Inconsistencies with the sundering (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by SannaR

The ancients would have needed to know that the 1st summoning of Zodiark had actually done the job and not have delayed the Final Days. It took a giant crystal formed over 12,000 years turned into the form of various primals to get a ship to the edge of the universe. Remember the only person we know for certain that knew about Meteion by the time the Final Days started was Venat.

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Yes but that still doesn't preclude the ancients devising a plan to get to the edge of the universe. It would probably take a lot of effort and time but if their entire existence depended on it, it might be the course of action that they choose. Also, it's not entirely impossible for venat to confront emet-selch, hythlodaeus, and hermes with the information that she gleaned from the warrior of light's visit to their time period. Of course this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but that's an idea that's being entertained in this thread.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Well now I'm confused because it says that "Dynamis is a far weaker form of energy, and is almost completely nullified by Aether in equal quantities." They don't interact with each other so to speak but they can cancel each other out according to the game. Here's a link to the website that I'm getting my information from https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dynamis

Theoretically this means that a ton of aether could blast meteion away because dynamis can be completely nullified and cancelled out by aether even in equal quantities. Also you raise another good point. Hydaelyn, using the logic that aether nullifies dynamis, and if she was able to, could've gone out into space and killed meteion too. That would've made one hell of a cutscene.

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Problem number one is that you're reading the wiki. It's been known to be incorrect before and even on that page mentions things that have never been confirmed as if it's fact. Unless I missed something somewhere, there's been no mention that the DNC quest had to do with dynamis specifically and that's just theories. Those quests existed before the writers even conceptualized dynamis as being a thing that exists.

Ultimately through the story we're led to believe that for whatever reason they can't just blow Meteion away with aether. I'm not even sure what the point of arguing over it is because the writers who made up how aether and dynamis work can just make up anything on the spot to justify the story we got. If it was possible, we or someone else would've done it. The Ancients couldn't do anything at all themselves except to stall it with a shield and even if they flew to meet Meteion, the unshielded Ancients would get Final Days'd again. If Zodiark flew away to fight Meteion, then the unshielded planet would get Final Days'd again. If aether could smack Endsinger down, Hydaelyn would've just left and swatted her like a fly.


And again with the Ancients doing dynamis, people keep saying there's examples of it, but no one has actually pointed out where in an instance that is actually described as dynamis use, while the story itself outright states they just can't do it. Hermes was able to make something that can handle dynamis in the same way that humans can make an airplane but they can't expect to fly by themselves. As far as the Elpis flowers, all they did was react to Hermes' state of emotion and change color.

Ok let's go over some of these points then:

---- "Why did Hydaelyn sunder herself? (The Watcher mentions that she did.) Are there mini-hydaelyns in the shards? Why then did she get weaker with each rejoining?"-----

I dont think its directly stated that there are 14 full blown Hydaelyns and Zodiarks. All reflections are bounded by their singular entity, with the Source being its core. There are remnants of themselves within each shard though as seen from the 13th that their moon seemed to house the same prison as our moon's Zodiark perhaps? but I feel 6.4 will hopefully bring light into whats actually going on. Until then, there's only one Hydaelyn and one Zodiark, and they were all bound by the 14 reflections of their planet that glued them together. Which also meant that everytime a rejoining happened, Zodiark grew in power and thus Hydaelyn grew weaker as the seal was slowly being broken (since she used all that power to both sunder and maintain the primal in the seal)

-----"If the sundered weren't capable of, or didn't chose to save the star, wouldn't the refugees in the moon ship also be susceptible to the song after Zodiark was killed? And where was there to go? What kind of back up plan is that?"-----

It was a gamble on a desperate situation in which she made contingency plans in the events if x happens then y can happen. Obviously it was a risk, but when faced against certain doom, you really have no other options if your main plans fail.

------"If the ancients couldn't manipulate dynamis, how did Hermes create Metion? Why did the elpis flowers react to their emotions? How did Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus use creation magic in Ultima Thule to not only make an entire field of elpis flowers, but also make the liveable environment permanent so the scions could come back? What part of manipulating dynamis were they incapable of, that only the sundered could do?"-----

We dont know (or if we will ever know) the specifics behind Meteion's creation; at best I can theorize that Hermes who somehow became aware of dynamis energy created a being whom happen to be as aether-less as possible to be able to use this energy. After all Meteion was an experiment of this at the end of the day. Its like how we can create tools to do things we normally arent capable of doing. Elpis flowers react from sensing basic emotion and not the other way around. Hermes didnt directly control the flowers. Same can be said with Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus when they conjured Elpis flowers with creation magicks and brought the Scions and forged the path with the WoL's dynamis, which they were ultimately the ones to actually pull the feat off and not them. So basically in a nutshell they cant conjure that energy on their own due to their abundance of aether in their bodies. All examples showcasing this has always been an outside source of the energy.

