i'm sick and tired of the excuse for not having unique or varied jobs

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Honestly, this whole meta thing is asinine and an easy out for them to just ruin the classes. Hyperbolic? Maybe.

You could just make your own PF or play with your friends, you know, like people do now?

As long as every class, in theory, is capable of dealing damage to clear something, then that's good enough. Everything doesn't have to play the same to accomplish this.

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That works fine if everyone in the party is a top notch player. But most people arent perfect at the game with that it can potentially be only small margins that decide between clearing and not clearing. So depending on how much balance is skewed (if given up for strict job uniqueness) you will find that many PFs will not want you and your own PFs will struggle to fill. Even those that fill but fail to clear might have cleared if you had played a better job. It's not a fun time to have to consider that.

Then get good?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

That works fine if everyone in the party is a top notch player. But most people arent perfect at the game with that it can potentially be only small margins that decide between clearing and not clearing. So depending on how much balance is skewed (if given up for strict job uniqueness) you will find that many PFs will not want you and your own PFs will struggle to fill. Even those that fill but fail to clear might have cleared if you had played a better job. It's not a fun time to have to consider that.

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Except a bad player is a bad player and them playing meta or not generally isn't going to make a difference between clearing and not. IMO I feel the real reason meta became a thing was because of ppl looking for an excuse to blame the game to cover up their own lack of skill, ability, or general awareness. Kind of the same as those people on FPS games that insist the people in game destroying them must be using hacks, and aimbot, etc...

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Except a bad player is a bad player and them playing meta or not generally isn't going to make a difference between clearing and not. IMO I feel the real reason meta became a thing was because of ppl looking for an excuse to blame the game to cover up their own lack of skill, ability, or general awareness. Kind of the same as those people on FPS games that insist the people in game destroying them must be using hacks, and aimbot, etc...

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Meta is always a thing, has always been a thing and will always be a thing.

Like, say, (if you somehow didn't know this already) most people doing raids always go out of their way to cheese everything that's possible to be cheesed, since they just want to get to the end as quickly and easily as possible, so they can roll the dice on the ol' treadmill goodies. The content itself is irrelevant, since the shiny at the end is the goal, so the faster and as reliably as possible they can get there, the better.

A bad player is a bad player, but shoehorning everyone into the same mold just because they're afraid of "wasting time" (hilarious that, since they're playing a game) and failure is just dumb.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

A bad player is a bad player, but shoehorning everyone into the same mold just because they're afraid of "wasting time" (hilarious that, since they're playing a game) and failure is just dumb.

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And as everyone knows that's the job's fault, not the players' faults!

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Originally Posted by Saraide

That works fine if everyone in the party is a top notch player. But most people arent perfect at the game with that it can potentially be only small margins that decide between clearing and not clearing. So depending on how much balance is skewed (if given up for strict job uniqueness) you will find that many PFs will not want you and your own PFs will struggle to fill. Even those that fill but fail to clear might have cleared if you had played a better job. It's not a fun time to have to consider that.

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I feel like this is defeatist in a way? Nobody really expects 'perfect at the game', just do enough to clear the content. You can clear off a ton of people having grey and greens (lowest and 2nd lowest grade parse) and I know this as a fact from experience; being the guy who was 'TeRrIbLe' and being a guy who 'CaRrIeD' from having a look at that oNe WeBsItE.

I really wish they'd implement a Stone, Sky, Sea check box in PF, so that even if, hypothetically, they made things unique again, you could know right away that people joining are capable of doing the damage necessary. Sure, you will be excluded from these parties if you don't meet that check; but then focus on trying to improve or just make a PF with expectations you define.

It feels like they are homogenizing everything and taking everything away because people don't want to try to improve for any level of content; be it low level, high, or end game.

Is it unfair to ask people to try and get better by the way?

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I feel like this is defeatist in a way? Nobody really expects 'perfect at the game', just do enough to clear the content. You can clear off a ton of people having grey and greens (lowest and 2nd lowest grade parse) and I know this as a fact from experience; being the guy who was 'TeRrIbLe' and being a guy who 'CaRrIeD' from having a look at that oNe WeBsItE.

