There's not much unique-ness when it comes to tank jobs, are there?

The complaints about tank defensive skills being homogenized feel like they're several years too late. Standardization of tank defensive kits started as early as 2.1, which made it so that the only real difference in defensive gameplay between Paladin and Warrior was Rampart vs. Inner Beast, continued in Heavensward with the addition of Dark Knight, which had a defensive kit almost identical to Paladin (with its own identical Rampart in Shadowskin), and was already completed in Stormblood, specially with Shake It Off being redesigned into a Divine Veil style party shield and with Warrior being given Rampart (as DPS optimization had driven Inner Beast almost completely out of usage except in extreme situations such as Ultimate progression). Its been for a while that their attempts at differentiating tanks have focused largely on the moment-to-moment gameplay of their offensive rotations rather than in the ways they mitigate, and I feel like even the most similar tanks in Shadowbringers (Dark Knight and Warrior) play distinctly enough in their moment-to-moment gameplay as to appeal to different types of players (although I share the common opinion that the new Delirium is kind of unoriginal, but I also thought SB Delirium was extremely underwhelming for a burst cooldown as well).

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

The complaints about tank defensive skills being homogenized feel like they're several years too late. Standardization of tank defensive kits started as early as 2.1, which made it so that the only real difference in defensive gameplay between Paladin and Warrior was Rampart vs. Inner Beast, continued in Heavensward with the addition of Dark Knight, which had a defensive kit almost identical to Paladin (with its own identical Rampart in Shadowskin), and was already completed in Stormblood, specially with Shake It Off being redesigned into a Divine Veil style party shield and with Warrior being given Rampart (as DPS optimization had driven Inner Beast almost completely out of usage except in extreme situations such as Ultimate progression). Its been for a while that their attempts at differentiating tanks have focused largely on the moment-to-moment gameplay of their offensive rotations rather than in the ways they mitigate, and I feel like even the most similar tanks in Shadowbringers (Dark Knight and Warrior) play distinctly enough in their moment-to-moment gameplay as to appeal to different types of players (although I share the common opinion that the new Delirium is kind of unoriginal, but I also thought SB Delirium was extremely underwhelming for a burst cooldown as well).

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We're getting these complaints now because WAR and DRK are way to similar.

Personally, I think I would prefer it if DRK lost Delirium and gained an entirely new full DPS burst rotation (and a cooldown to produce a burst window periodically) that you only got to use every so often. While this would make it play somewhat similarly to GNB, it would maintain enough of its individuality by retaining its current number of oGCD abilities. This change would also help it gain back a little bit of the complexity it lost (albeit not much).

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

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Would you care to provide a direct reference in FFXIV on how a Dark Knight's power can rob them of their individuality and turn them into a killing machine?

I have both lore books and a transcript of every single line from the Dark Knight questline, and I'm struggling to find support for your claim.

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Originally Posted by Razard

But it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul". It's outright stated that he couldn't defeat the forces of Darkness while using Dark abilities. The rest of DRKs appearances where as a Neutral Job (Including, hilariously, FF10-2 with all it's J-pop bubbly nonsense). Also you have the whole "The player character is a famous hero" so the only thing they could get away with was Fantasy Greatsword wielding Batman. See also, Thieves.

Is this what we are reduced to now? Complaining that the Job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough?


You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please sit down before you hurt yourself.

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Actually I was. The person I replied to said that SE can do whatever they want with the job. I responded and agreed that they could, and that they obviously ripped off Rune Fencer and Celes.

And yes, complaining that the job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough is a valid thing (Though it's probably the egiest it's ever been with that 50-60 storyline), since DRK in almost all of it's iterations has been about weakening it's foe(s), as well as killing itself to do damage only to get said hp back via drain abilities, dealing more damage while weaken, **dealing damage**, regardless of the character's own personal alignment. In short, I don't care what Cecil's goals, aspirations, or motivations were. Nor does the power that he wields. Nor should you.

They done messed the job (At least from it's original design) up that SE established over many games. End of story. Now go back to playing your DERK Knight before you hurt yourself. Hope you enjoy it. :)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Would you care to provide a direct reference in FFXIV on how a Dark Knight's power can rob them of their individuality and turn them into a killing machine?

I have both lore books and a transcript of every single line from the Dark Knight questline, and I'm struggling to find support for your claim.

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Maybe not rob them of their individuality, but you do almost become a mindless killing machine in the level 50 quest, which causes the player character (Us) to control the darkness or be controlled by it. Ie: We go to whitebrim and basically slay a bunch of Knights (or KO) before having to fight ourselves, our inner darkness, to regain control and learn to control the Derknessss, our souls, and our minds.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Our_Answer (All quest trasncripts can be found there, including the journal which basically shows you (the player character) is going insane and are no longer wanting to serve or save people, but instead only kill.)

And

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWcCoqf5MBY == a entire video for the first part where you can easily see that Fray (which is really you by the way, the real Fray was dead long ago~) 100% killed a bunch of (possibly / more than likely / 90% sure) innocent Knights before we get to go and beat ourselves down in a derk derk moment because your character lost their mind (really, they are talking to themselves and imaging a dead person is there as themselves because we needed a mentor. We literately stole someone else identity.....and are wanting to kill people because they annoy us with their tasks).

And then to further support Asbimilard. This is a direct quote from the journal entry.

"Darkness dwells within us all, but few are forced to confront it as you are. One moment, Fray stands before you, and in the next, it is your twin. As you wrestle for control with your darkside, the voices of Whitebrim Front cry out to you in support, even as your own voice belittles your struggle. And then...as quickly as it began, it ends. Your soul is in your keeping once more."