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Originally Posted by PeaTearGriffin

Yes but that still doesn't preclude the ancients devising a plan to get to the edge of the universe. It would probably take a lot of effort and time but if their entire existence depended on it, it might be the course of action that they choose. Also, it's not entirely impossible for venat to confront emet-selch, hythlodaeus, and hermes with the information that she gleaned from the warrior of light's visit to their time period. Of course this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but that's an idea that's being entertained in this thread.

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She wouldn't want to let Hermes know cause then he would know that he altered people's memories. That he had set into motion his test on if mankind is worthy enough to exist. He is a wild card. Hythlodaeus isn't part of the convocation and their only part of all of this is to choose to become part of Zodiark during the 1st sacrifice. They still would need to figure out a way to either A use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or B create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them. Would an ancient or a familiar know how to get pass various blocks Meteion puts in place? What the story shows is that the majority didn't want to move on and deal with their grief. It's why the ignored third sacrifice was the line in the sand. They summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and then once more to give the planet a jump start. The 3rd was to release at least the 1st sacrifice with other entities that held souls. You know the things they felt should always find their way back to the Aetherial Sea. If Pandeamonium has shown us anything the Ancients didn't do such a great job at handling strong emotions. Just cut it off if you can't ignore and bury it. Take some joy er I mean conform harder.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

She wouldn't want to let Hermes know cause then he would know that he altered people's memories. That he had set into motion his test on if mankind is worthy enough to exist. He is a wild card. Hythlodaeus isn't part of the convocation and their only part of all of this is to choose to become part of Zodiark during the 1st sacrifice. They still would need to figure out a way to either A use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or B create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them. Would an ancient or a familiar know how to get pass various blocks Meteion puts in place? What the story shows is that the majority didn't want to move on and deal with their grief. It's why the ignored third sacrifice was the line in the sand. They summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and then once more to give the planet a jump start. The 3rd was to release at least the 1st sacrifice with other entities that held souls. You know the things they felt should always find their way back to the Aetherial Sea. If Pandeamonium has shown us anything the Ancients didn't do such a great job at handling strong emotions. Just cut it off if you can't ignore and bury it. Take some joy er I mean conform harder.

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Its the biggest downside of living in a utopia, which Amaurot and the Ancient world was. It's why there's always lessons about perfectionism and living in total bliss is such a criticized concept, which numerous works of fiction have dabbled into its implementation and FFXIV is no different.

I kind of don’t like Hydaelyn too.
But I think SE really wanted to portray her as a parallel to real life religions or even Christianity deity, where the questions of “why God allows suffering” often arise, and that only through suffering can mankind find the true face of God.

Similarly, Hydaelyn sundered the world so that mortals can build up the proper strength to overcome adversity. She did not actively action or intervene in any meaningful way because she’s a deity.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its the biggest downside of living in a utopia, which Amaurot and the Ancient world was. It's why there's always lessons about perfectionism and living in total bliss is such a criticized concept, which numerous works of fiction have dabbled into its implementation and FFXIV is no different.

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Definitely. Emet and many others show the presundered world as a utopia that didn't allow for individuality. The only outlet we know of came from their creations. Some of those being apex predators. And yet we knew there were cracks in it. After all why have an office who's entire role is to go out and deal with the ever day person's problems. Or an office that's all about keeping order? We don't know what kind of art they had even though we know that there was a convocation seat that was in charge of it. Sure there were others who had feelings that Hermes expressed, but they didn't seem to be as bothered by it. If a convocation member can lopp off a part of themselves to get rid of negative emotions and only two people raise a brow at it...

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

As I wrote on page 1 here.

"If the ancients couldn't manipulate dynamis, how did Hermes create Metion? Why did the elpis flowers react to their emotions? How did Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus use creation magic in Ultima Thule to not only make an entire field of elpis flowers, but also make the liveable environment permanent so the scions could come back? What part of manipulating dynamis were they incapable of, that only the sundered could do?"

Clearly they can manipulate and interact with dynamis as shown in those notable examples.

