Fandaniel and the Depths of Ascian Tempering

We aren't bound to the path we walk by Hydaelyn's blessing (tempering, if you want to see it as such), we're bound to it by our past incarnation. Azem of Amaurot was a hero the world over, and even sundered the PC is just one incarnation of their eternally recurring Ancient self. It's not a compulsion from Hydaelyn, it's a compulsion from the PC's very soul.

The idea we're bound to or by anything Hydaelyn's said or done falls apart if one simply remembers Ardbert attacking Minfilia when the latter was Hydaelyn's Oracle (not by name at the time, but even so).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

We aren't bound to the path we walk by Hydaelyn's blessing (tempering, if you want to see it as such), we're bound to it by our past incarnation. Azem of Amaurot was a hero the world over, and even sundered the PC is just one incarnation of their eternally recurring Ancient self. It's not a compulsion from Hydaelyn, it's a compulsion from the PC's very soul.

The idea we're bound to or by anything Hydaelyn's said or done falls apart if one simply remembers Ardbert attacking Minfilia when the latter was Hydaelyn's Oracle (not by name at the time, but even so).

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I’d even hesitate to say that being Azem impacts anything. As we saw with Gaia, times change, and even desires that seem to be ingrained in the soul are overwritten, undermined, or in general lessened with time, death, and experience. I can’t help but wonder how many lives the WoL soul has lived, and how many involved nothing resembling adventure or conflict.

On Fandaniel and tempering, wouldn’t tempering require an active primal to occur? A primal sealed away, with already questionable autonomy given its lack of core (Elidibus), doesn’t make it likely that one could be tempered in the usual way. The stones, and the memories within, then are the only way as they seem to return the soul to its tempered state.

Which makes me wonder, is it possible to reject such memories? Take Graha for example, at the end of 5.3 it’s suggested that Graha’s soul from the 1st may not be accepted by his corresponding body on the source when he attempts to merge. While this is obviously different as we’re talking two souls from the same person merging vs. just memories being awakened, I wonder if the discordance between the memories of the unsundered and the sundered Fandaniel may have led to something like a rejection occurring, which could have its own consequences. Gaia’s conflict with her previous self’s memories make me think that ones lived experience can lead to conflict between memories and ultimately, between the different forms of the self. Perhaps that would explain why Fandaniel seems... unique, even among Ascians.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

On Fandaniel and tempering, wouldn’t tempering require an active primal to occur? A primal sealed away, with already questionable autonomy given its lack of core (Elidibus), doesn’t make it likely that one could be tempered in the usual way. The stones, and the memories within, then are the only way as they seem to return the soul to its tempered state.

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No, an active Primal is not required for its followers to temper others. This is demonstrated in both the Sylph and the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests; in the former, the Tempered Sylphs kidnap Sylph seed pods in order to Temper the newly-hatched Sylphs inside. In the latter, the Sahagin temper captured prisoners; on the quest involving them, they are actively in the process of being tempered and we have to cut down a few who have already succumbed. In neither case was Ramuh or Leviathan active.

Even if a Primal WAS required - Elidibus could have done it, as he is, himself, a Primal.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No, an active Primal is not required for its followers to temper others. This is demonstrated in both the Sylph and the Sahagin Beast Tribe quests; in the former, the Tempered Sylphs kidnap Sylph seed pods in order to Temper the newly-hatched Sylphs inside. In the latter, the Sahagin temper captured prisoners; on the quest involving them, they are actively in the process of being tempered and we have to cut down a few who have already succumbed. In neither case was Ramuh or Leviathan active.

Even if a Primal WAS required - Elidibus could have done it, as he is, himself, a Primal.

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Yes, you’re 100% correct that followers of a primal have means to temper others, so let me make my point more specific. You need either an active primal or something that allows for direct exposure to a primals aether, which given the fact Zodiark has been sealed since the sundering, it would, unless I’m wrong, be difficult if not impossible to get that. Things like Leviathans holy water exist because they’ve been active in the world recently and thus left behind some of their aether. We simply don’t have any proof that such an equivalent exists for Zodiark, and in fact, given the Ascians have the echo there’s no reason to think that would be enough to temper them, especially if that aether is limited.

And while Elidibus is a primal, the primal he is would be the Warrior of Light, not Zodiark. There’s no point in him tempering unless he wanted to directly be empowered, which doesn’t at all achieve what were talking about here. Not to mention as stated before, the primals will must be strong enough to overpower the one who is being tempered, and given the Ascians are able to resist most primals I have my doubts he’d be able to temper most of them if he wanted too.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

We aren't bound to the path we walk by Hydaelyn's blessing (tempering, if you want to see it as such), we're bound to it by our past incarnation. Azem of Amaurot was a hero the world over, and even sundered the PC is just one incarnation of their eternally recurring Ancient self. It's not a compulsion from Hydaelyn, it's a compulsion from the PC's very soul.

The idea we're bound to or by anything Hydaelyn's said or done falls apart if one simply remembers Ardbert attacking Minfilia when the latter was Hydaelyn's Oracle (not by name at the time, but even so).

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I mean, I don't disagree that the WoL and Ardbert aren't Tempered, but then again, there is sort of a grey area for Ardbert. He'd killed himself already, and supposedly that undoes Tempering. Or at least it did at the time that cutscene was first conceived so...

I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm coming to view specifically Zodiark and Hydaelin's tempering to work on the principle of fixating on Yesterday [Zodi] vs focussing on Tomorrow [and tomorrow! Hydaelin] In this way all ancients are tempered to Zodi because they are in servitude to the past. I think Hydaelin's nature is to act more like an * to Zodiarks original summoning wish. All mortal beings are soft tempered to Hydaelin because she represents or literally **is** tomorrow - everyone is literally always summoning a stable-ish reality because of this amorphous idea of there always being a [hopefully better] tomorrow either for an individual or the entire world. Under this way of thinking when a mortal becomes tempered to a more common primal it weakens Hydaelin because their focus shifts from normal mortal free will - which includes self preservation and hope, to focusing solely on the primal and that's one less little mortal mind contributing to the big tomorrowdream. "Tomorrow and tomorrow", man I'm tellin' ya!

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I mean, I don't disagree that the WoL and Ardbert aren't Tempered, but then again, there is sort of a grey area for Ardbert. He'd killed himself already, and supposedly that undoes Tempering. Or at least it did at the time that cutscene was first conceived so...

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Let's apply new knowledge in retrospect (because if the story doesnt hold then its a retcon that needs to be changed someday). With 5.4, we came to the conclusion that tempering is tied to memory. Ardbert and party may have died coming to the Source per se, but they never lost their memories. As such, if they were tempered, they should still have been tempered, even Ardbert himself, all up until the point they gave up their individual existences.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Let's apply new knowledge in retrospect (because if the story doesnt hold then its a retcon that needs to be changed someday). With 5.4, we came to the conclusion that tempering is tied to memory. Ardbert and party may have died coming to the Source per se, but they never lost their memories. As such, if they were tempered, they should still have been tempered, even Ardbert himself, all up until the point they gave up their individual existences.

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That's a fair assessment. It also kind of flags the idea that perhaps, after such an extraordinarily long time with no direct influence from the primal, Tempering might be undone assuming one could live long enough. Stares at Emet-selch and blinks

One thing I have been thinking about is the boss of Eden's Verse: Iconoclasm, the Idol of Darkness. This odd entity partially resembles Zodiark's form in XII (albeit upside down), similar to the stylized M on the Pandaemonium raid art. So I wonder that was the residual tempering on Loghrif that we inadvertently subdued (like the Four Lords' aramitama).

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

One thing I have been thinking about is the boss of Eden's Verse: Iconoclasm, the Idol of Darkness. This odd entity partially resembles Zodiark's form in XII (albeit upside down), similar to the stylized M on the Pandaemonium raid art. So I wonder that was the residual tempering on Loghrif that we inadvertently subdued (like the Four Lords' aramitama).

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That stylized "M" is the lower half of Lahabrea's Ascian glyph. I can't say for sure whether or not it's connected to Zodiark, but given the Pandaemonium story will chronologically take place after 6.0, which is supposed to wrap up the Zodiark / Hydaelyn arc... I doubt it.

Further, with the revelations about Eden's true nature in the Eden's Promise tier, it's heavily implied the Idol is Mitron exerting his will in an attempt to return Gaia to her Loghrif identity.