7.0 DRG Update: Why replace Spineshatter with a dash? Draggons are supposed to jump.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

At the risk of repeating myself, proc based jobs used to be 1) more numerous in job ratio and 2) used to have actually a lot more rng involved.

- AST just lost all remaining rng this expansion, but even then the HW/SB version was a lot more rng based with actual control than the washed out everybody gets the same card we had in ShB/EW (with little to no control/agency over it to boot).
- BRD lost all dot proc rng in favor of a streamlined tick based repertoire system, and got "cheats" baked behind Barrage to ensure RA procs.
- DNC didn't lose rng per se but lost rng in terms of ratio to abilities, since everything new they get not only is static (DotD, Starfall, Last Step, etc) but also moved a lot of rng out of the burst window which has become a lot more static as a result with little to no triage left. Compare this to ShB burst that not only had to account for proc overwriting, but also melee range considerations...
- MCH lost all rng, where it was in reality one of the most rng DPS jobs of all in its GCD structure (with ammo agency).
- RDM is the only job that kept some manner of rng (a budget old mch ammo at home), but like DNC gets more and more fixed nukes introduced into it.
- BLM lost rng over time, which was extremely rng based in ARR, then a lot less in HW due to F4 replacing F1 spamm, and less and less in the expansions after by getting more and more control tools like sharpcast and paradox to generate those procs and guarantee them. Agency over rng is good and warranted, but not when it removes the little rng a job has left.
- MNK I guess stayed the same for the barebones ogcd rng, which I appreciate.

In short if you're a healer and loved rng, you're screwed. If you're a dps and love rng, all your options have been trimmed and you'll probably be told to just "go play BRD or DNC" even though it's shallow as it is.

---

This comes back to the devs' eternal crusade against friction when it comes to job gameplay, RNG is simply a part of it since you might get lucky with your procs or you might not and having to adjust on the fly makes it very much not smooth.

I will say that those examples of "a lot more proc based" are all a lot of individual RNG, but few of them are examples of proc-based job gameplay.

It's highlighted in how you say that RDM kept some of it's randomness, that is true, whether you get a Verstone or Verfire proc is random, and the energy income is different based on that, yes. Does your gameplay change in a nontrivial manner? No. Your rotation is a static one, with Jolt being a fallback to the procced spell if those aren't available. There is a marginal difference because of the difference in energy income, but even in just 1 minute of gameplay the proc chance is so high that randomness in production makes ~0 difference.

This is maybe what I mean: FFXIV does not have proc-based jobs. And it never really did. It had jobs with procs, but those procs never centered the gameplay around them, quite the opposite, they were glue in the gaps between the static nature of each job (and hence once those abilities got sanded, the glue could be removed). There is no job that has as gameplay rotation centered around procs or randomness. Neither did old AST btw, as much as it gets carted out as an example of "good RNG" - that's not the same as non-static-rotation gameplay.

Now of course, static rotation isn't bad. At all. It's a staple of class gameplay in MMORPGs, it's just supposed to be one of multiple. Proc-based, resource-based, variable/random, those would be the other big 3 ones.

Though to be fair old AST sometimes got close to what'd be called variable-flow or dynamic-flow, as the amount of weaves needed to "fix" your bad draw could get excessive and push other gameplay elements aside. But importantly even that was questionable because there was no "win" you could likewise pull where you get extra powerful. You could just have a mess, or not. And you wanted the 'not', with 0 exception. There was never an "Oh good, I pulled absolutely rubbish, that's awesome!" because no meaningful improvement in power output came from a "bad" pull.

They had a chance to provide this with Viper, but very actively decided against it. So I guess it's safe to say that static-rotation it is. But importantly as long as it is, I don't think job design can ever become better than this constant slow devolution of weaving in an otherwise static context as fight design needs tighter and tighter tolerances to produce further content and more and more jobs need to be added with exactly 0 niches they could fill.

(sorry, back to topic now >.>)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zykorberus

If the explanation is something along the lines of "it's easier on the devs" then it's a cop-out at the expense of the customer experience, not a fix or an update.

How else does it make sense to replace TWO charges of JUMPS which are the signature move for the job with a... (rechecks notes) ...grounded dash on a.. (and I cannot enphasize this harder) ...DRAGOON?

Who thought that was an idea that made sense and why even?

That's it. Just another feedback rant hoping enough ppl agree.

(Also, the SMN "Solar" Bahamut looks more like downgrade being a much skinnier and pokemon-looking dragon with much shorter wings and...robotic?)

---

Before the changes were i honestly thought they would just give more charges to elusive jump and add a button to it go foward

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Even Jump doesn't feel like Jump anymore.. more like a Ranged CD, which is sad.

---

It IS a Ranged OGCD. To the point Leviathan reflects damage if you use it on the wrong side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

This comes back to the devs' eternal crusade against friction when it comes to job gameplay, RNG is simply a part of it since you might get lucky with your procs or you might not and having to adjust on the fly makes it very much not smooth.

