Please don't put Wuk Lamat in the patches

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Wuk isnt the problem, it's the writers.

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And ... how do you differentiate between the two?


If Wuk is a real person, say a well known and amazing actress. But she suffered when cast into a movie with terrible screen writers than what you say may make sense

Wuk isn't a real person, she's fiction.

That means her existence IS the writing.

If the writer conceiving her character is the problem, than her character is a problem. An apple tree will give you an apple.

Like if I say the writer behind Emet selch isn't that great, the character just carried the writing ... would that make any sense?

Again, may make sense if Emet selch was a real actor, but since he's fiction, he was great because the writing was great.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

And ... how do you differentiate between the two?


If Wuk is a real person, say a well known and amazing actress. But she suffered when cast into a movie with terrible screen writers than what you say may make sense

Wuk isn't a real person, she's fiction.

That means her existence IS the writing.

If the writer conceiving her character is the problem, than her character is a problem. An apple tree will give you an apple.

Like if I say the writer behind Emet selch isn't that great, the character just carried the writing ... would that make any sense?

Again, may make sense if Emet selch was a real actor, but since he's fiction, he was great because the writing was great.

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If Wuk was written by a competent writer, not that many people would dislike her. Her personality and concept aren't the problem, it's how she was written. She could've worked as a character with the same personality concept and story beats if the writing was good.

Use the Scions as examples, they are complex and have their unique personalities during Shadowbringers and Endwalker, yet in Dawntrail they all sound and speak the same and are cardboard cutouts of themselves. The Scions aren't the problem, it's the people writing them currently. Switch the writers but keep the characters, and problem is solved.

I do agree that they should get rid of her asap though, because everyone's had enough and we're at the point that no matter how anyone writes her and how she acts, no one cares. The damage has already been done.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

If Wuk was written by a competent writer, not that many people would dislike her. Her personality and concept aren't the problem, it's how she was written. She could've worked as a character with the same personality concept and story beats if the writing was good.

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But ... you can say that for ANY characters in ANY games in ANY media, no? So unless there is a case where even a god level writer will not be able to make a certain archetype work no matter what, I don't see the point of differentiation.

Where her concept came from? The writing.

Where her personality came from? The writing.

How she was introduced? The writing.

How she was used? The writing.

How did she act? The writing.

And where the writing came from? The Writer.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

But ... you can say that for ANY characters in ANY games in ANY media, no? So unless there is a case where even a god level writer will not be able to make a certain archetype work no matter what, I don't see the point of differentiation.

Where her concept came from? The writing.

Where her personality came from? The writing.

How she was introduced? The writing.

How she was used? The writing.

How did she act? The writing.

And where the writing came from? The Writer.

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Yes, that is how it works for every character in every piece of media.
The thing is, multiple writers can write the SAME character. If you read a fanfic about a character you like from an original piece of media, and then you don't like it, do you think it's the fanfic writer's fault, or the original writer's fault? Would you say "wow, that character sucks", or "eh, this person didn't get them"?
When you watch a movie based on a book, and the characters you love from the book are acting differently, would you start thinking the character is the problem, or the movie?

That's how you differentiate character x writing. Of course the result will depend on how good the writing is, but you can do it with the SAME character. That's what that person meant and I was trying to explain it to you: the character isn't the problem.

If Wuk Lamat had the same personality and motivations, but we didn't have to talk to her 140 times and hear 7000 words about peace and happiness, she could've been a good character.
Unfortunately, our first contact with her was based on awful writing, so the immediate reaction is "we hate her, get rid of her".

Oh, another example. Alphinaud. A lot of people couldn't stand him in ARR because he was so arrogant and annoying, but then other writers took the lead, and now they managed to make him grow and change a lot of people's opinions on him. The solution wasn't to just get rid of him, was to write him better.

You both really are arguing the same direction at the end of the day. Put aside the split hairs.

Sena just doesn't have the range.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

When you watch a movie based on a book, and the characters you love from the book are acting differently, would you start thinking the character is the problem, or the movie?

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You're saying something completely different. If a fictional character exists in two different media, they are considered different character who came from one source material.

I would say that iteration of the character suck, because that particular writer sucks. This is not something news, happens all the time with Marvel/DC characters and their gazillion different adaptation from different authors. People say stuffs like Bill Finger's batman is great, or Jeb's Batman is average, most don't look at them as one or the same Batman.

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Oh, another example. Alphinaud. A lot of people couldn't stand him in ARR because he was so arrogant and annoying, but then other writers took the lead, and now they managed to make him grow and change a lot of people's opinions on him. The solution wasn't to just get rid of him, was to write him better.

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Not a good example I'm afraid. ARR's Alphinaud was arrogant and annoying has nothing to good or bad writing, it was because he's meant to be that way. Even if Ishakawa herself was his writer in ARR, I doubt his overall personality would have changed much. HW's Alphinaud exist because ARR's Alphinaud was set up to fail ... on purpose. He grow in HW because he has room to grow after ARR threw him all the way to the bottom, samething can't say about our current resident orange cat.

