Dark Knights are an absolute joke and I'm tired of pretending they're not

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

The only sensible reason to nerf Bloodwhetting is to future-proof against potential AoE encounters further into the expansion.

Dominating AoE tankiness in dungeons is almost entirely irrelevant—especially so when it's been this way for nearly the entirety of the last expansion.

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Yes, that's the reason I subscribe to, as it's one of the few that I think leaves my personal taste aside. One tank having it and none of the others limits encounter design, so it must either be removed or shared, and sharing it causes far more problems than removing it does.

It isn't just dungeons, by the way. It's easy to dismiss it as a dungeon issue because those 'don't matter', but none of it matters. Savage doesn't matter, and neither does Ultimate. That shouldn't stop us from chasing a more balanced gamestate all around, for all areas of content.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Well, let's deal with Equilibrium and base Bloodwhetting first.

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I'd rather not advocate to remove their boss power. I don't find it offensive at the moment.

Bloodwhetting is also 19% for 4, 10% for 4 more. Realistically speaking, the extra 16,000 HP the Warrior gains over the paladin to be matched by 15/10% mitigation means that incoming damage has to total upwards of 120,000+ over 8 seconds (not likely), and Requiscat's healing is lapped by Equilibrium. I will have to check this as well, but I'm fairly certain enemy criticals are turned back on and can thus bypass parry/block.

I can assure you that if BW-But-Not-Dumb warrior has trouble, all the other tanks will as well.

You misunderstand. The power level difference isn't irrelevant because that content doesn't matter; it's irrelevant because the power level difference doesn't matter, even in that content.

We can argue back and forth about how true what I just said is and in what context, but I can tell you that I couldn't give any less of a crap which tank I'm paired with when I heal Expert.

Of course, there's zero healer Expert to consider, but honestly who cares?

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Of course, there's zero healer Expert to consider, but honestly who cares?

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Groups who do that are usually friends or statics, healers still have instant queues. Nothing changes there... groups who go without healer do not affect healers with that because they could have one of them swap to healer if they choose to. It's usually just done for a change of pace. Also it's not leaps and bounds quicker than going with a healer either, you safe maybe a bit more than a minute.

I do not trust a random DPS to not take unnecessary damage or die to stupid. Also those groups usually have a SMN doing some healing with phoenix etc too so most of the time it's not even the tank completely solo healing the group, you ideally take DPS who can take care of themselves too with selfhealing or other means.

I have not achieved lvl 90 yet on any of the tanks. I am leveling them all at the same time, currently DRK at 79 and the other three at 78 (yes, I am a weirdo, but I like all of them so much that I can't really choose), but I think I have played enough with them to say that there is a lot of over-exaggeration in this thread.

I won't say that everything is perfect, there are probably things to improve here and there, but in my experience so far DRK is great in single target and I find it good enough in multitarget (including big pulls). Some people seem to believe that if WAR is extremely good then, somehow, that makes DRK "suck" or be "broken". No: it is still good enough. Could it be better? Yes, of course. And it could be faceroll as WAR too, but I personally don't want that. As it is now there is a much smaller margin for error in dungeons compared with the other three, and that's precisely what I like the most of DRK; I like WAR because it is extremely simple and rewarding; I like PLD because it is extremely fun to play; and I like GNB because it feels more like a DPS than a proper tank. It looks like there is a tank suited for me everyday regardless of the mood I'm in.

And, for the record, I don't understand where that "mantra" that you need a WHM healer if you play DRK came from. In most the best dungeon runs I have had as DRK the healer was a SGE. Conversely, in most of the worst dungeon runs I have had as DRK the healer was a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

what are you even on about

There is a clear difference with Dark kit and other 3 in terms of defensive kit,
any healer can heal Drk fine and Drk can do Wall to wall as well
but this isn't the metric if a job is good or not
WHM can clear and heal just fine but it is in need of some serious help right now as well.

DRK easily is the worst of the three defensively
"b-b-but DRK trades defense for offensive it does 1% more than gnb see!"
this has never been an intended design philosophy for tanks in this game and just because Drk by some sheer miracle it has a fraction of DPS higher than other 3 means it not in need of help,rework or overhaul/QoL.

"So many healers complaining they are bored and have nothing to do, yet here we are, talking about DRK's being weak and dying all the time again. Doesn't add up."
a healer being paired up with a DRK doesn't suddenly make healers have fun and engaging gameplay.

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Yes it is the metric by which we are measuring things. Read OP's post. He claims he can't clear a dungeon with DRK because its so squishy.

You are claiming you can clear a dungeon just fine on DRK (as am I).

And let's just assume DRK is squishy, it means healers need to be far more engaged and make proper use of their healing kits. And you say that doesn't make healing more engaged or enjoyable?

What exactly are you hoping to do on a healer? Legit question. Because having to heal isn't enjoyable or engaging according to you. Having to not heal a WAR is also not enjoyable or engaging. So I am at a loss at what you're expecting from the healer class?

Some serious contradictions floating about here.

