New Shatter map... something Feels off.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

While I understand the wish for a fair match, it's not a remotely likely prospect not only because of the highly-coordinated premades you mentioned, the queue needs to also get rid of the people who do the bare minimum for their roulette exp, because those people drag down teams with their 'don't care, tryhard' attitude.

The only way we could possibly get mostly fair matches is not to completely remove premades, but to introduce a hidden rating that we get matched on so everyone in the match is of roughly the same skill level. That way, premades or not, there's a lot less fodder running around and no easy BH5 for anyone.

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Despite the fact I use it for leveling, I think there's an argument for reducing the roulette XP to make it less attractive to those who don't give a tinker's cuss. But while I dislike the presence of those who don't try, they have far less impact on a match because they are more likely to be evenly distributed and the net result is a wash.

The vast majority of FL players are not in a premade, which makes the presence of one extremely disruptive. You need a premade to counter one unless a miracle occurs and a bunch of randos identify and disrupt the threat. (This does occasionally happen.) And it essentially means the majority of us are playing in solo mode alongside a completely different form of PvP. This seems to me to be an unreasonable concession to ~ 5% of the FL player base.

Matchmaking is an interesting idea. It's complicated because different jobs generate different stats even when played well. One could reduce the wins credited to party queues. If four of you queue as a light party, you get 1/4 of a win. But I imagine that'd be less popular for the 5% than simply separating solo and party queueing.

Premades will still get BH5 rapidly even against semi-competent opposition IMO. It's a consequence of the powerful synergy of coordinated LBs as the skillset currently stands. When Olivia is doing her book club thing, for example, I saw all 4 of them get BH5 in 3 minutes. As I mentioned before, you can't simultaneously balance FL for solo players and light parties running certain comps, the synergies are too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

Making PvP less fun for everyone is a NET LOSS for the community as a whole.

-Your premades make Frontlines less enjoyable for everyone who participates.
-Your premades take away fair competition, and contest. You will either win by landslides (1/3 of the time), or not at all.
-Less people queue for PvP because you've made it less fun for everyone.
-Even less people will care about your sweaty strategies that 1% of the PvP population even cares for.
-Less people playing PvP, means less attention to PvP, which gets even less resources poured into a mode that everyone thinks is garbage.

Should I have to be "doing everything in my power" to win by employing your sweaty strategies, forming up a group of 3 other sweaty players, and farming wins for hours every single day just to have fun?

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-everyone? that seems pretty rich. I get a lot more love than hate when I'm calling and leading a team.
- No... it doesn't. There is nothing a premade does that can't be done by every other player. You can't call a competition unfair when everyone has equal access to the same things. Most Pvp communities that focus on FL don't even bother with voice chat either; it really is all in game. If more players would communicate with each other effectively they'd be able to compete.
-If it's people who don't care about the mode, than I guess that's fine. If they find something unfun, then they shouldn't play it. There's plenty of things to do in the game. There's people who get wiped and complain, and people who get wiped and want to figure out how to avoid it and how to do it themselves. The latter are the people I want to support, and there's nothing more I want to do than encourage them to get better.
-If there's a higher percentage of people that take the mode seriously, then that's great.
-I don't know how much less they could really care about the mode. They seem pretty content to put band-aids over gaping wounds.

-If you care about the outcome, then yes. Do you want to win without putting in any effort? There's plenty of content in the game to accommodate that mindset. Why are you so against playing with friends? Do you not have any that PVP? I can introduce you to several discords or CWLS where you can interact and make some. You call it "sweaty," but we have a pretty chill time. Even if you are disgusted at the idea of playing with others, you can still help your team by adding some simple macros and callouts.

-Matchmaking is a neat idea that will probably never happen. If there comes a day it gets added then great, but until then I'd like to focus on making everyone better players.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

- No... it doesn't. There is nothing a premade does that can't be done by every other player.

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Olivia, this is completely inconsistent with the conclusions you present in your guide. You explain very coherently and correctly why a premade with specific comps boosts win rate. Playing with the same group of people over hundreds of matches inevitably increases efficiency further. There is no way that four people thrown together on the same team are going to coordinate to anything close to the degree a premade will.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Olivia, this is completely inconsistent with the conclusions you present in your guide. You explain very coherently and correctly why a premade with specific comps boosts win rate. Playing with the same group of people over hundreds of matches inevitably increases efficiency further. There is no way that four people thrown together on the same team are going to coordinate to anything close to the degree a premade will.

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My point was more to say that any player can group up with friends, cordinate CDs, etc, but to expand on your comment:


You're correct, I highly suggest premades for their consistanty, but I only know of like 2 premades that exclusively run together. It's closer to a pool of 100 or so individuals that team up when they can. As long as your fulfilling the main roles of dark knight, guard break, and burst you can generally take whoever you enjoy playing with.

