Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Actually that's more what your phrasing of the question is doing, painting a skewed outcome unrealistic of this game in order to reflect the outcome you want to see. Let's just be honest about it. No reason to hide that.
EDIT: Actually, never mind. You're right, it's important that we use unrealistic extremes that no one is actually asking for in order to understand what players want and to what lengths, so I propose we add a 5th question:
5. Would you stop playing healer if every healer had no DPS buttons at all and were provided a trust AI to complete MSQ instance battles (all content otherwise remains the same, outgoing damage included). In order to complete any quests that ask you defeat an enemy, you'll need to join a party with at least 1 tank or DPS, or switch to a tank or DPS job.
Healer Survey:
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03-21-2023, 06:12 AMty_taurus
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03-21-2023, 06:50 AMSebazyNo not really. The problem is how vague the definition of a dps rotation is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Is it simply 1-2-3? That solves little and I suspect few people will support it irrespective of if they want more or less healer DPS engagement.
Or when you say 'DPS rotation on par with a DPS job', does that mean all the extra goodies that comes with said core rotation? That would be a much bigger change, but as I mentioned in my response, simply dunking a full DPS kit on a healer flat out isn't realistic and anyone with any sense is going to see that. It would just be far too many hotkeys to be manageable and if it doesn't integrate with our existing kit, it's just going to be a disjointed mess.
However, a tightly integrated DPS rotation kit that empowers and drives our healing throughput at the same time? Hell yeah sign me up for that. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Warhammer Online's Warrior Priest class was perhaps the finest MMO healer ever penned and it absolutely burns me that SE haven't had the initiative to copy that concept and adapt it to FFXIV. It would solve the lack of healer engagement in casual content. -
03-21-2023, 07:10 AMAllegorI know that's the joke but reading that question filled me with....disgust and anxiety, for lack of a better word. Please don't say such things again lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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03-21-2023, 09:59 AMRenathras/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Actually, the one thing I regret in the questions is using your wording for question 3. I don't think there should be a "would you stop playing healer if..." question, since things have to be PRETTY extreme to get people to stop playing entirely. Very few people will say that, but we shouldn't be asking, essentially "what would make you quit the game". We should be asking players "what do you want" not "what will you tolerate".
I know your argument that you want proven is that people will TOLERATE it, as if that's a good thing, but it really isn't. It shouldn't be a matter of seeing how far we can push and abuse players and them not quit. We should be seeing what they actually want.
We probably could ask the question "Would you stop playing Healer if every Healer had the same rotations they have right now". That's not an extreme position. "Would you stop playing Healer if every Healer had only one damage ability", That's the extreme position. "no DPS at all and did trust AI for MSQ"? That's your equivalent to a DPS rotation? Good god, man! Get some perspective.
Strictly speaking, it means "like any of the DPS Jobs". Granted, there's some spread there, but generally we'd be talking 8+ buttons focused on damage that need to be used in a fairly set order to do good damage. SMN is the low end of that, and has a rotation somewhat equivalent in overall complexity to Tank rotations. Some people even have said this, and "Tank or SMN rotation" is something people tend to be saying that they wouldn't mind WHILE saying they don't want a DPS Job level rotation. So people seem to get the point and be answering with "I wouldn't want THAT, but I would want THIS" which is what I'm actually looking at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
I do think it's funny how many people point to SMN as being like the Tanks, but at least people seem to understand the spirit of the question and are answering it.
If someone's saying "I don't want a DPS Job rotation but I want a Tank level rotation", I'm marking them down for Tank level rotation.
I've even pointed out (so I won't yet again) the 6 categories answers are falling into.
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In Ty's case, specifically, I think it was to generate a specific answer. He wants a question as I said above to be "what will you tolerate" not "what do you want", which is the reason for his original question wording. I'm much more interested in what people want, but the question exists for what will they tolerate.
Moreover, question 3 already achieves this purpose. If the claim truly is "just a few more damage buttons", then that's covered under question 3. Note I didn't include "no damage buttons", "fewer damage buttons", or "the same amount of damage buttons as today", either. So I'm not picking favorites.
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As for your example, I've never played Warhammer Online, but I vaguely remember the RIFT Chloromancer being somewhat fun, though I never did high end content with it. I think that's how SGE should have been designed. Despite people saying how the Tanks all have the same playstyle, most people recognize that GNB is more involved than the other three with a lot of extra DPS rotational abilities. Admittedly, more when it came out (the Gnashing Fang combo used too be 3 separate buttons, for example), but the idea seemed to be a fairly obvious "Make a Melee DPS, remove a few of the extra oGCDs we'd have on a DPS and put Tank oGCDs in their place." I feel like, at one point in development, they were probably thinking about something like that for SGE but changed their mind part-way through. Abilities like Soteria and to a point Pepsis and Zoe and Krasis make more sense when you're thinking from the perspective of "We'll be doing a DPS rotation and just have some Healer oGCDs and backup GCD heals in case of emergencies."