Also are you conflating between character's personality and quality of writing here? Not every character are meant to be love, and some will be meant to annoy you. A great character doesn't neccessary have to be a goodie two shoes or a fluffy anime cheese cake. A great character is one that manage to provoke the intended reaction from the players. I'm 99% sure ARR's Alphinaud is meant to appear arrogant and snotty, and he's meant to appear as the perfect cringy and annoying young lord, so the fact he managed to get that exact reaction from the players meant he was a great character.

With Wuk Lamat, on one hand she's also presented in a somewhat similar archetype (good personality, naive, idealistic). But on the other hand unlike Alphinaud who was being setting up fail and annoy you, WL was set up to success and be loved by the players. The fact she provoke the exact opposite reaction meant she's a bad character - not in a moral sense, but in the writing sense.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

You both really are arguing the same direction at the end of the day. Put aside the split hairs.

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Maybe we are maybe not. But I'm always up to enjoy a well meaning discussion. Feel free not to join if you don't like, but not everyone participate in a debate because they have to be right. :)

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Originally Posted by BabySneed

Bold of you assume Wuk Lamat will not be part of the Alliance Raid story

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"No, we cannot fight the Shadow Lord just yet. We must try to uNdErStAnD hIm fIrSt."

I assume patch 7.1 will be dealing with King mini-Ja and how he hates being King in Solution 9, so Wuk Lamat is almost definitely going to be there too. Outside of that I guess it depends where they go with the story- the only other hints we have for what content is coming are:

-Funny dimension hopping hourglass
-Erenville investigating the anxious animals in Shaaloni
-FF11 crossover
-Bermuda Triangle exploration zone (probably relic)

Assuming the hourglass is the main MSQ point, I'm more leaning towards Erenville's stuff being side content (maybe they'll bring the trials questline back this time since all trials were MSQ in EW) which leaves Wuk Lamat to lead us through the rest of the MSQ unless they actually remember to give the scions some personality back.

I mean, I want to be wrong- ideally I'd like them to make Erenville a Beastmaster (or just any kind of combat job) and have him as an ongoing companion/duty support NPC for content going forward since he has more character motivation to stick around than Wuk Lamat does. Maybe the animals are acting up because of some looming threat for the post patches? But that just sounds like prime Trials content, or possibly the exploration zone.

Side quests seem to say there are beasts acting up in other areas too (mainly in Yak Tel) and strange beasts start coming out of the cenotes, some of which are connected to the sea. If the animals are being agitated by some threat there then I could see those two things connecting later, but thats just my cooked up conspiracy theory lol

Hopefully they will just focus on investigating the mysteries left behind (which reflection did Alexandria came from? how did the lalafells get this thing to let them dimension hop?) and hopefully lead up to some interesting new areas for next expansion- either in Eorzea or another reflection.

That being said though, maybe having Wuk Lamat in small doses will be better than a whole uninterrupted expansion of babysitting her. And it will be broken up with other content too. As long as there's other storylines running alongside including other/new characters, I think it will be bearable at the least.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Not a good example I'm afraid. ARR's Alphinaud was arrogant and annoying has nothing to good or bad writing, it was because he's meant to be that way. Even if Ishakawa herself was his writer in ARR, I doubt his overall personality would have changed much. HW's Alphinaud exist because ARR's Alphinaud was set up to fail ... on purpose. He grow in HW because he has room to grow after ARR threw him all the way to the bottom, samething can't say about our current resident orange cat.

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Never said it was. I think you're misunderstanding and overcomplicating what I'm trying to say. It's more that, a different writer, with better ideas for him and a more well-thought development, was able to make him a more interesting character. I don't think he was meant to be as unlikable as he was during base-ARR, but that's another discussion.
And no, I do not think a character has to be a "goodie two shoes fluffy anime cheese cake" to be likable. Please don't assume things I never said.

My overall argument is just that the character isn't the problem, and getting rid of them won't solve the main issue. If you don't change the writing, even if you get rid of the character, the problem won't be solved. Even in different iterations of the same character, there still must be elements that make us identify them as THEM, thus separating them from the writer. And I honestly think that those traits that make Wuk Lamat identifiable as herself could be well used by a good writer. That's it. That means THE CHARACTER isn't the problem, but how she was written.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

You're saying something completely different. If a fictional character exists in two different media, they are considered different character who came from one source material.

I would say that iteration of the character suck, because that particular writer sucks.

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See, you just agreed with me. If you just said "the iteration of the character suck", you just separated the character from the writing, like I'm trying to tell you. You identify that character as a separate entity that was treated differently by another writer.
Do you agree that Wuk Lamat could not suck as a character if the writer were competent? It wouldn't be about changing her personality, but making her actions coherent with her motivations, giving her well developed growth and appropriate space in the narrative.

That's how you separate character from writing.
That's what I'm trying to tell you from the beginning.

My point is, getting rid of Wuk Lamat will make us breathe a little from finally being away from her after DT, but if the writers don't change, nothing will be solved long term.

Really I was just answering your "And ... how do you differentiate between the two?" over there.