There's a difference between what pugs can do and what they actually do. Each alliance could take the pregame to talk about who's doing what role. I'm not talking about 4 random cooperating. I'm talking about 24 people working together. This is seen in JP where top tier commanders with permanent members only boast about a 40% win rate.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

My point was more to say that any player can group up with friends, cordinate CDs, etc, but to expand on your comment:


You're correct, I highly suggest premades for their consistanty, but I only know of like 2 premades that exclusively run together. It's closer to a pool of 100 or so individuals that team up when they can. As long as your fulfilling the main roles of dark knight, guard break, and burst you can generally take whoever you enjoy playing with.

There's a difference between what pugs can do and what they actually do. Each alliance could take the pregame to talk about who's doing what role. I'm not talking about 4 random cooperating. I'm talking about 24 people working together. This is seen in JP where top tier commanders with permanent members only boast about a 40% win rate.

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It would seem that the vast majority of FL players do not wish to team up with friends. I don't, yet I'm good at the jobs I play and am wired to be competitive. (I played a game for a living for over a decade.)

Obviously I'd be delighted if the quality of play improved, and agree with you there is plenty of room for it. But a pregame strategy discussion? 24 people working together? On NA? If you have ideas of how to get there, I'm all ears. But as we've discussed, I regard your playstyle as working against that evolution.

Have you tried shot-calling without your merry band? I'd be genuinely interested in how it pans out. Let me know if you do, please, I'll remove you from my blacklist.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

everyone? that seems pretty rich. I get a lot more love than hate when I'm calling and leading a team.

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I'm sure you do, when EVERYONE YOU PLAY WITH IS ON YOUR TEAM. I'm not going to shower you with "love and praise" because I, along with the majority of players find premades downright obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

There is nothing a premade does that can't be done by every other player.

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Yes there is. Premades often use voice chat, Just because you don't, doesn't mean that its not happening on the other 2 DC's. (It's fairly common on Primal for instance.) If that wasn't enough, you're asking a group of strangers, who don't know each other, to organize and make tactics to ward off a premade designed to wipe entire teams with salted earth, and coordinated call outs. I need not say that trying to organize random Frontlines players is like herding cats. It very RARELY works out. You yourself admit that premades are an advantage to your team, and its one the others do not have. It is not fair, and winrates alone prove that. If you're winning 50% of matches, imagine how much worse you make it for the other 2/3 of players who don't have friends to queue with, and don't know what they're doing enough to make call outs.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

If there's a higher percentage of people that take the mode seriously, then that's great.
-I don't know how much less they could really care about the mode. They seem pretty content to put band-aids over gaping wounds.

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They're going to continue to put band-aids over the gaping wounds, because why put resources into a game mode that is universally disliked? As both a Solo queue player, and a Mentor I see the attitudes firsthand towards PvP, and its universally negative. Why would they put resources into much needed QoL updates, new maps, or new modes when people have NO interest in Frontlines? You cannot deny that premade groups are harming both Frontlines as a whole, and the community at large. Players who otherwise may have given PvP a shot will go elsewhere. We've seen the consequences of the generally apathetic attitude the playerbase has with Shatter being ruined, Borderland ruins being outright removed, and us waiting 6 months just to get half hearted patches to "fix" issues that were discovered day one.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

If you care about the outcome, then yes. Do you want to win without putting in any effort? There's plenty of content in the game to accommodate that mindset. Why are you so against playing with friends? Do you not have any that PVP? I can introduce you to several discords or CWLS where you can interact and make some. You call it "sweaty," but we have a pretty chill time. Even if you are disgusted at the idea of playing with others, you can still help your team by adding some simple macros and callouts.

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I put in plenty of effort, I have a 41% winrate as a solo queue player with over 1600 frontlines matches played across my account, so don't go accusing me of wanting "a win without putting in any effort." I organize my teams full of randoms to win. I make call outs, and I leave practically every match with BH IV or BH V. I put my pound of flesh into this mode, and I play to win, I don't play for a participation trophy like you seem to be suggesting.

As for why I do not form my own Premades, or join up with my friends;

1. Dark/AST/DRG compositions aren't fun to play as, or with.
2. I'd rather play jobs I find fun, that aren't "meta", that would not fit into a typical steamroll set up.
3. I don't find steamrolling my enemies enjoyable. I want competition.
4. As you suggest, my friends don't enjoy PvP, for the reasons I've described in numerous posts. The ones that do have no interest in putting in the time that I do into PvP.

