I know ARR was cut down but it really needs more done with it.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

worked out well for ff11. that was their first mmorpg and it was story driven and its 20 years old. you hit onto something. not alot who may want to try this have played any of the franchise but that doesn't mean the devs make this cookie cutter as the rest of the mmo's out there. anyone who been with this franchise since the start will tell you its story driven and will remain story driven. the fact this is a mmo just means they spread the story out amongst patchs and expansions and not give it all in one go.

i also get your thought on "it would make sense it would play like mmorpg". however this thought process would again be for the people who have no prior history of this franchise. then they come into it and find out different and either like it or don't. doesn't mean its a flawed system. just means the company is still following its formula of story telling its known for since the very start of the franchise. i mean with media out there. if a person was curious as to how it is played and stuff. they only need to look at youtube videos, twitch streams, live youtube streams etc. its not like the information about what type of game this is is secret and hidden lol.

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I think I'm getting misunderstood here. I'm fine with game being story oriented. My point was specifically ARR and the sprout experience. In the video I linked before, there is "Play Warframe for 2 hours" achievement, which only 40% players have. That is how much time are new players willing to give to a game.

ARR is just slog and has even more boring story than Ala Mhigan part of StB, it simply doesn't represent quality other expansions have. So why couldn't we just trim ARR even more? Less MSQ and more gameplay will be closer to expected MMORPG experience. This means that players will gradually get used to cutscenes and other story elements, instead of being blasted with unrelenting stream of story that they're very likely not used to. This was why I originally quit in like 2014. I was probably not even level 10 before I gave up, game was just giving me endless stream of badly animated, non-voiced cutscenes that I didn't care about - first thing I want in new game is to check gameplay, and if I like it, I'll keep going and slowly get invested in a story, not other way around.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

The whole "Get Cheese or no Titan" questline is the kind of obtuse design I'd expect for a Relic, not the MSQ.

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So, there you are. An adventurer of no real renown, asking for information on what will be a suicide mission if you aren't good enough. At this point in the story, you are not the Warrior of Light. You are a part timer for the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, possibly a low-ranked member of a General Company and, perhaps, a dishonest braggart.

What would you do to ensure the person who asks "How do I get to Titan? Pretty please? < bats eyelids >" is worth your time? Especially since, as you learn at the end, the members of the Company of Heroes have sworn not to divulge the information to someone who is deemed unworthy by any member of the Company.

The design works. One can whine and moan about the time it takes to get through all of the story for this, but the questline moves you to locations you need to know. [For Chocobo Companions and job quests to name a few]. There were already a number of quests removed to streamline that particular part of the MSQ.

It's ok to dislike this part of the MSQ, but the arguments I've seen, such as the one to which I'm responding, are personal opinion, not specific design critiques for a ten-year-old storyline.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

So why couldn't we just trim ARR even more? Less MSQ and more gameplay will be closer to expected MMORPG experience.[ This means that players will gradually get used to cutscenes and other story elements, instead of being blasted with unrelenting stream of story that they're very likely not used to.

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This game is story-heavy and blasting them with story is giving them a good idea of what to expect for the next few hundred hours. Even after they have completed it all, whenever new content is released, every single new feature or content has story attached to it and if they can handle ARR they then they will be able to handle patch story at the max level. Maybe it is a good thing to filter out the people who can't handle this.

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I was probably not even level 10 before I gave up, game was just giving me endless stream of badly animated, non-voiced cutscenes that I didn't care about

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The animations are not great, but they are far better than many games that came before it. Of course, there were some games around ARR release that had better animations, but game animations were always not perfect and in many cases far worse. The breathing and idle animation of my character seems really good for example and that is poor in most games that I played before 2013.

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first thing I want in new game is to check gameplay, and if I like it, I'll keep going and slowly get invested in a story, not other way around.

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Opposite way round to me.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

What would you do to ensure the person who asks "How do I get to Titan? Pretty please? < bats eyelids >" is worth your time? Especially since, as you learn at the end, the members of the Company of Heroes have sworn not to divulge the information to someone who is deemed unworthy by any member of the Company.

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The issue is that you already beat Ifrit, so you already have experience taking down a primal and don't necessarily need their advice. If it was your first primal fight it would make more sense.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

This game is story-heavy and blasting them with story is giving them a good idea of what to expect for the next few hundred hours. Even after they have completed it all, whenever new content is released, every single new feature or content has story attached to it and if they can handle ARR they then they will be able to handle patch story at the max level. Maybe it is a good thing to filter out the people who can't handle this.

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Or you can just do it gradually and players will get used to it by the time they reach HW. Filtering potential customers is terrible in every way. It inevitably filters even people like me back when I tried the game for first time, and now I love the game after giving it second chance.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The animations are not great, but they are far better than many games that came before it. Of course, there were some games around ARR release that had better animations, but game animations were always not perfect and in many cases far worse. The breathing and idle animation of my character seems really good for example and that is poor in most games that I played before 2013.

