Honest question for people dissatisfied with WHM:

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03-30-2022, 11:55 PM
IceBlueNinja

With this or any game, people will be people, you can make all kind of changes but you will have one group who likes it, one group who dont and the middle ones that is 50 50 on it. All in all people are playing a game for how they enjoy it not for the enjoyment of others unless maybe family or friend but for sure not strangers.

I dont believe it has to do with people being lazy or having no skill. I can rant forever how i want stormblood ast back and it wont happen but for those that still play ast now still loves it I cant be upset at them for it can I?

Ast was so much more tactical and fun for me in stormblood now to me it does feel like a lazy more slightly better whm. it totally lost its lure even though its still in the good ratings and I simply just moved on to sage. Not arguing or anything just being general =)
03-31-2022, 12:33 AM
Silver-Strider

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

With this or any game, people will be people, you can make all kind of changes but you will have one group who likes it, one group who dont and the middle ones that is 50 50 on it. All in all people are playing a game for how they enjoy it not for the enjoyment of others unless maybe family or friend but for sure not strangers.

I dont believe it has to do with people being lazy or having no skill. I can rant forever how i want stormblood ast back and it wont happen but for those that still play ast now still loves it I cant be upset at them for it can I?

Ast was so much more tactical and fun for me in stormblood now to me it does feel like a lazy more slightly better whm. it totally lost its lure even though its still in the good ratings and I simply just moved on to sage. Not arguing or anything just being general =)

Yeah but there wasn't a 100 page thread titled "Have you quit healing" in ARR or HW. That trend only started in SB when they started pruning skills (or in WHM's case by being shafted by the lackluster Lily System).
03-31-2022, 01:12 AM
Dhalya

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiaShino

Wonder how many sprouts who struggled the first time in Vale realize that the three other healers all have aoe regen by that level? In dungeon with two bosses that inflict large raidwide damage with high consistency. Unsure what Square is even thinking some of the times! The "newbie friendly" starter healer is actually toughest healer to play at 50. Makith no sense that does.

Please just stop bringing up FFXIV terrible leveling experience and imbalance of jobs at low level as arguments of difficulty -.- Yes I have no idea why Sage gets aoe skill at lvl 26, why AST gets lightspeed and essential so early while WHM doesn't get anything. Many great jobs just feel broken on low level thats not the issue of WHM specifically they just cba to address the old jobs globally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiaShino

(Quiz time! Who can heal faster, the Scholar with three lustrates or white mage with three lillies?)

That's kinda out of context since WHM has some things no other healer can pull off without planning needed, like Benediction or plenary+cure 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiaShino

Most punishing during high movement.

I disagree, swiftcast, blood lily, lily heals are better than AST's swiftcast and asp benefic (lightspeed is for reopener only, macro for adds/intense healing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiaShino

Mana issues especially if limited ogcd toolkit not utilized.

True, but that was only introduced in 6.0 and will most likely soon be patched.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

So why then is it ok for WHM to just be bottom barrel? Because it's for beginners? That's a BS argument because WHM is the absolute worst healer for beginners in every conceivable way.

True for Endwalker, because they destroyed WHM. Before that it was just the best healer for comfortable prog, it used to have zero mana issues, no micromanagement like AST or SCH, just straight forward glare spam with occasional heal, maybe mapping out instacasts to move.
Thb I don't think this EW iteration of WHM will stay unchanged for long, there are way too many complaints.
03-31-2022, 01:23 AM
Semirhage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

True for Endwalker, because they destroyed WHM. Before that it was just the best healer for comfortable prog, it used to have zero mana issues, no micromanagement like AST or SCH, just straight forward glare spam with occasional heal, maybe mapping out instacasts to move.
Thb I don't think this EW iteration of WHM will stay unchanged for long, there are way too many complaints.

I mean, WHM was just as horribly designed in Shadowbringers; the only thing they changed was nerfing Thin Air. Glare spam is a snorefest. The only reason someone would want to keep Glarespam as its "identity" is to make it the designated crap healer you graduate away from once you want actual engagement or strength.

I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere: this type of balance works on DPS casters. Where the "simple" one does the most damage, and the more utility-heavy ones deal less personal damage in exchange for their utility. The only major difference is that BLM is simple in goal, but requires finesse in execution. WHM is both simple in goal and execution, hence the constant bewilderment around here whenever WHM trips and falls its way to the top of the damage charts. "It can't do the most damage. I do more work than a WHM for less output! Rebalance, rebalance!" cries the healer subforum.