In short, by using the Dark Knight Job stone we get tainted by the darkness and through the course of our leveling we teach ourselves how to deal with it. Or as "Fray" *cough (ourselves) cough* tells us, without proper training "It can hurt". Basically meaning that without learning how to control it, we lose control and start beating people up (Much like warrior, but with a cause other than hulking out on roids. I mean don't you want to kill a NPC or two that sends you on your 1 billionth fetch quest (I know I do) )
:)

Frey doesn't kill indiscriminately. The core debate of the first set of quests culminating in Our Answer is about idealism vs. pragmatism. In Frey's own words from a later questline:

Serve… Save… Slave… Slay… I’ve sins aplenty, aye, but regrets? Not so much. And if she wouldn’t listen to me, the embodiment of good sense and pragmatism, then what hope could you possibly have. A house divided cannot stand, you know. This childish rebellion ends now.

It's quite easy for the Warrior of Light to just do tasks because they are asked of him/her. There are plenty of people, as in the story of the merchant, who are willing to use the Warrior of Light as a tool for their personal benefit, but are just as willing to turn on them when it's convenient. "Our Weapon of Light." The same is true of 'Our Answer'.

While your courageous new friends distract the dross, you will seek out and slay the leader. What a brilliant plan! Nothing like the countless other times we slew someone else's enemies.

And here we come to the crux of Fray's views on the subject:

Your affinity with your darkside grows stronger by the day. And yet...there is a hesitation. Listen to me. You have performed great deeds and saved countless people. You are a hero to the realm... But you are no dark knight. A dark knight accepts that he cannot save everyone─that sometimes, he is fortunate just to save himself. Sacrifice, is to renounce that which binds you. To recognize that which matters─and forsake all that does not. At the very least, you must realize that you cannot continue to carry all these burdens... Unless you wish to die a slave.

Those knights are not innocent. After using you for their own benefit, they then want you to politely accompany them back for questioning on an issue of heresy. Yeah, right. This is our answer. See how quickly they change their minds after that.

The entire point of the Dark Knight questline is that your player character is more than a quest completion tool. They're a person, with a voice, with a story waiting to be told.

A chorus of voices cries out for a hero, and he comes.
He smiles. He nods. And he remains silent...
But he too has a voice...
I will be heard...

Fray: Listen to my voice. Listen to your heartbeat. Listen for the other...

Fray is our voice. It's easy to do what's asked of you. What makes a Dark Knight different is a willingness to ask why, and act on behalf of their inner desires. To quote Sidurgu:

To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it.

A Dark Knight acts not because they are asked to. It's because they choose to.

Don't worry Lyth, actually, I believe the killing machine thing is about the Warrior quest (because it's actually what happens when they use their rage but can't control it). They are just confused between both stories.

I guess there was a confusion with some things Fray said at start :
(1rst Quest lvl 30) "the crystal changes you─gives you the power to channel it. Do it without proper training, however, and...well...it might hurt."
(2nd Quest lvl 30) "bear in mind that while the darkness gives you strength, that strength comes at cost. That is but one sacrifice, though─and justice demands many.
[...] we could beat every last one of them to within an ilm of their lives and rescue the girl. You'd like that, wouldn't you? I knew you would.
[...] Fear, pain, rage─that which lies in the deepest depths of our soul makes for a potent fuel. But be warned: burn too much too quickly, and you risk being consumed.
[...] If I had a gil for every time I had to kill an unrepentant bastard like you...
[...] there is still so much more to learn─so much further to go. I won't lie to you, "Forename". The risks will only increase."
(Quest 35) : "It is a ritual in which one nurtures the darkness within so that he may channel it more effectively in battle. Do not, however, presume the risks to be any less than before. Should you partake of it in excess, you will die. Or worse."
(Quest 40) : "look at yourself. Most of that's not even your blood! Leave it. You've nothing to be ashamed of."

That's kind of the power of Tsukuyomi, in a way, but to make what seems right to us. Kind of using rage and frustration to make action in a positive way, instead of seeking for revenge.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Actually I was. The person I replied to said that SE can do whatever they want with the job. I responded and agreed that they could, and that they obviously ripped off Rune Fencer and Celes.

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Why? Because it uses a greatsword? I'm sorry to tell you this but big swords have been a Dark Knight thing since ever. It certainly doesn't absorb magic.

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Originally Posted by Seku

And yes, complaining that the job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough is a valid thing

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No it isn't

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Originally Posted by Seku

since DRK in almost all of it's iterations has been about weakening it's foe(s), as well as killing itself to do damage only to get said hp back via drain abilities, dealing more damage while weaken, **dealing damage**, regardless of the character's own personal alignment. In short, I don't care what Cecil's goals, aspirations, or motivations were. Nor does the power that he wields. Nor should you.

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And the point was thoroughly missed that day.

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Originally Posted by Seku

They done messed the job (At least from it's original design) up that SE established over many games. End of story. Now go back to playing your DERK Knight before you hurt yourself. Hope you enjoy it. :)

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Oh my god why is FF4s version of the Dark Knight such a betrayal of how it was established from the previous version. Where is it's low level white magic?

I can do this too.

Now sit down.

DRK is just a discount WAR now and that makes me sad.

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

DRK is just a discount WAR now and that makes me sad.

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I feel like WAR got discounted and DRK just was made better personally. At least DRK can feel decent to play outside of delerium. WAR?
End my life I'm so bored when IR is on cooldown. My gosh it feels like the worst job ever designed.