Who said this and can it apply to healers?

this is a problem not with healers but also tanks. And the problem doesnt come from class design but how the game deals damage.
The damage in this game, lets say compare to other mmos with similar high level content like wow, is utterly predictable all the time, is low and is rare. The reason why tanks and healers endgame is about to optimize dps is because it doesnt require much brain power to optimize mitigation and healing, cause there is barely any.
You can remove all of scholar dmg skills except one and that skill would be still the most pressed, cause there is not enough incomming damage. Thats not a job design issue
Edit: Well having boring dps rotation on healers i a job design issue i guess, because the core of the game is still the same (and i dont belive this ever gonna change).

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Originally Posted by Toystore

I personally think the biggest logical mistake people are making is this ADHD obsession with ABC. ABC would have gotten you laughed out of older MMOs. Classic WoW had the mp/5 rule for every 5 seconds you weren't casting you would regenerate a certain amount of mp in combat.

ABC is such a false premise. People doesn't understand that inertia is something. Vanilla WoW utilized the value of the inertia where you stand still and monitor the fight by providing bonus MP regen if you could be smart enough with your triage to go 5 seconds without casting. I'm not saying the solution is a 5 second window, but ABC is just inane folly that really annoys me when people bring it up like it's somehow just natural truth.

Something as simple as what FFXI did where every tick of rest restores more hp/mp than the tick before it and the ticks increase as you don't cast would go a long way in that. There's PLENTY of ways to improve healers. But DPS is just a non starter for a lot of people, myself included. I do it and tolerate it because it's not the end of the world, but I do want to see it gone from the play paradigm because it's annoying and not fun in the slightest. Think of it like patting your head and rubbing your stomach. They require two separate axes of attention for offense and triage/reaction to damage management. Attention to one briefly interferes with the other and it plays extremely schizophrenic.

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I’m sorry if I’m missing something, but it seems like ABC should be a design philosophy, not just a player one. Doing something is more interesting than doing nothing. On that basis, ensuring a player has something to do is part of ensuring that they are having fun. A single button mash is only marginally more interesting than doing nothing, so under the same principle as ABC, there should always be something interesting to be doing.

I’m also sceptical of the idea that increasing incoming damage is a viable solution. If you scale it up too far, your average healer won’t be able to cope, and that’ll be miserable for everyone. If you don’t scale it up enough, then the better healers will have time when they don’t have to be healing. I really don’t see how you could reliably hit that sweet spot where every healer of every skill level is required to spend almost all of their time healing. Especially when you consider that this would have to be the case for players of all iLvls, and in scaled content.

That said, I don’t think better dps is the only solution. A sufficiently complex offensive buff system could also do the trick.

You are missing nothing. "ABC" is a design philosophy in this game and every modern mmo there is.

It came to that because most people (players and developers) realized doing nothing is boring.

It's not like healers doing damage is a FF14 thing, although many combine it with buffing, hps checks and/or ressource management.

Main issue I see is I do not think SE wants to alienate those players that want to live in that healer fantasy world where all they have to do is heal.

I would love for a more dynamic DPS rotation for healers, whm is a step in right direction. I do think SE needs to come to terms with the fact that healers have a more aggressive play style here and they should alienate those pure healers and come out and say healer damage matters so we are going to flesh out their damage potential. I do not see them ever making content that is so healing intensive that it would ever require a massive GCD commitment. Granted I have never done ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Main issue I see is I do not think SE wants to alienate those players that want to live in that healer fantasy world where all they have to do is heal.

I would love for a more dynamic DPS rotation for healers, whm is a step in right direction. I do think SE needs to come to terms with the fact that healers have a more aggressive play style here and they should alienate those pure healers and come out and say healer damage matters so we are going to flesh out their damage potential. I do not see them ever making content that is so healing intensive that it would ever require a massive GCD commitment. Granted I have never done ultimate.

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They could always have an “easy healer” (probably shouldn’t call it that. People might get insulted) that had some sort of buff button to press once a minute that made up for the fact that it had stuff all dps capacity (not for the satisfaction of the healer, but so people would agree to run with them). Ofc it would be useless for solo content, and if you made it capable of handing solo content then it would be able to dps in dungeons so the buff would be overkill. Eh. Idk. I just can’t help but think that if we have multiple healers and multiple things that people want out of a healing class then we shouldn’t sacrifice all he healers to appease one type of person.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

Inertia is elegant, and I get the distinct feeling people working from the ABC first principle will never understand this and have no business in this role when you can get all of your jollies from the little red role icon. Green dps players are just noise.

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Ahh, there’s the “your viewpoint is different than mine so get out” argument that just shows you have such confidence in your arguments. /s

No...as someone who’s exclusively played and enjoyed the healer role since WoW TBC, I’d prefer my gameplay to not boil down to “press a button at a predetermined point in the fight and be carried the rest of the time.” My DPS can shorten a pull, which reduces the damage my team takes, which is completely in line with my role. And this has always been the case in any MMO: if you can contribute damage while keeping everyone in their feet, you do so.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

The damage in this game [...] is low and is rare.