So riddle me this. If WHM isn't allowed to have utility, and isn't allowed to manage anything aside from boring Glare spamming and boring Cure spamming because anything more ruins its identity of being boring and terrible, then it's....what? Just last place intentionally? What's it supposed to be good at? "Giving fast queues and clearing content on easymode" isn't an identity.
03-31-2022, 01:28 AM
IceBlueNinja

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Yeah but there wasn't a 100 page thread titled "Have you quit healing" in ARR or HW. That trend only started in SB when they started pruning skills (or in WHM's case by being shafted by the lackluster Lily System).

ah not sure friend i started coming to forums on shadow bringers xd but ye i did hear my whm friends mainers complain on lily and plenary i did main whm but drop it when i got the grasp of ast in stormblood. It seems after storm blood even tanks too kind lost some of their lore, god when they had 2 stances and ninja i think did too from a friend who use to main nin. guess not only healer got some punch down others did too.
03-31-2022, 01:30 AM
IceBlueNinja

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semirhage

I mean, WHM was just as horribly designed in Shadowbringers; the only thing they changed was nerfing Thin Air. Glare spam is a snorefest. The only reason someone would want to keep Glarespam as its "identity" is to make it the designated crap healer you graduate away from once you want actual engagement or strength.

I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere: this type of balance works on DPS casters. Where the "simple" one does the most damage, and the more utility-heavy ones deal less personal damage in exchange for their utility. The only major difference is that BLM is simple in goal, but requires finesse in execution. WHM is both simple in goal and execution, hence the constant bewilderment around here whenever WHM trips and falls its way to the top of the damage charts. "It can't do the most damage. I do more work than a WHM for less output! Rebalance, rebalance!" cries the healer subforum.

So riddle me this. If WHM isn't allowed to have utility, and isn't allowed to manage anything aside from boring Glare spamming and boring Cure spamming because anything more ruins its identity of being boring and terrible, then it's....what? Just last place intentionally? What's it supposed to be good at? "Giving fast queues and clearing content on easymode" isn't an identity.

know what is lame is whm and ast story mentioning old non existance skills, poor sprouts must be like umm whats time dilation, fluid aura etc lol. Please se at least make their story sensible
03-31-2022, 02:16 AM
Dhalya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semirhage

So riddle me this. If WHM isn't allowed to have utility, and isn't allowed to manage anything aside from boring Glare spamming and boring Cure spamming because anything more ruins its identity of being boring and terrible, then it's....what? Just last place intentionally? What's it supposed to be good at? "Giving fast queues and clearing content on easymode" isn't an identity.

Indeed...
it could be anything
a) Easiest and straight-forward healer having strong and easy to use heals, mitigation and also a very simple dps rotation for people that just want to relax and focus on mechanics. This should mean no mana issues but also no top DPS!
b) Top personal DPS with more sophisticated DPS rotation sacrificing healing power/mitig/raid buffs (something like black mage among healers, I guess this sounds the most fun but doesn't really fit with 'white mage' aesthetic)
c) something more balanced with fun GCD rotation like Dancer, often procs some oGCD light damage or light heals, maybe often results in overheal (just like Sage) but it doesn't sacrifice damage so noone cares
Right now it's just a broken job, nothing more. Giving it top DPS for just half-asleep glare spam wouldn't seem fair to me.
03-31-2022, 02:30 AM
Rein_eon_Osborne

Creating dominant strategy environment as a side effect of WHM being forced into being "braindead simple, and therefore should not be the best" is just plain dumb. If people want dummy job for healer they should've turn to CNJ for that and expand WHM's gameplay.

Strengths and weaknesses can be fun to play around & optimize if every single job in said role has them. Right now, it's anything but that. WHM vs AST is the most glaring of all. It's not fun when WHM is known for being "the healer that heals massively" but AST heals just as much (or even more) + boost their party. Oh really, 'big heals'? More like big fat lies.
03-31-2022, 02:40 AM
Silver-Strider

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

True for Endwalker, because they destroyed WHM. Before that it was just the best healer for comfortable prog, it used to have zero mana issues, no micromanagement like AST or SCH, just straight forward glare spam with occasional heal, maybe mapping out instacasts to move.
Thb I don't think this EW iteration of WHM will stay unchanged for long, there are way too many complaints.

SB Lilies stayed that way for the entire expansion so the likelihood of WHM staying the way it currently is is pretty damn high. The most we'll see are potency/cost adjustments but that won't change how flawed WHM is from the ground up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

Right now it's just a broken job, nothing more. Giving it top DPS for just half-asleep glare spam wouldn't seem fair to me.

No one here is asking for WHM to be the top DPS healer. We're asking for a rework for WHM entirely.

I want the leveling experience to be better. I want old, removed skills like Stoneskin and Divine Seal to make a return as low level versions of our current toolkit so that we can properly teach new WHMs how to utilize their toolkits sooner rather than later. SE already set this as a precedence with the rework MNK and BLM got, so WHM can get similar treatment, especially since WHM has a lot of removed skills that easily parallel their current toolkits that it shouldn't even be that hard. Divine Seal is literally the same as Temperance so making it a low level version of it should take no effort at all other than some coding since both the animation and icon for Divine Seal should still be in the game's code. Stoneskin just needs to be turned into an oGCD and it would be the same as Divine Benison. There was a PvP version of Protect that worked almost exactly the same as Aqua Veil as a single target defense buff with a short duration so make that available in PvE as a low level Aqua Veil and you give WHM a much better foundation to work off of.

