How Would You Design Red Mage!?

Look at Shaman from WoW as an example.

It has multiple uses,
Elemental Shaman - uses magic (back line)
Enhancement Shaman - can use some elemental magic but mostly melee skills (front line)
Healing Shaman - can use healing magic (back line)

I think for RDM something like this would be good, how they would work this all into one class is the problem as WoW has talents trees which change the aspect of the class.

Stances maybe ? obviously the stance would have to alter the skills and stats dramatically, it would be very interesting none the less though.

Something like a stance that increases melee damage by X% and another stance to increase magic damage by X%, them augment the class further with materia and gear designed around a certain play style.

You could take it further in that when you switch stance the spells completely change, from long distance spells to close range melee skills with the same effects.

That could work within a cleric stance kind of setup. I know I'm stealing from SCH in FFXI here but something based around

Light Arts- White Magic potency boosted by 20%, Black Magic Potency, Attack Power reduced 20%.
Dark Arts- Black Magic Potency boosted by 20%, White Magic Potency, Attack Power reduced 20%.

And naturally make Fencer / Red Mages melee capabilities superior to their magic abilities, if anything just to keep from having a third stance to take up an extra action bar slot.

Some of my initial fears with RDM is if we let the magical and melee aspects remain separate from each other, one side may end up becoming overly favored over the others (similar to FFXI), or too powerful. With some kind of focus like that, it might keep the versatility aspects of RDM from being too powerful while letting the magic and melee side stay separate. Just maybe though.

I put this in the other thread but I guess it fits here too:

So RDM being a jack of all trades, it would get some melee skills (likely with status effects) and a little of both support and offensive magic. Red Mages have traditionally used swords but Gladiator is already the 1-handed sword class. However Red Mages have also been known to use Rapiers so that would make Fencer the class (since class = weapon) which leads to Red Mage as the Job.

Now Rapiers are a little different from Gladiator swords, they would be used without a shield and thus would be able to parry. Parry should be a form of light damage mitigation for Red Mage so that it can stand on the front lines, in the same way evade helps Monks stay in the front lines longer. To balance it against WAR's parry ability, RDM would obviously have much less health so it would not be able to take Warrior's spot as a parry tank. Also they could link some conditional skills to parry.

Throw in CNJ/THM as their cross-class, give them Dualcast/Fast Cast as their 15 min and throw in some job exclusive en- spells.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Some of my initial fears with RDM is if we let the magical and melee aspects remain separate from each other, one side may end up becoming overly favored over the others (similar to FFXI), or too powerful. With some kind of focus like that, it might keep the versatility aspects of RDM from being too powerful while letting the magic and melee side stay separate. Just maybe though.

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There is that possibility, of course its down to SE to fine tune the different aspects of the class to balance them in a way where neither side is lacking.

It would probably be an ongoing thing where each side see's tweaks every patch to strengthen the class, similar to what they are doing with Paladin.

Blend of Black, and White Magic, and also have a few status ailment spells, and Doublecast.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

I wouldn't design Red Mage at all, especially at this point in time in the game.

XIV needs a more dynamic mage class than a "combination" class/job. It also doesn't need a melee mage class right now either.

The only reason people want Red Mage right now is for refresh. Having an entire class made and implemented just for Refresh is pretty sad.

There are plenty of opportunities for SE to create a more inventive class/job than Red Mage.

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I find myself agreeing with this.

We don't need the FFXI RDM (that is, a enhancing/enfeebling mage) ported over to this game, because we are getting that with Arcanist (>> Timemage.. hopefully)

Until then, RDM should be shelved.

When the time does come for RDM, I hope the devs need to go back to the full history of the Job and come up with a build that builds on the Jack-of-all-trades origins.

Final Fantasy Wikia sums it up best:

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Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a high price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it. Thus, the Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. However, in certain games, Red Mages have a special ability such as Dualcast which boosts their spell casting efficiency. The standard Red Mage attire consists of red, black, and white clothing, including a red cloak with white or black trimmings, black boots and a red cap with a white feather.

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So in short, RDM should require:

• Dualcast-type ability
• Some White Magic (cure-type and buffing spells )
• Some Black Magic (elemental damage spells )
• Rapier

I think it might be useful to draw from the Mystic Knight job in creating a FFXIV RDM.