But by all means, you guys can keep comparing the single use of a 90 second CD combo of shake it off + BW to the single use of a 15 second CD of TBN to prove how weak and ineffective it is..that makes perfect sense!

Because who cares that you can actually use TBN six times for every one Shake it off + BW combo.

DRK is the real teamplayer. Without a Team he die. I like it.
He goes to the heal and say: "Hey, i need you. You are great! Lets do it together"
He is in dungeons a litte bit harder to play...but... you can do it without horror and wipes.

Yes...there are some Problems.
Miss some old Animation.
Mana-Managment is simple.
I dont like the ShadowClone, i wish this skill worked more like the Reaper-Avatar. More explosiv. MCH its the same problem for me.
and so on...

I'll say it again, I suppose: As a healer, DRK is the worst tank for me to be paired with in dungeons.
(And for context, while I've taken a shining to SGE specifically, my experience is with all four healers.)

When I get a WAR, their amount of on-demand self-healing is so ridiculous they barely need me there, aside from AoE heals or the occasional extra mitigation as SGE, maybe an oGCD heal between BWs if a pull goes on too long.
When I get a PLD or GNB, the worst I can expect is them panic-popping their tank immunes or Clemencies during a pull if I let them get too low. Generally they also have a fair amount of useful mitigation and standardized self-healing that makes my job a bit easier.

But if a DRK pops Walking Dead and I'm on a job that doesn't have Benediction? I've already failed.
DRKs pop Living Dead like any other immune as a last resort, but if they have to use a "last resort" it means I've used all of my healing tools already and have nothing in the tank to claw them back out of WD, especially as a barrier healer who can't just spam Cure II. I don't even get 10 sec of breathing room like other tank immunes, unless I just give up on them surviving and prep swift-rez to delay a wipe. If I see them popping LD, I have to do my damnedest to make sure WD doesn't go off at all, which defeats the point of even using it.

And the trouble is, due to

• DRK's primary self-heal for AoE pulls, Abyssal Drain, being on a long CD and only a fraction as effective as other tank heals,
• Dark Mind being borderline useless at all times due to its magic limitation,
• Oblation being pathetically weak especially when compared to the other level 82 upgrades, and
• TBN having a resource cost that puts it on about the same effective cooldown as other on-demands, but ceasing to give any benefit after it breaks so it only stalls out a single GCD at a time (on top of how few DRKs actually stack any mitigation on top of it because they want to greed out DA and don't trust that it'll break anyway),
• all on top of LD only giving immunity as long as I haven't actually healed it, so even with Benediction I have to hold off as long as possible or they won't get the full immune? So even if the DRK could help with healing it off, they're encouraged not to until the last second, not that they have the means to do so anyway?

DRK burns through their tools a lot faster than other tanks, and it shows, so we both have to work a lot harder to keep them alive compared to other tanks.
So if I see a DRK, I have to pray that they use every tool in their arsenal and know the job well, rather than just dumping the entire weight of their survival on me (which I have had, because ShB conditioned so many DRKs to use their CDs sparingly and just pop TBN).

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

When I get a WAR, their amount of on-demand self-healing is so ridiculous they barely need me there[...]

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And this is what you want? O.o

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Originally Posted by Ryion

And this is what you want? O.o

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Of course not, I want all tanks to be on par.

I fully expect Raw Intuition's/Bloodwhetting's heals to be cut to 300p before the end of the expansion, but they could probably drop to 200p and still be in that state. 400p per hit in wall-to-walls is absolutely ridiculous, that's like 300% of their HP every 25 sec. And then they have the second-strongest burst heal in the game on top of it at the same CD as Abyssal Drain, and a buff to their healing received?
I don't even think WAR should be a self-healing tank in the first place, because life-draining and thriving on an enemy's suffering is more of a DRK thing anyway (case in point, Abyssal Drain, or the namesakes for skills like Blood Weapon). If anything they should be focused on heavy mitigation and stackable barriers, shrugging off attacks as nothing because mortal wounds tickle and they're just too blood-crazed to die.

But as a player, my priority is seeing DRK's survival go up over seeing WAR's go down. And yes, I would happily trade DRK having DPS-level burst for it.
Plus it's a DRK thread anyway.

While I agree that DRK needs some kind of HP gain or lifesteal effect, maybe built into Blood Weapon, and of course Living Dead is terrible... the remaining kit is still perfectly servicable, its just not as good as the others.
DRK's can by all means clear dungeons with wall to wall pulls. If I can do it on GNB only using half my cooldowns without ever touching Bolide, DRK can do it without Dark Mind or Living Dead.

My suggestions though:

With Abyssal and Carve now sharing a cooldown, that cooldown should be halved. That alone would double the frequency of Abyssal's recovery.
Blood Weapon should come with a minor lifesteal effect, maybe 100 potency healing per attack when active. Not as strong as Bloodwhetting sure, but it lasts a couple seconds longer, and WAR doesn't have TBN.
Dark Mind gains a physical damage reduction of 10%, while magic damage is still reduced by 20%.