Arcane Crest.

Nothing good comes with trying to screw over other jobs as such. Blame SE for not making healing as fun as it could be, but don't ruin other peoples fun. If you don't like healers not being included in very super specific instances, join a party that...likes having healers? Which is the majority of the playerbase?

You can try to tell me all you want that tanks are ruining healers fun, I can disagree with how many healers prefer having me around over your local DRK. If you wanna keep asking that question though then I guess keep going? Time better used elsewhere really, but if you think you'll get further than the people in EW who tried to beg for self sustain nerfs for a long time, look how it is in DT and ask if maybe you should pursue another avenue instead of something that goes counter to SE's design.

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I was on your side of the fence for a long time but comments from Snow did get me thinking, why is it fair that sidelining healers in speed runs not for the sake of a challenge because it was not exactly harder the group made a bunch mistakes and had multiple deaths and still had a decent time in terms of speed killing with mistakes and deaths mind you. That is really weird design when you think about it. It is certainly getting the point that what is enjoyable for us, may not be best for the overall game.

I would not like it if my ENTIRE preferred ROLE was sidelined even in small subset because it is legit quicker to cut me out EVEN with MISTAKES. I would be kind of salty. Even if they brought the healer damage up even if it matched tanks in practice, it probably would still be a net gain to not take a healer cause their update would not be as high as tanks if tanks mit and sustain was still enough to meet the healing requirements in conjunction with others sustain.

As stated it really did not seem like it was a challenge per-se because it was cleared with deaths and mistakes but was still a fast clear. Sure healers are needed for majority of groups that is fine, but even so when the exclusion of an entire role proves to be quicker than some standard comps. At that point you got a design problem that is being created by a lack of something or something just being too strong, or both.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I was on your side of the fence for a long time but comments from Snow did get me thinking, why is it fair that sidelining healers in speed runs not for the sake of a challenge because it was not exactly harder the group made a bunch mistakes and had multiple deaths

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Speedruns are speedruns, people will do crazy things to achieve them. Just remember the #deleteMCH era where a group infamously farmed LB just to get the ninja to spam LB's to do speedkills faster than having a physical ranged in the party which is a 1% stat loss among other things. It's also just not a very common sentiment anymore. That's how you push limits to see how far you can push a game. It's interesting, it's sometimes bizarre, but it is what it is.

Generally though even during that period of time in SB? Yeah that wasn't commonplace, MCH's were still allowed in most parties, usually if the PF meme'd by locking RDM or MCH, it was a trap anyway.

That being said, Healers have their own problem of mainly having little to do when there's nothing to heal, which yeah, there's just going to be times where there's not much to heal like how there's not constant tankbusters firing off every single auto. If you'd rather waste time though on a rhetorical question though on a very small piece of content, and not considering things like deep dungeons/extreme/savage/ultimate/eureka content/criterion/etc. especially for general players and not hyperspecific groups with acute knowledge and skill of the game to execute it, then you do you. Again, tried to warn people when forums wanted to nerf tank sustain by saying it wasn't going to happen for months, and now we got even more of it.

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Speedruns are speedruns, people will do crazy things to achieve them. Just remember the #deleteMCH era where a group infamously farmed LB just to get the ninja to spam LB's to do speedkills faster than having a physical ranged in the party which is a 1% stat loss among other things. It's also just not a very common sentiment anymore. That's how you push limits to see how far you can push a game. It's interesting, it's sometimes bizarre, but it is what it is.

Generally though even during that period of time in SB? Yeah that wasn't commonplace, MCH's were still allowed in most parties, usually if the PF meme'd by locking RDM or MCH, it was a trap anyway.

That being said, Healers have their own problem of mainly having little to do when there's nothing to heal, which yeah, there's just going to be times where there's not much to heal like how there's not constant tankbusters firing off every single auto. If you'd rather waste time though on a rhetorical question though on a very small piece of content, and not considering things like deep dungeons/extreme/savage/ultimate/eureka content/criterion/etc. especially for general players and not hyperspecific groups with acute knowledge and skill of the game to execute it, then you do you. Again, tried to warn people when forums wanted to nerf tank sustain by saying it wasn't going to happen for months, and now we got even more of it.

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

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It is not irrelevant, it shows that at the core SE has a design problem that needs to be address from both sides of the isle. Tanks are just as much a part of this equation and issue as healers are. Tanks and healers across the board in many games have always been a give and take. For them to adjust healers that allows each style of play to see some light something has to give on the tanks end. Maybe not damage, but something in their kit will have to be readjusted. Fair conversation is to see what exactly the tank community could see as a compromise as to what needs to be adjusted on their part. For the health of the game overall tanks have to be brought in line overall.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

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I gave you 5 possible solutions to this problem, explored them all and then explained why I’ve had interactions where tank mains have blown back that particular solution for x y or z reason and the only response you gave was a vague “this is better than asking thereotical questions and I can kinda see 3 and 5 working but won’t elaborate or explain how I’d deal with solution 3 or 5’s criticisms also wait for 8.0” then that was it

You aren’t even interested in discussion of actual solutions because you refuse to see that tank mains will blow back every solution for whatever reason and because of that “don’t harm tanks to fix healers” fundamentally doesn’t work

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I gave you 5 possible solutions to this problem, explored them all and then explained why I’ve had interactions where tank mains have blown back that particular solution for x y or z reason and the only response you gave was a vague “this is better than asking thereotical questions and I can kinda see 3 and 5 working but won’t elaborate or explain how I’d deal with solution 3 or 5’s criticisms also wait for 8.0” then that was it

You aren’t even interested in discussion of actual solutions because you refuse to see that tank mains will blow back every solution for whatever reason and because of that “don’t harm tanks to fix healers” fundamentally doesn’t work

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And I still agree 3 and 5 work, and again that's not my job to figure out healer stuff. I will still repeat that regardless, doesn't take a healer main to know that the question posed earlier is dumb, and that there's better uses of your time though.