At some point, it seems like they decided to back off of so much reliance on Kardia and a damage rotation and slim it down, with Toxicon and Plegma being vestigial hints at something else that once was.
FFXIV's combat system is too rigid is the problem.
They could give SGE a BLM rotation with just Kardia splash healing and some oGCD supplemental heals but balance it to do the same damage as WHM, and the playerbase would have a conniption. FFXIV's combat system and balance is finely enough tuned (not perfectly balanced - as all things... - but still pretty finely balanced compared to something like WoW) and works under fairly tight Enrage checks (in entry level gear) and stuff, so they run into the problem that they can't allow Healers that put in "more work" to do more damage, but then if they put in a Healer Job that feels like it has to work harder for the same outcome, fewer people play it (this is being cited a lot in the survey about why people don't play AST over WHM), and the people playing it start demanding more damage output because they're doing more work/effort (even if they literally asked to be given that "more work" to do), so SE is damned if they do and damned if they don't.
It's why I think Misshapen Chair hit the nail on the head in his video where he said people need to just accept that the reward for doing "more work" is you "have fun and aren't bored to tears", and to "stop crying about a whole 2% dps variance". And yet the players will do so, and SE knows they will do so. It's probably why AST is going to get semi-lobotomized because it's the least played.
Me personally, I think they should make the harder one and if people complain, just tell them "This is what was asked for, and if it's not for you, then don't play that Job". Because I think there are players that want a DPS Caster "support healer". Many may want it to do DPS Caster levels of damage, but tough luck, wrong game, play Pantheon when it comes out or something, I guess? Let the people that want to push DPS buttons more have their fun, since there absolutely are some that just want that and would be content with not doing any more damage than WHM since they'd be having fun anyway.
SE just doesn't want to deal with the conniption fit of "I have to do so much more work so I should be rewarded with more damage", so they simply avoid the whole thing. And as many people as say they'd be happy just to have that DPS rotation, SE knows good and well that these forums would explode with people complaining about how their "more work" wasn't being "rewarded".
It's the same reason I think Roe's wrong about the more DPS buttons for all Healers and people who don't want to can just "not use them". Either the damage gap will be big enough those people would be harassed and possibly fail Enrage checks, or the additional damage would have to be so minimal for pressing the extra buttons that the people doing it would then complain their more work isn't being rewarded enough. -
03-21-2023, 10:49 AMSebazySorry to nitpick on a particular point, but I'm falling asleep :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I could be out of touch here, but I don't really think that the 2% damage variance is the issue with AST, and it's certainly not it's healing kit as that's top tier.
The problem is the complexity and APM load it faces during it's 2 minute burst window coupled with how punishing it is not only for you, but for your entire group if/when you mess up as it cost you not one but two burst windows so you could get back in alignment with the group. I cannot stress enough, doing ASTs 2 minute burst sequence is somewhat demanding in casual content like 24 mans... However in Savage and upwards? It's a whole different level, mostly because you have to do said burst sequence whilst also watching mechanics and often running around and repositioning as well. P4S part 1 was the absolute poster child for this. Curtain Call forced you to run large distances whilst also having to watch both the arena and the rest of your group around you and yes, our 2 minute burst was slap bang right in the middle of both curtain calls.
I really don't think I can emphasise how unenjoyable a combination that burst window with that mechanic was for me. And that was 1 out of many examples.
I'd merrily play AST again if it wasn't dogpiling all of it's oGCDs and targeting stuff into such a tight little window every 2 minutes. But as is, my opinion and seemingly that of many others is that it's just miserable to play for hours at a time in high end content, hugely unrewarding in casual content if you haven't got people worth buffing and downright bad in solo content. -
03-21-2023, 10:50 AMty_taurus
It's still quite early on the surveys over from general, but here are some results from them so far...