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I disagree with some of what you say here. One of the biggest issues with healers pre-ShB was that their healing spells and abilities were simply too strong. Bosses were using abilities that reduced your raid to 1 HP (and blocked healing) in succession with abilities that hit for 75-80% of your health, and applying raid-wide DOTs that ticked for half of players' health. That's not "low" damage (thought you're correct on the point of frequency). But those sorts of mechanics were necessary to even remotely tax healing capabilities, because of stuff like Cure III, Earthly Star, Indom, and Critlo spread. This is why they altered healing scaling for ShB: to force healers to utilize more of their kits to deal with encounter damage. You can't just Indom one hit, Star the next, and let Eos do all the tank healing anymore. I do think they still need to make some adjustments to encounter designs going forward, and there are some indications in what we have of ShB that they're doing just that, but we'll see.

There are still other problems as well. Every healer and tank now has some sort of party-wide damage mitigation, and they all stack. Seeing boss ults in "extreme" fights hitting for 0 damage really cheapens the whole experience IMO.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I disagree with some of what you say here. One of the biggest issues with healers pre-ShB was that their healing spells and abilities were simply too strong. Bosses were using abilities that reduced your raid to 1 HP (and blocked healing) in succession with abilities that hit for 75-80% of your health, and applying raid-wide DOTs that ticked for half of players' health. That's not "low" damage (thought you're correct on the point of frequency). But those sorts of mechanics were necessary to even remotely tax healing capabilities, because of stuff like Cure III, Earthly Star, Indom, and Critlo spread. This is why they altered healing scaling for ShB: to force healers to utilize more of their kits to deal with encounter damage. You can't just Indom one hit, Star the next, and let Eos do all the tank healing anymore. I do think they still need to make some adjustments to encounter designs going forward, and there are some indications in what we have of ShB that they're doing just that, but we'll see.

There are still other problems as well. Every healer and tank now has some sort of party-wide damage mitigation, and they all stack. Seeing boss ults in "extreme" fights hitting for 0 damage really cheapens the whole experience IMO.

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I also mentioned predictable.
Yes, they are mechanics like you mentioned but those are on hard timer. So what happens is a lot of nothing and then some mechanics going off where healers are supposed to heal real fast and tanks are supposed to mitigate exactly(like to take a current example, u need to time holmgang correctly on tittania ex to cheese that one mechanic). But then its back to the old. Thats summarized like what, 10% of a fight tops? And obviously, you are right they did stuff to counteract that (i think that was what heir meant with healer are more "encouraged" to heal).
I think one way to "fix" (and again, i have the feeling most of the players dont want that anyway, at least from what i read) would be changing auto attack damage and intervals, so you have constant going on damage without squeezing 3-4 extra mechanics in a fight just do get more damage going. But yeah i agree with you overall. And im pretty sure SE knows this too. Its more of question what their design goal is. They are coy when they are talking about such stuff. Maybe they dont want that cause they fear there would be not enough healer and tanks? i already read somewhere here in the forums that some healer complained healing dungeons at 80 is too spiky for them

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Originally Posted by Awha

Main issue I see is I do not think SE wants to alienate those players that want to live in that healer fantasy world where all they have to do is heal.

I would love for a more dynamic DPS rotation for healers, whm is a step in right direction. I do think SE needs to come to terms with the fact that healers have a more aggressive play style here and they should alienate those pure healers and come out and say healer damage matters so we are going to flesh out their damage potential. I do not see them ever making content that is so healing intensive that it would ever require a massive GCD commitment. Granted I have never done ultimate.

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The entire point of having multiple roles in a game is to minimize the combat interactions one does not find fun and maximize what they do.

In this regard, FF14 absolutely needs a healer focused on buffing and support actions.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Ahh, there’s the “your viewpoint is different than mine so get out” argument that just shows you have such confidence in your arguments. /s

No...as someone who’s exclusively played and enjoyed the healer role since WoW TBC, I’d prefer my gameplay to not boil down to “press a button at a predetermined point in the fight and be carried the rest of the time.” My DPS can shorten a pull, which reduces the damage my team takes, which is completely in line with my role. And this has always been the case in any MMO: if you can contribute damage while keeping everyone in their feet, you do so.

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This is the last response you in particular are getting. I judged you 100% correctly. And the only reason you are getting this response is because I'm not letting you try to throw around your weight as if it counts for some long experience. I've been healing as a dwarf priest before TBC. Since Molten Core (fear ward for the dog and Onyxia was great) so I guess that means my love for the role still supersedes yours.

My very first point in the very first post you passively aggressively snipped instead of quoting when you gave your reply addresses how your style actively infringes upon pure healers with the example of the responsibility fulcrum. By trying to force your playstyle, you actively make it impossible for pure healers to get theirs. Whereas if we have ours and there's hybrid functionality for yours as a dps with assists and light heals, you can still play without infringing on us. In other words, you're projecting on me exactly what you're doing. You're a bad faith actor, and you don't even deserve this reply.