I'd be semi interested in the discussion if there even was one to be had. SE as I've stated rarely hand out nerfs, that's just a fact. Especially considering how this again is relating to those very rare instances of healerless clears which is nothing compared to the old times which you don't seem to want to address like #deleteMCH, P8S week 1, and HW PLD/MNK where the general public had very clear bad vibes on the undesirables. Healers aren't anywhere on that category, PF and DF are the same usual comps unless it's unsync which yeah, unsync, woohoo. I would still focus on that 3/5 and go from there, but if you wanna keep looking at this then I mean go right ahead. The curse of WAR where nobody wants to listen apparently.

You think people would learn after tank sustain didn't get nerfed in the slightest despite months of seeing a small set of people crying for it, but you do you. I'll hope healers and the jobs who have issues get their fixes though. Would be nice.

And once again you completely ignore the fact that I’ve specifically told you that I’ve had tank mains who discussed this with me who said they will absolutely refuse to support solution 3 or 5 because they believe it enchroaches on their role or otherwise believe that it isn’t good for tank healer inter balance because they are also afraid that the healer will start to ignore them (solution 3) or they are back to relying on the healer when they don’t want to (solution 5)

How do you reconcile the fact that other tank mains have opposing opinions to fixing the healer problem than you do. Sure it’s easy to go “it’s not my problem good luck though” but that doesn’t help in any way

I don’t know how many times I have to tell you I’ve been having “productive discussions” as you put them and tank mains cut me off at the knees on every one because every tank has a different idea on their roles responsibility and combined they cut off every avenue of fixing the healers

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

And I still agree 3 and 5 work, and again that's not my job to figure out healer stuff. I will still repeat that regardless, doesn't take a healer main to know that the question posed earlier is dumb, and that there's better uses of your time though.

I'd be semi interested in the discussion if there even was one to be had. SE as I've stated rarely hand out nerfs, that's just a fact. Especially considering how this again is relating to those very rare instances of healerless clears which is nothing compared to the old times which you don't seem to want to address like #deleteMCH, P8S week 1, and HW PLD/MNK where the general public had very clear bad vibes on the undesirables. Healers aren't anywhere on that category, PF and DF are the same usual comps unless it's unsync which yeah, unsync, woohoo. I would still focus on that 3/5 and go from there, but if you wanna keep looking at this then I mean go right ahead. The curse of WAR where nobody wants to listen apparently.

You think people would learn after tank sustain didn't get nerfed in the slightest despite months of seeing a small set of people crying for it, but you do you. I'll hope healers and the jobs who have issues get their fixes though. Would be nice.

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Why is it dumb because you don't agree that people should not care if their entire role is replaced even if it is small subset of content? You are a tank player that seems to be experienced and other players have asked for your feedback on suggested changes but you willfully choose to ignore because as you said not your problem. In that case why comment at all saying something is dumb if it is not your problem?

Why not engage and offer feedback on the suggestions? What harm would it do?

As a tank player my suggestion would be to reduce our sustain and readjust our mit, possibly give us more active mit skill like TBN. Bake some more group utility back into healers that requires a degree of maintaince , and overall increase incoming damage across the board from raid bosses. I do not think damage per-se has to be touched when it comes to tanks. Though touching damage is a quick and easier fix overall.

The elephant in the room is that damage output is always dependent on player performance. You can buff healer damage output all you want, but you'll always have a subset of the healer playerbase who wants to heal! They're good at healing! You can't make them do those other things! You can apply a multiplier to zero if you like, but it's still zero at the end of the day.

I think it's fine to have a discussion around what each role brings to the table, but I think this is the wrong angle.

This is a horrible choice that makes tanks less fun rather than addressing the actual issue of healer design in the game

??? Increasing healers’ share of the total party damage punishes them for needing to heal/recover the party more than they already are.

I keep seeing this “trinity game” thing getting tossed around as if the way this game works hasn’t always amounted to dealing damage alone. You can take sustain and mitigation options away as much as you want but high level optimization in this game will always revolve around killing bosses faster (i.e. doing more damage by spending less time healing). The answer to this whole healer dilemma has always been giving healers more engaging damage rotations (NOT the same as increasing their share of damage) because, as long as healers have the ability to deal damage at all, they’ll be trying to maximize the amount of time they can spend doing that instead of healing. I’m not sure when the Healer Strike crowd lost the plot on this.

This game will never demand dynamic heal plans/have random instances of party damage because it never has and, as all of the outspoken critics of SE should know by now, the game will never meaningfully change its formula/design principles (setting aside the fact that changing the game’s fundamental design would make old content feel several orders of magnitude worse than they already do). Complaining about not needing to heal enough is like being upset that you have to shoot people in Call of Duty, you are asking for something this game will never, can never give you.

Go do MINE raiding idk what to tell you