Here are the averages for job satisfaction from first to last place:
Solo
1st: SGE - 3.8/10
2nd: WHM - 2.9/10
3rd: SCH - 2.85/10
4th: AST - 2.1/10
Casual Content
1st: SGE - 4.8/10
2nd: WHM - 4.2/10 (tie)
2nd: SCH - 4.2/10 (tie)
4th: AST - 3.4/10
Challenging Content
1st: WHM - 5.8/10
2nd: SCH - 5.6/10
3rd: SGE - 4.75/10
4th: AST - 4.3/10
Overall Satisfaction
1st: SGE - 5.6/10
2nd: WHM - 5.4/10
3rd: SCH - 5.2/10
4th: AST - 4.4/10
Most Desired Additions
WHM - More attacking actions (83.3%) - Runner-up: more utility/mitigation (79.2%)
SCH - More attacking actions (90.5%) - Runner-up: more offensive support (61.9%)
AST - More offensive support (78.9%) - Runner-up: more attacking actions (68.4%)
SGE - More attacking actions (87.5%) - Runner-up: more utility/mitigation (35.7%)
WHM
SCH
AST
SGE
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03-21-2023, 11:00 AMty_taurusAnd you believe "would you stop playing healer if they had an average of about 29 actions related to DPS (the average amount of hotbar actions on the DPS jobs) AND still have around 13-15 more actions for healing and mitigation" is a question that "has perspective"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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03-21-2023, 11:31 AMRenathrasOh no, it's not talking about AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
It's saying "Suppose we gave SGE a BLM level rotation and it healed with just oGCDs and Kardia. But also did the same damage and healing of WHM. Many players would play it (because they want more DPS rotation), but then complain that they aren't being rewarded with a higher output.
I think SE just doesn't want to deal with that.
No, that question wouldn't "have perspective".Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
...which is why that wasn't the question asked. Drop the hyperbole, please.
"BUT THIS IS WHAT DPS JOB ROTATION MEANS!!!"
No, DPS Job rotation means what I said above, 8+ abilities related to damage, with a timing and sequence they must be used in to do good damage. You REALLY need to stop approaching anything anyone opposed to you says with "What's the WORST possible way I can interpret this..."
EDIT:
Have you only posted these here, or also on Reddit?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Also, how do these compare to other role results so far? -
03-21-2023, 12:07 PMty_taurusI do not understand how anyone would interpret “having a rotation on the level of a DPS job” as only 8 actions. That’s what tanks have, DPS have significantly more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And several responders on that thread also pointed out how unrealistic that was because of the action total, so clearly the wording of that question is misleading.
Someone else posted a link of that thread on Reddit before I did. They just posted the link to the official forum thread where I put those surveys though.
The other jobs are also getting responses. Paladin, Dark Knight and Summoner have about as many responses as Sage, like 14-18 responses so far. Other jobs have less. I’m on my phone so I don’t have an easy way to share specifics. Paladins mostly split between 1s and 7s on the rework, but is overall probably in the 6-8/10 range on ratings. Summoner is probably around a 6-7/10 on its scores roughly, a few 9s/10s but a lot that are between 1-6. Around 42% say EW is the best Summoner, but the other 58% is split evenly between SB and ShB. Dark Knight is probably closer to 7-8 on its scores, and it seems more positive, but around 88% prefer HW and SB Dark Knight. Darks arts is referenced in the comments a lot as needing to return. -
03-21-2023, 02:30 PMForsakenRoe
tbh I can't even think of a DPS class that has sub-10 'damage related actions', it's their whole schtick, doing damage, so of course when someone says 'a rotation and button count on par with a DPS job' they are referring to 15 buttons at the absolute minimum. Take BRD, it has 2 DOTs, a button that refreshes both, three buttons for stances (that, if on a WHM, could be one button that 'cycles to next elemental stance' or whatever, 1 button), pitch perfect, bloodletter, Empyreal arrow, Refulgent for procs, Heavy shot for spam, Raging strikes for more damage, Barrage for 'hit many time', BV for raid utility, Coda for more raid utility, Apex arrow/Blast arrow for gauge interactivity. That's 16 by my count, and that's not including AOE specific stuff. We're not asking for that though, because you cant fit all of THAT, and the healing tools, onto one hotbar.
So instead we ask for tank parity because their role is 'does damage on the side' too. DRK has 123, Bloodspiller, Edge, Carve, Shadowbringer, Living Shadow, Delirium, Salted Earth, Blood Weapon, am I missing one? maybe so we'll add one, just as a buffer. That's 12, including their 123 as separate keybinds. On a healer, we can do away with that, and make it a regular 1 spam (since combos don't work so well for casters), and everything else is situational things, dropping us to 10. 10 for ST damage and 20 for healing sounds like a fair ask, surely? Doubly so if we are including stuff like Chain Strat as a 'damage keybind', as we did with BV or Radiant Coda. But atm, SGE has Dosis, Eukrasia (to access the DOT), Toxicon, Phlegma. Just four. It's a tragedy. And if 'oh thats too much room for ST cos how do you AOE' then get creative and make some stuff work on AOE as well as ST, like how Shadowbringer or Doubledown are used for both AOE and ST.
Just look how neatly presented these numbers are, I love it, it's so easy to look at something and see 'oh, the overwhelming majority (from this admittedly early sampling) are saying SGE needs more attack moves', and there's no way to try and wrangle an 87% rate into 'nah actually what they mean by 'attack moves' is 'attacking the lack of HP the party has' so give them a second charge of Pneuma'Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus