Do SMN and BRD need 2 DoTs?

DoTs really just serve as another layer of mechanics you have to pay attention to. There's a larger focus on it on SMN than BRD though.
I think DoTs from both jobs can be removed and in exchange they get a new thing to manage (that's hopefully more engaging) but DoTs are...okay and gets the job done I guess.
My only gripe about their DoTs is that BRD *still* doesn't have a way to spread them and applying DoTs on SMN now isn't as seamless as it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Idk. Isn't there also the consideration of using two GCDs to manually refresh vs just one?

BRDs got a pretty good defense going here already, so I was gonna go with SMN and say, arguably, maybe, it probably could/should be condensed. Most of the time, whenever possible, you're applying/refreshing both with Tri-disaster anyway. What difference is it making if your one button is applying two DoTs or one?

Plus, maybe if they ween SMN off of DoTs, they can focus a little harder on the summoning part. Maybe make an actual DoT-centric job down the line. Green Mage.

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Except with the proposal YusiKha made, you would never have a scenario where Iron Jaws wouldn't clip your DoTs. So it'd be a DPS loss to refresh them both through Iron Jaws. At least if assume the 24/30s recast times being thrown around. Maybe you'd use it to snap raid buffs but that's about it?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except with the proposal YusiKha made, you would never have a scenario where Iron Jaws wouldn't clip your DoTs. So it'd be a DPS loss to refresh them both through Iron Jaws. At least if assume the 24/30s recast times being thrown around. Maybe you'd use it to snap raid buffs but that's about it?

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Not sure where 24/30 started, but it's just about the worst timing you could pick. 18/30 would work much better, as IJ would be used at 33s, then every 90s beyond.
Heck, IJ could even be changed into a 90s cooldown weaponskill, and the lack of dot clipping be an optimisation reward for diligently upkeeping both DoTs.

Raid buff snapshotting is more of a leftover from StB BRD. With Heavy Shot being upgraded to Burst Shot, Crit Buffs no longer affecting repertoire, and raid buffs in general being weaker than before... New BRD just isn't about snapshotting buffs.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Not sure where 24/30 started, but it's just about the worst timing you could pick. 18/30 would work much better, as IJ would be used at 33s, then every 90s beyond.
Heck, IJ could even be changed into a 90s cooldown weaponskill, and the lack of dot clipping be an optimisation reward for diligently upkeeping both DoTs.

Raid buff snapshotting is more of a leftover from StB BRD. With Heavy Shot being upgraded to Burst Shot, Crit Buffs no longer affecting repertoire, and raid buffs in general being weaker than before... New BRD just isn't about snapshotting buffs.

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This eliminates snap shotting buffs like Litany since it would result in a massive loss. And all so you could press one additional button every so often. It wouldn't even result in that many since you'd use Iron Jaws very infrequently. Ironically, this both simplifies Bard further while making it more annoying. You now have no interaction with raid buffs and have to watch hit bars even more.

I wager you won't find many Bards in favor of this change, especially since most rejoiced when their dots went up to 30s.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Not sure where 24/30 started

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24/30 came from the SMN dot durations back when they had different durations.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

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It's fine having BRD or SMN having 2 DoTs. I have a question, did you play this game back in ARR? Because if you haven't, you missed alot. You think having 2 DoT is taxing, try having 4 DoTs plus poison pots w/ contagion duration extend. Each expansion they just nerfed it down to make it easier for a SMN player dealing w/ DoT management, but keep them strong in the process and want to rely more on your pets..hmm more like to balance it between you and your pet. If they just give SMN or BRD just 1 DoT then that just make those jobs slowly lose identity of what they are supposed to be because they already lost enough as it is plus losing potency at the same time. They'll just be on the same boat as the healers and they don't want to further pissed off the players who main those jobs.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

If they just give SMN or BRD just 1 DoT then that just make those jobs slowly lose identity of what they are supposed to be because they already lost enough as it is

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Just arguing the other side here, but, a case could be made for DoTs not actually being a part of either job's "identity." They're just mechanics to upkeep. They're not pivotal to making a BRD feel like a BRD, or a SMN feel like a SMN. In fact, holding on to the DoTs too much can itself deprive the job of its intended identity. If it weren't for ACN/SMN relying on poisons from the start, maybe the job could've been designed to be an actual pet job, instead of a poison mage. And BRD? How's your singing/buffs looking this expansion? The way I've heard it, BRDs seem frustrated that they're not BRDing enough anymore.

But that argument starts moving a little too far into "completely redesign both the jobs" territory.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

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One of my /fc members is a brd main and he can agree with you on that the party buffs is lacking now that it resort to just relying on direct hit. Lost their purpose in burning MP for the dmg dealt song.......hmm, trying to remember what it was back in HW in the effect.

.....yeah, from the complete overhaul, that's what I kept thinking about. Well for BRD, not so much on their DoTs. They pretty much fine as they are once they kept using iron jaws to restart the timer. SMNs on the other hand, say if they were to just give them 1 DoT, it'll just make the class a bit more clunky to play, making it's rotation more awkward to deal with. Then will have to ask, what can they do to make it interesting for the userbase to accept a 1 DoT SMN? Give it a 100 potency a tick for 30secs, but the additional effect..or additional trait of enkindle where each crit tick, gives it a 30% chance in reducing the CD of enkindle by 5 secs, giving more purpose to use your pet more. I'm just spitballing ideas to justify it going to 1 DoT SMN...

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Originally Posted by Osmond

One of my /fc members is a brd main and he can agree with you on that the party buffs is lacking now that it resort to just relying on direct hit. Lost their purpose in burning MP for the dmg dealt song.......hmm, trying to remember what it was back in HW in the effect.

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Foe's Requiem

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

My only gripe about their DoTs is that BRD *still* doesn't have a way to spread them and applying DoTs on SMN now isn't as seamless as it used to be.

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The really issue here. Shadowbite looks cool as Hell until you realize half the mobs in any real pull are dead and most of your DoTs fell off by the time you hit it.