From there, we can improve how the toolkit interacts with itself. Procs like BLM's Thundercloud could absolutely work on WHM if we have it work on our Regen and Medica 2 so that good Regen uptime rewards the WHM with more damage and better MP sustain. The Lily System could proc an oGCD skill like GNB's Continuation Combo, which would grant the weave windows that Lilies grant some more purpose since the cast time changes in EW kind of robbed them of their purpose as a mobility tool and with Regen granting hypothetical "Diacloud" procs, Lilies would need something of equal value to be worth it so making Misery DPS neutral via these oGCDs would be perfect to both expand WHM's gameplay as well as solve the problems of the current Lily system being a DPS loss to utilize.

These changes alone would do wonders for WHM as you resolve several key complaints about the job while adding mild levels of complexity that don't detract from being a straight forward healer. It might not have the highest DPS out of the healers but if it's fun to play, it doesn't really matter.
03-31-2022, 07:07 AM
MiaShino

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

Please just stop bringing up FFXIV terrible leveling experience and imbalance of jobs at low level as arguments of difficulty -.- Yes I have no idea why Sage gets aoe skill at lvl 26, why AST gets lightspeed and essential so early while WHM doesn't get anything. Many great jobs just feel broken on low level thats not the issue of WHM specifically they just cba to address the old jobs globally.

Umm why? You said was beginner friendly last time I, wait one moment let me check. Oh, right! You do not start game at level 90. Huh strange. My point stands, White Mage struggle busses through content and that only grows worse as the level increases. It being "beginner friendly" is a trap and excuse devs continue making to keep making nonsense decisions about the job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

That's kinda out of context since WHM has some things no other healer can pull off without planning needed, like Benediction or plenary+cure 3

Ohhhh by the twelve. Sooo cure 3 is 600 potency (after trait) boosted by indulgence 200 potency with 6 yalm range. Total potency = 800. Zoe boosted Pneuma potency = 900 with a 20 yalm radius and it procs Kardia while hitting for 330 potency making it deeps neutral. Sure sure you cannot spam it but why would you even spam cure 3? Just Glare > Indulgence > Glare > Lilybell > Glare > Temperance > Rapture. Heck, Swift/Dot refresh and double weave some of this why not. Bene is great at most levels, best with tank invuln, saving unlucky player, or post raise. You know what else is great? Two charges of essential dignity on 45 second timer. Macrocosmose curing two instances of Living Dead simultaneously. Scholar can dump out 3600 potency in Lustrates alone not even mentioning recitating indom or excog. Oh joy I can restore full hp for one person every three minutes.. yay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

I disagree, swiftcast, blood lily, lily heals are better than AST's swiftcast and asp benefic (lightspeed is for reopener only, macro for adds/intense healing)

What are we speaking of here? Farming with a static because I was making general comment about average White Mage issues in all content. Swift is for raise unless group is decent then it is for movement/weaving. Blood Lily is dps negative.. Sure you can use for movement but that is one charge every three lillies expended. Aspected Benefic vs Lilies? Wat? When am I using Aspected Benefic for movement? Is that what is being implied am confused? Not being mean here. Lightspeed for intense healing? Why? It does not make you heal faster because it does not reduce re-cast time only cast time. Same number of heals per second with or without lightspeed.. However Astrodyne could accomplish this if you really really must gcd heal. Only time Astro is leaning on gcd heals should be low level play or pre-pull/downtime neutral sect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhalya

True, but that was only introduced in 6.0 and will most likely soon be patched.

Ohhhh I sure fricken hope so! Will believe when I see it because right now I am pressing X most furiously. However it is bad right now and we are talking about right now not hypothetical future changes. Running out of mana because you do not get any MP management skills beyond Lucid until 56 - 58 is bad design. It is the antithesis of newbie friendly. Thin Air opposes the current ogcd heavy design anyways. Two free raises? 800 MP of Glare? The heck does Square think you use this skill on? Probably Medica 2/Cure 3.

Unsure what the purpose of this reply was if there is to be honesty. If anything it only further re-enforced why White Mage is anything but beginner friendly. From Sastasha to P4S you are knee capping yourself by playing White Mage and saddest thing about it, you have no clue how much better the other healers have it until you play them.

Since you mentioned comfortable progging and re-openers, how the devil is Savage prog and re-openers beginner anything..? I am the confused.

The job is one hot mess right now with design that runs counter to what appears to be intended play style. Never even mentioned Aquaveil. 15% mitigation for eight seconds and I put this on who? The tank? Save a dps with it? You get this thing at level 86 by this juncture tanks or so broken stoopid overpowered. Might be good during big pull if only you could use it without clipping Holy.

If anyone likes White Mage that is okay. It was my main for some time, friends really enjoy it. That doth not mean it does not need Jesus. My brain hurts.

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