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It is explicitly stated by Hermes during the WoL's time in Elpis that the aetheric makeup of the ancients is far too dense for them to be able to manipulate dynamis. This explains how sundered souls, which are 1/14th the aetheric density are capable of using limit break along with other examples of dynamis manipulation such as the Song of Oblivion in the BRD questline. He also stated that the entire universe is approximately composed of around 67% dynamis; meaning it stretches out to just about every corner of the existing universe.

Dynamis being an energy source is governed by emotions. What this explains is that while the ancients could not manipulate Dynamis at will, that does not mean it does not react to their emotions. Hence, the Elpis flowers changing colors. Elpis flowers are created by the use of aether, not dynamis. And the same goes for sustaining the hospitable environment on Ultima Thule. That is all aetheric and an essential component in thwarting Meteion's plans who bends Dynamis to her own will.

As for Meteion's creation, iirc she is still comprised of aether. It is just extremely faint. Emet Selch could have easily killed her with a snap of his finger, but there were a couple of things that stopped him from doing so. He wanted to hear her report, ascertain her cause, and became aware of her sisters; but when he was done with all that, Hermes intervened. He then sacrificed his time and memory in order to create an opportunity for the WoL and Venat to escape Ktisis Hyperboreia.

It's been a year since I've done all this, so some stuff is fuzzy. But yeah.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Problem number one is that you're reading the wiki. It's been known to be incorrect before and even on that page mentions things that have never been confirmed as if it's fact.

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We at least know that the wiki is correct on aether nullifying dynamis because Hermes says to the Wol, Venat, Emet, and Hythlodaeus in one of the cutscenes on Elpis: "As you know, Aether, in essence, negates dynamis." So we at least know for certain that is true.

sauce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSOzhX7-d64
2:22:36

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Ultimately through the story we're led to believe that for whatever reason they can't just blow Meteion away with aether.

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I personally didn't hear or see that written anywhere during the msq but if that dialogue exists I'd sure like to read up on it.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I'm not even sure what the point of arguing over it is because the writers who made up how aether and dynamis work can just make up anything on the spot to justify the story we got. If it was possible, we or someone else would've done it. The Ancients couldn't do anything at all themselves except to stall it with a shield and even if they flew to meet Meteion, the unshielded Ancients would get Final Days'd again. If Zodiark flew away to fight Meteion, then the unshielded planet would get Final Days'd again. If aether could smack Endsinger down, Hydaelyn would've just left and swatted her like a fly.

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I didn't really see this as an argument but rather a discussion on what other paths the game could've taken. It's like you said yourself "the writers can just make up anything on the spot to justify the story we got" which leaves the possibility of different solutions to the story. A vessel with an aether shield that prevents the ancients from becoming affected by dynamis as they travel to the edge of the universe; technology that can hold tremendous amounts of Zodiark's aether so zodiark doesn't have to be physically present to slay meteion and he can just hang back on etheirys to keep the shield going, and other alternate endings. If aether could be used on Endsinger then hydaelyn could definitely kill her as well and I can see that being a badass ending as well.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

She wouldn't want to let Hermes know cause then he would know that he altered people's memories. That he had set into motion his test on if mankind is worthy enough to exist. He is a wild card. Hythlodaeus isn't part of the convocation and their only part of all of this is to choose to become part of Zodiark during the 1st sacrifice. They still would need to figure out a way to either A use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or B create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them. Would an ancient or a familiar know how to get pass various blocks Meteion puts in place? What the story shows is that the majority didn't want to move on and deal with their grief. It's why the ignored third sacrifice was the line in the sand. They summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and then once more to give the planet a jump start. The 3rd was to release at least the 1st sacrifice with other entities that held souls. You know the things they felt should always find their way back to the Aetherial Sea. If Pandeamonium has shown us anything the Ancients didn't do such a great job at handling strong emotions. Just cut it off if you can't ignore and bury it. Take some joy er I mean conform harder.

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Still everything you said doesn't make it impossible (in an alternate ending for the story) for venat to change her decision to confront all three, especially under extenuating circumstances, or for the ancients to figure out a way to either "use a bunch of aether to travel to the far reaches of the universe or create beings capable of manipulating dynamis while also not knowing what Meteion would throw at them." Yes there are many hurdles to accomplishing these things but they are not completely impossible. Like I said this would be a major deviation from the game's actual story but part of the purpose of this thread is to discuss alternate paths for the game's story.