I really wish they'd implement a Stone, Sky, Sea check box in PF, so that even if, hypothetically, they made things unique again, you could know right away that people joining are capable of doing the damage necessary. Sure, you will be excluded from these parties if you don't meet that check; but then focus on trying to improve or just make a PF with expectations you define.

It feels like they are homogenizing everything and taking everything away because people don't want to try to improve for any level of content; be it low level, high, or end game.

Is it unfair to ask people to try and get better by the way?

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I dont mean to come off defeatist. I dont want to give up balance for uniqueness, there needs to be uniqueness with balance preserved.

We are arguing from the current level of job balance. Right now it is absolutely on the players, not the jobs if a group can or cant clear. The most we had was clearing current savage week 1 with a paladin would have been really dicey.

It's completely fair to ask people to try and get better. I just dont want job choice to become part of that question.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I feel like this is defeatist in a way? Nobody really expects 'perfect at the game', just do enough to clear the content. You can clear off a ton of people having grey and greens (lowest and 2nd lowest grade parse) and I know this as a fact from experience; being the guy who was 'TeRrIbLe' and being a guy who 'CaRrIeD' from having a look at that oNe WeBsItE.

I really wish they'd implement a Stone, Sky, Sea check box in PF, so that even if, hypothetically, they made things unique again, you could know right away that people joining are capable of doing the damage necessary. Sure, you will be excluded from these parties if you don't meet that check; but then focus on trying to improve or just make a PF with expectations you define.

It feels like they are homogenizing everything and taking everything away because people don't want to try to improve for any level of content; be it low level, high, or end game.

Is it unfair to ask people to try and get better by the way?

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No it's not however you do misunderstand how Meta works or chose to misrepresent it. Low to mid end players don't actively read the data - they just see the absolutes. Let's hypothetically assume that Summoner isn't considered a Meta Job due to lesser power compared to Black Mage and Red Mage as far as speed is concerned. It would be ni surprise that most PF would simply soft ban Summoner regardless of how good the person playing it is on the basis of "Not risking it" even if the actual difference would be miniscule. When imbalance and Meta start taking root you'll basically soft lock half of the jobs from content.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

No it's not however you do misunderstand how Meta works or chose to misrepresent it. Low to mid end players don't actively read the data - they just see the absolutes. Let's hypothetically assume that Summoner isn't considered a Meta Job due to lesser power compared to Black Mage and Red Mage as far as speed is concerned. It would be ni surprise that most PF would simply soft ban Summoner regardless of how good the person playing it is on the basis of "Not risking it" even if the actual difference would be miniscule. When imbalance and Meta start taking root you'll basically soft lock half of the jobs from content.

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I don't intend to misrepresent the meaning, I'm just going off how it was always portrayed to me and my understanding of it. Sorry!

Is there a reason that people aren't getting soft locked from parties currently then? Some jobs fall into that miniscule difference in damage from the next tier up, but I've never heard of people being excluded for that recently. I believe that WAS a big deal during stormblood due to certain classes not having certain types of mitigation or not matching groups that gave damage types bonuses. I'm by no means advocating for a return to those types of things, but just want classes to actually feel different. For context, I mainly play tank, so you might be able to see where Im coming from on this end. Different in what way? I can't really define that, but I do want them to not feel so samey.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I don't intend to misrepresent the meaning, I'm just going off how it was always portrayed to me and my understanding of it. Sorry!

Is there a reason that people aren't getting soft locked from parties currently then? Some jobs fall into that miniscule difference in damage from the next tier up, but I've never heard of people being excluded for that recently. I believe that WAS a big deal during stormblood due to certain classes not having certain types of mitigation or not matching groups that gave damage types bonuses. I'm by no means advocating for a return to those types of things, but just want classes to actually feel different. For context, I mainly play tank, so you might be able to see where Im coming from on this end. Different in what way? I can't really define that, but I do want them to not feel so samey.

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It happened in this tier a little bit with paladin early on.