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This game was released in 2013, you cannot be serious with your statement. FFXIII was released in 2009, with every animations and cutscenes many times better. GTA5, RDR, MS2, DMC4, MGR:R, just a few examples of games released before ARR with many times better cutscenes and animations overall. FFX is maybe on par, but at least that has actually animated cutscenes, not just NPCs doing emotes. And if you don't like me comparing single player games and MMORPG, then well, this is FF game first, and MMORPG second after all, so there is no problem comparing these, right?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Funny enough Ive heard other streamers actually enjoy ARR just fine and dont see it as a slog.

You know who really drives that opinion? The FFXIV community. Just like how they enjoy to harass and push other players to play the game, pay attention to the msq, and expect people to cry in various moments in the game like Haurchefaunts death, Ardbert etc and whats worse is them pushing their own opinions on the streamers with saying things like HW good, SB bad and not letting new players whom are recording their adventures some breathing room to form their own opinions.

Thats whats really happening, its the community doing what it does best; being very, very pushy.

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You know what is funny. I never heard the Stormblood is bad stuff. I got to it. Got into it and HATED it. Like it took me a year to slog my way through it because I would start new alts and play through ARR again before I would try to finish Stormblood. Now that I have finally got past Stormblood and into Shadowbringers I am really enjoying the game again.

It isn't always the community pushing new people into their modes of thought.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

if you don't like me comparing single player games and MMORPG, then well, this is FF game first, and MMORPG second after all, so there is no problem comparing these, right?

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Actually, that is one of the points the developers have stressed to us. The game can't be as good graphically because it's a multiplayer game. The other reason is that it's limited by the consoles it's on. ARR had to work on PS3.

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This game was released in 2013, you cannot be serious with your statement. FFXIII was released in 2009, with every animations and cutscenes many times better. GTA5, RDR, MS2, DMC4, MGR:R, just a few examples of games released before ARR with many times better cutscenes and animations overall.

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GTA was one of the games I was thinking of where they had actually put some effort into natural body movement, but I still don't think even that was very good then. I don't agree that it was much better than ARR, and there were many games that just couldn't pull off a natural-looking breathing system on a character like FFXIV does. Facial expressions is one of FFXIV's strengths in cutscenes.

Now it is 2023, should they go back and change it to be something as modern as Unreal 5? Maybe, but they don't usually spend a lot of time on old things. It took them 8-10 years to get round to overhauling ARR as much as they have recently and it takes development time away from the next patch. The next patch is the most important thing for them to focus on, because that makes people resubscribe and login to the game which makes them money. If they stop doing that to change ARR people will think the game isn't making content anymore.

But they are doing a graphics upgrade gradually in the background where they find the time and resources and some of it may not be complete by 7.0, because they said they would gradually upgrade some character faces over time after that. We don't have any evidence this will include animation changes, but maybe they will think about that someday.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Actually, that is one of the points the developers have stressed to us. The game can't be as good graphically because it's a multiplayer game. The other reason is that it's limited by the consoles it's on. ARR had to work on PS3.

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I fully understand that, it was just remark towards people who keep parroting that the FFXIV is FF first, MMORPG second.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

GTA was one of the games I was thinking of where they had actually put some effort into natural body movement, but I still don't think even that was very good then. I don't agree that it was much better than ARR, and there were many games that just couldn't pull off a natural-looking breathing system on a character like FFXIV does. Facial expressions is one of FFXIV's strengths in cutscenes.

Now it is 2023, should they go back and change it to be something as modern as Unreal 5? Maybe, but they don't usually spend a lot of time on old things. It took them 8-10 years to get round to overhauling ARR as much as they have recently and it takes development time away from the next patch. The next patch is the most important thing for them to focus on, because that makes people resubscribe and login to the game which makes them money. If they stop doing that to change ARR people will think the game isn't making content anymore.

But they are doing a graphics upgrade gradually in the background where they find the time and resources and some of it may not be complete by 7.0, because they said they would gradually upgrade some character faces over time after that. We don't have any evidence this will include animation changes, but maybe they will think about that someday.

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If you think that FFXIV has better facial animations than GTA 5 and a better cutscenes overall, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But I'm really not saying that we should get some A Realm Reborn: Reborn, just trim some more filler MSQ, which will also result in better ratio of gameplay to MSQ, which will be better for players that are not used to sit through so much cutscenes and they will slowly get used to them, that's all.

im all for another 30% of post arr being cut lol

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Originally Posted by Deo14

If you think that FFXIV has better facial animations than GTA 5 and a better cutscenes overall, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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I didn't mean better cutscenes, because the cutscenes are limited to not contain much action and they developed them over time to do more than just talking.

I didn't necessarily say any of it was better than GTA 5, but when I played GTA 5 at release it wasn't exactly perfect, whereas the animations in FFXIV feels smoother to me.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I didn't mean better cutscenes, because the cutscenes are limited to not contain much action and they developed them over time to do more than just talking.

I didn't necessarily say any of it was better than GTA 5, but when I played GTA 5 at release it wasn't exactly perfect, whereas the animations in FFXIV feels smoother to me.

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i tend to enjoy when people mention graphics because that don't make a game. beautiful graphics games can actually suck. some of the best games out have the worst graphics lol