---

While the devs do make the final decision you have to keep in mind that this community complains constantly about any amount of RNG until it gets removed or severely limited. The devs aren't waking up and thinking "boy I hate RNG."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

While the devs do make the final decision you have to keep in mind that this community complains constantly about any amount of RNG until it gets removed or severely limited. The devs aren't waking up and thinking "boy I hate RNG."

---

Not only RNG. The community frequently complains about anything that might even superficially impede on MUH PAAAAARSE QQ.

Melee DPS actually having to worry about melee uptime? Naaaah, just keep pressing your rotation mindlessly.
Caster DPS actually getting interrupted by having to cast something? Oh come on, why not just make everything instant so I can keep pressing my rotation mindlessly?
More oGCDs to weave than can fit into the window covered by raid buffs? That's just unfair, combine them!
Having to weight the tradeoff between marginally more damage and loss of uptime? Can't you just remove damage from gapclosers SQEX, thinking is so haaaaaaaard. ;_;

At this point I feel that even if SQEX ever were to try improve the combat system and say, evenly spread the existing damage jobs over the four underlying archetypes of damage gameplay (static rotation, proc based, resource based, adaptable/variable), people would just implode from confusion. WDYM, this job cannot be played optimally no matter how hard I try? :')

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

While the devs do make the final decision you have to keep in mind that this community complains constantly about any amount of RNG until it gets removed or severely limited. The devs aren't waking up and thinking "boy I hate RNG."

---

Sure, these changes are because someone, at some point, complained about it.
But we have no idea if this was actually a majority opinion or 3 random people in a reddit thread, especially lately it seems to be the latter.

It still ultimately falls to the devs to determine whether a complaint is actually valid and worth or a few people being salty that they can't get their 99s.

And even when a complaint is actually valid, they tend to shoot so far past the goal almost every time that it becomes frustrating.
Instead of fixing the tiny issue within a role or a job's kit they just throw the entire thing into the trash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Sure, these changes are because someone, at some point, complained about it.
But we have no idea if this was actually a majority opinion or 3 random people in a reddit thread, especially lately it seems to be the latter.

---

It's a very, very common complaint.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

It still ultimately falls to the devs to determine whether a complaint is actually valid and worth or a few people being salty that they can't get their 99s.

And even when a complaint is actually valid, they tend to shoot so far past the goal almost every time that it becomes frustrating.
Instead of fixing the tiny issue within a role or a job's kit they just throw the entire thing into the trash.

---

As someone very salty about how DRG got butchered this expansion I agree that the devs could do much better in regard to which feedback they're listening to and how they go about implementing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CidHeiral

As someone very salty about how DRG got butchered this expansion I agree that the devs could do much better in regard to which feedback they're listening to and how they go about implementing it.

---

For me it's in particular the final part.

Because on the general idea "Yo just weaving 240 things every 2 minutes is bad design" I could not agree more. Not only because if I rote-press 3 buttons in 2.5s instead of 1, all that does is cause me carpal tunnel faster. There's no gameplay there, we're not Starcraft pro gamers, our APM is not rated by the game's commentators in the form of two Lalas after each dungeon run. There's no mental effort behind pulling the same utterly static sequence of oGCD weaves every burst window, beyond seeing some flashy animations cut off halfway in for other flashy animations that'll usually get cut off.

I'd prefer an actual fix to the issue though. A non-trivial, non-static, somewhat brain-requiring main rotation that however lives mostly if not entirely in GCD space, where oGCDs are for non-damage or self-buff elements, not actual attacks. Move all the flashy animations to those GCDs, in particular the ones with long CDs. This way they can "breathe" and actually show their animations, too. But most importantly, remove the entirely automated nature of the rotation with it's excessive oGCD weaving adding nothing to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

For me it's in particular the final part.

Because on the general idea "Yo just weaving 240 things every 2 minutes is bad design" I could not agree more. Not only because if I rote-press 3 buttons in 2.5s instead of 1, all that does is cause me carpal tunnel faster. There's no gameplay there, we're not Starcraft pro gamers, our APM is not rated by the game's commentators in the form of two Lalas after each dungeon run. There's no mental effort behind pulling the same utterly static sequence of oGCD weaves every burst window, beyond seeing some flashy animations cut off halfway in for other flashy animations that'll usually get cut off.

I'd prefer an actual fix to the issue though. A non-trivial, non-static, somewhat brain-requiring main rotation that however lives mostly if not entirely in GCD space, where oGCDs are for non-damage or self-buff elements, not actual attacks. Move all the flashy animations to those GCDs, in particular the ones with long CDs. This way they can "breathe" and actually show their animations, too. But most importantly, remove the entirely automated nature of the rotation with it's excessive oGCD weaving adding nothing to it.

---

If you're suggesting DRG should be designed this way I'd have to give a resounding no thank you, that sounds awful. If you want a new job designed this way then sure whatever.