The Mystic Knight is very similar to the RDM but it's spells are focused on enchanting their swords with elemental and enfeelbing magic. (or En~ spells in FFXI)

eg.

• En-Poison
• En-Silence
• En-Thunder
• En-Drain

A RDM who's Job spell list consisted of En-spells, has access to THM and CNJ spells, can Dual-cast, and has some function by which TP is used to help cast spells, would be much more faithful to the RDM lore than the Refresh-whore of FFXI IMO.

I think it would be difficult to fit Red Mage into the current system (or even pre 1.19) with cross class abilities being the way they are (limited to no duplicates).

You might have a Fencer, with a Red Mage job who has Conjurer and Thaumaturge as their cross class abilities.

Red Mage, being a jack-of-all-trades type, with many fighter weapons and armor available, using an array of white and black magic spells, but not specializing in any one area.

Although I'm sure the lore could be adapted in FFXIV. Where the red mage is a subset of fencers who utilize magic to enhance their effectiveness. Be that Red Lotus for a flame sword attack or an enfeebling attack like Swarmstrike (weapon skill that afflicts poison).

Challenge Accepted. :cool:


As I have neither the time nor the spreadsheets to properly balance MP and TP costs, or any exact numbers for that matter, please use your imagination for the purposes of exact numbers.

In addition, given the current system requirements for a class and a job to be paired 1:1, this includes Fencer.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

Fencer
魔法剣士 (lit. "Magic Swordsman")

Fencers are frontline casters who specialize in the use of mystical spellswords. Wielding magics as deftly as their blades, they posses the ability to both debilitate their enemies and bolster their allies as needed.


Abilities

Lv Ability Name
Description


1 Expose
Delivers a melee attack. Chance to decrease defense and magic defense, up to a maximum of three stacks.

2 Water Brand
Deals water damage. Fulfills the combo conditions of your next spell.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Converts your attacks into water attacks.

4 Runic
Absorbs the next magic attack and restores MP when an attack is absorbed. Effect fades upon absorption or after a certain period of time elapses.

6 Life Brand
Delivers a ranged attack and restores the HP of nearby allies.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Grants your attacks an HP restore effect.

10 Blood Price
Pay the cost of your next attack or spell with HP.

14 Manastrike
Delivers a melee attack and restores MP.

18 Thunder Brand
Deals lightning damage. Fulfills the combo conditions of your next spell.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Converts your attacks into lightning attacks.

22 Featherblow
Delivers a melee strike at high accuracy.
Combo Action: Expose
Combo Bonus: Grants a TP bonus.

26 Earth Brand
Deals earth damage. Fulfills the combo conditions of your next spell.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Converts your attacks into earth attacks.

30 Subdue
Delivers a melee attack. Chance to inflict Pacification when executed from in front of the target.
Combo Action: Expose
Combo Bonus: Removes an enhancement from the target.

34 Infuse
Converts MP into TP. TP does not diminish out of combat while effect is active.

38 Wind Brand
Deals wind damage. Fulfills the combo conditions of your next spell.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Converts your attacks into wind attacks.

42 Ice Brand
Deals ice damage. Fulfills the combo conditions of your next spell.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Converts your attacks into ice attacks.

46 Fire Brand
Deals fire damage. Fulfills the combo conditions of your next spell.
Combo Action: Manastrike
Combo Bonus: Converts your attacks into fire attacks.

50 Checkmate
Delivers an unavoidable melee attack.
Combo Action: Featherblow
Combo Bonus: Increased critical rate.



Traits

Lv Trait Name


8 Enhanced Physical Accuracy

12 Enhanced Magic Accuracy

16 Swift Runic
Halves the recast of Runic, resulting in it lasting its entire cooldown.

20 Auto-Refresh

24 Enhanced Magic Potency

28 Greater Healing

32 Enhanced Blood Price
Also reduces the cost of the attack by 50%.

36 Enhanced Parry

40 Swift Infuse
Halves the cooldown of Infuse.

44 Enhanced Physical Attack Power

48 Enhanced Manastrike
Makes Manastrike a ranged attack.




Red Mage
赤魔道士

Red Mages are powerful casters capable of wielding both offensive and restorative magic. Sacrificing physical attack power, the Red Mage gains MP and additional versatility in battle.


Abilities

Lv Ability Name
Description


30 Magic Sword
Casts level 2 magic based on the Red Mage's current spell brand.
Fire Brand ⇒ Fira
Ice Brand ⇒ Blizzara
Thunder Brand ⇒ Thundara
Water Brand ⇒ Watera
Earth Brand ⇒ Stonera
Wind Brand ⇒ Aerora
Life Brand ⇒ Cura

35 Altruism
Grants a bonus to healing magic potency. Reduces enmity generated by actions while effect is active. Effect fades over time and upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Composure or Malevolence.

40 Composure
Grants a bonus to maximum health. Increases enmity generated by actions while effect is active. Effect fades over time and upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Altruism or Malevolence.

45 Malevolence
Grants a bonus to attack magic potency and physical attack power. Effect fades over time and upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Altruism or Composure.

50 Chainspell
Removes cast time and recast time of all spells.

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*Footnote #1: Weapon Type - Spellswords
Both Fencer and Red Mage are referenced as using "spellswords." This is a term that crops up frequently in Final Fantasy. In one instance, even as a job that evolves from the Red Mage which evolves from Fencer. In this case, spellswords would be a set including a sword and main gauche off hand, preventing the use of a shield. The weapons would feature varying stats, but almost always also a reasonable parry value.

*Footnote #2: Japanese Name Relevance
The Japanese name 魔法剣士 mahou kenshi lit. "Magic Swordsman", is relevant due to the fact that in the Japanese version of the game, classes are named entirely around their weapon type in the case of melee classes, with no reference to any sort of flavor or lore. In this case, I am designing Fencer to use spellblades, which allows the class's abilities to tie more closely into Red Mage's, in a way that makes sense. "Fencer" is lore that's piled on top of that, to give the class quests flavor. It also works well with the sword and main gauche as weapons.

*Footnote #3: Magic Sword
From a technical standpoint, Magic Sword would require an additional case be added to the current ability system. An ability that can branch based on the context of a buff on the player. On the upside, all the spells this ability would access are currently in the game, thus requiring no additional art assets be created.

This design of Red Mage hinges on this ability. It's a slightly unsatisfactory solution in that sense, however, I think it accomplishes the goal with the very limited number of ability slots open to a job.

*Footnote #4: Altruism, Composure, Malevolence
These effects fade over time, I.E. their potency degrades slowly until they expire. Their cooldowns would be such that the same ability could not be used twice in a row.


P.S. No one wants Red Mage for refresh. We already have Ballad. The people who want Red Mage simply either enjoyed it in Final Fantasy XI, or in most cases, seem to have (like me) always had a soft spot for Red Mage in the series history.

There are ways to make Red Mage unique, but it is true, that simply implementing it as it was in FFXI would be a waste of time and effort, and run counter to the current job system.

to OP: I like your take on the Fencer/Musketeer class however I wa sunder the impression that the Musketeers use well Muskets :P shouldn't there offhand then be a musket? The guild in Limsa for the Musketeers shows them all equipped with guns of some sort and I was bewildered that this wasn't a class already especially when I was teased with being given a gun in an early mission cut scene only to have ti taken away. If they release a Musketeer class and I get another sword and no gun I'll be really disappointed :(

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Look at Shaman from WoW as an example.

It has multiple uses,
Elemental Shaman - uses magic (back line)
Enhancement Shaman - can use some elemental magic but mostly melee skills (front line)
Healing Shaman - can use healing magic (back line)

I think for RDM something like this would be good, how they would work this all into one class is the problem as WoW has talents trees which change the aspect of the class.

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Well, enhance has the choice of hard-casting stuff and burning their mana that way, or casting when procs are up and making their spells instant. Art of War for paladins was a similar mechanic where your offensive (Exorcism) and restorative (Flash of Light) spells were instant and had inconvenient cast times when used outside of Art of War procs.

That being said, going back to the comment I made about letting different weapon classes equip the Red Mage crystal could possibly help us lean in that direction to simulate "specs" without having to actually put "specs" in the game. As I see it, all it would take is setting restrictions for each weapon class when dealing with a hybrid job like RDM.

PS: Great idea, Ramsey.