I'm not against joining any such communities, and I do consider myself open minded, but you'll find it very difficult to convince me that premading is benefical in the long run to anyone. If we want all these PvP changes, the community needs to be large enough to demand them, and not allow ourselves to be ignored, or stepped on by the PvE community that works against us more often than not.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Premades will still get BH5 rapidly even against semi-competent opposition IMO. It's a consequence of the powerful synergy of coordinated LBs as the skillset currently stands. When Olivia is doing her book club thing, for example, I saw all 4 of them get BH5 in 3 minutes. As I mentioned before, you can't simultaneously balance FL for solo players and light parties running certain comps, the synergies are too powerful.

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While I absolutely agree that premades will still get BH5 rapidly due to surprise attacks or pinches, I disagree that an alliance of equal skill is unable to deal with it. I've played, as a solo player, in a match against the dreaded DRK+RPR+DRG+DRG premade, not only did my team have no commander, we also stomped that premade so they can't even maintain their BH5.

You definitely do not need a premade to beat another premade, you just need a motivated enough team that has the skills for it. The hidden rating suggestion would help get a skilled team. Most of the wins I've gotten against an obvious premade were also silent in alliance chat with only maybe 3 calls of a direction to go towards throughout the whole match.

I also disagree that having people who don't try isn't destructive to the team. The less people you have attacking, the less chance you have of killing anyone, which heavily hurts your team's BH generation in the long run. I firmly believe that people who don't try are more destructive to your chances of winning than going against a premade.

Fair or not, the responsibility is on premades to not ruin the experience for everyone. SE has already made it abundantly clear what their position on the matter is. DRK and AST were nerfed specifically in Frontlines last patch. We used to be able to 8 stack and lost that due to the exact same complaints. They are FAR more likely to tamp down the good players than drag up the mostly casual playerbase in Frontlines. If more nerfs come or we lose 4 man stacking there is no one to blame but the few people treating the game mode like it’s ranked CC while the vast majority approach it with the seriousness of Lords of Vermilion.

It’s just the nature of the mode. From holy spamming WHM alliances, to MNKs with double pocket healers to the DRK cheese we see today - optimal strategies evolve and people who love large scale PvP play to win. The difference is that unlike before, when the mode was the domain of a dedicated fan base, it is now firmly in the hands of casual roulette players. We should expect SE to balance according.

As to whether or not the current flavor of cheese is overbearing - my experience fluctuates based on the data center. An Aether team during prime time has a decent chance of managing against a premade, with both teams often punishing particularly egregious offenders. On Crystal - I can mark the DRK, tell the team to guard when they see the mark jump to them, meteor dive the DRK when the premade runs from cover to setup the burst, push the DRK back into their team to deny pull setup, spam danger bongos macros, only to turn around and see my team got wiped by the two ASTs and DRG bursts sans the pull. It’s no wonder to me why I see certain premades data center hopping.

TLDR: As long as the mode is in the daily roulette it belongs to the casuals. Your love for large scale PvP won’t change that. SE will balance around them. Don’t make the game mode worse for yourself by taking it too seriously.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

If one of yall is willing to have a salted earth timer and a "I'm attacking now" macro you could start putting a pretty nice dent into them. (You can always look up my guide to >.<)

As for what Mawlzy said... I don't think it should be surprising that a group that wants to win consistently does in a gamemode where many don't care. I'd rather more players improve and adopt a winning mindset for a competitive game mode than breaking up the people who probably enjoy/know the most about the mode.

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I don't mind premades because i'm a pvp vet, and I think the only case where I've fallen prey to one well executed kitchen sink recently was because they had a dancer. I field command when nobody fills the role, and back them up with clear macros when they do anyway.

I tried to ask multiple times at the start of a game if people wanted to synergize some things together, never had a single reply. I offered to DRK, DRG, DNC... I even tried to ask the whole alliance if they wanted to try mass SCH just for the giggles and see how it goes. Nobody cares, and tbh, I don't mind either. I have the little fun I get in FLs by killing BH5 premade players, which offers a certain challenge and you can see immediately how they notice you as a threat and try to counter immediately. I like those little games.

All of this to say, I'm not asking for premades to be removed. The sad reality is that the skill gap is too wide and people that play for fun just get stomped by coordinated players, although to be frank, remove the kitchen sink Salted Earth and it may already alleviate a lot of discrepancies... But I'd rather die before they remove the ability to queue up with friends just because SE cannot balance salted earth there.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

You need a premade to counter one unless a miracle occurs and a bunch of randos identify and disrupt the threat. (This does occasionally happen.) And it essentially means the majority of us are playing in solo mode alongside a completely different form of PvP. This seems to me to be an unreasonable concession to ~ 5% of the FL player base.

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This is somewhat of a blanket statement. My experience has been different, and I've seen a lot of premades lose constantly because their team just didn't have favorable outcomes, notably on seal rock or onsal. I'd tend to agree on shatter though, one premade wipes a team in their safe big ice, or blocks both at least once, they get a lead that only grows and they win. It's usually how it happens.