SHB BLM is the peak of this game's job design

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Arguably, being sure Thunder still makes it in after Freeze, you'll still likely have full MP, same if you're throwing Foul in or w/e. I'd say the MP is less of an issue than the potency/time equation (or, literally, dps).

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I think B4 is a DPS loss. It's real purpose it to allow MP ticks. B4 gives you 2 F4, so averaged out the PPS is (300/2.8) + 2*(540/2.8) / 3 = 164. This is less than the ~210 PPS of the full BLM rotation, so when you factor that in it brings your rotation PPS down.

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Another point I've seen coming around that's been bugging me. Still seeing people posting F4x3 in their rotations. With the added time to our phases, you can easily fit four in before you have to refresh with F1. Probably all still works out to the same numbers, but, just seems a little odd to me.

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The timer was extended by 2 seconds. F4 casts in 2.8 seconds (no SPS). Trying to go 4 F4 just makes it more likely that you drop Eno if you have to move at all. If you use Sharp to get F3, then your post F1 fire phase has 2 or potentially 3 AF timer refreshes. I don't think you should try to fit 4 F4's up front without Ley Lines.

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Originally Posted by Casino

For the opening, I do :
F1»firestarter>ley line>F4>F4>triple cast>F4>F4>F4> instant cast > despair > convert > F4 > Despair > B3 > B4 (0 manacost)

The purpose of the opening, no F1 between the F4.

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I don't understand the advantage of this. You are giving up a "free" F3 at the beginning and also losing a seventh cast of F4 as well.

For me its an alternative for an earlier fire phase. Same potential but other tempo, it can be fitter depending the boss.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I dispute BLM being the peak of design. It still has a couple of niggling issues left in it. For instance, it's still too easy to clip oGCDs on fire/blizzard 3 casts, Sharpcast as of level 74 can probably be turned into a passive for Fire 1 now and boost the proc chance of thunder 3, all the QoL changes that arrive post 70 can arrive much sooner, and the elephant in the room, the fire 4 rotation should arrive much earlier in the leveling process than it actually does so players don't get bait and switched.

But these are relatively minor. BLM is much better now than it was in SB, which itself was much better than it was in HW. Without overhauling the class at this point, there's not much more that can be done to BLM short of upgrading abilities like fire 1 or allowing ley lines to not only follow the BLM but let the BLM cast on the move (yoshi please).

The class is in a really good spot right now, that much is certain.

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I think the only things I can think of now are --

• Despite Freeze replacing B3/B4 in the AoE rotation, we still use F3 to swap in AoE instead of Flare 'cuz Hearts take priority over Aspect Mastery
• We never want to use Scathe, so it still contributes to bloat
• F2 and B2 contribute to bloat after we get Flare and Freeze (I'd argue B1 does after B3 but I suppose there are niche cases)
• We rarely want to pop Thundercloud during ST AF due to the Enochian timer (which can lead to wasted procs), and Thunder itself has no connection to Enochian
• Lack of self-sustain without a pocket healer (only job without a self-heal for emergencies)

... Very few of which really affect the current position of BLM in a raid environment, and none too heavily I'd say.

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Originally Posted by gumas

^yea BLM is great now. the feeling when you do fire2 x2 -> triple cast -> flare x2 -> manafont -> flare -> freeze -> swiftcast -> foul (and if your timing is lucky, another foul is ready) when tank pull a lot of mob and you do it smooth is just... feels good man.

got one instance where RDM in party jokingly "and people want MP to be removed after seeing TP removal"

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You actually shouldn't be using fire 2 at all.
This was a rotation people thought might be better at the start of SB but was quickly shown to be mathmatically worse than just going straight to double flare.
Fire 2 is just so weak that it's not worth using once you get access to umbral hearts, and this was back in SB when flare damage fall off dropped to a pitiful 30% of its listed damage after enough targets.
Now the maximum drop off is only 60% of the listed damage, making ShB flare much better than in SB unless you're only hitting around three enemies... and even then it still poops on fire 2's damage.

And then there’s my MNK and SCH :(

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Another point I've seen coming around that's been bugging me. Still seeing people posting F4x3 in their rotations. With the added time to our phases, you can easily fit four in before you have to refresh with F1. Probably all still works out to the same numbers, but, just seems a little odd to me.

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Overall MP (sans Manafont) still limits you to F4x6 + F1 + Despair; the extra time on AF simply allows flexibility (which is extremely nice) … and Manafont can always be used when you get a Firestarter proc (i.e. F4x3 > F1 > F4x3 > F3 (proc) > Manafont (weave) > F4x2 > Despair).

Leading with F4x4 does have some merit though, in that Despair has a longer cast than F1, but I often finding myself limited by the Thundercloud timer (proc with Sharcast during UI phase) as I'm assuming 100% Thunder uptime is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I think B4 is a DPS loss. It's real purpose it to allow MP ticks. B4 gives you 2 F4, so averaged out the PPS is (300/2.8) + 2*(540/2.8) / 3 = 164. This is less than the ~210 PPS of the full BLM rotation, so when you factor that in it brings your rotation PPS down.

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From testing, using Freeze over F3+F4 is practically break even and IMO any theoretical gain isn't worth the timing issues... i.e. the Freeze rotation (sans Lay Lines; which breaks it) is almost exactly 30s, so if don't have a Xenoglossy (which you won't the first time around) or a Thundercloud proc, there is a risk of having to wait on an MP tick after Freeze and / or the Sharpcast timer. The standard F3+F4 rotation, being longer than 30s, does not have these issues and even leaves you with the occasional spare Xenoglossy (which is useful for movement).

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Originally Posted by Casino

F1»firestarter>ley line>F4>F4>triple cast>F4>F4>F4> instant cast > despair > convert > F4 > Despair > B3 > B4 (0 manacost)

The purpose of the opening, no F1 between the F4.

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I'll have to try it, I've being doing:

Triple Cast > B3 > Enochian (weave) > B4 > Sharpcast (weave) > Thunder 3 > Laylines (weave) > F3 > F4x3 > F1 > Thunder 3 (proc) > F4x3 > (if Firestarter: F3 > Manafont (weave) > F4x2 >) Despair > B3 > Xenoglossy > Sharpcast (weave) > B4 / Thunder III (order depends on Thunder proc) > F3 ... repeat.

Which is a slower start, but I find the timing quite nice and it puts me into a good rhythm (until I get targeted by random AoEs and it all goes to hell).

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I think the only things I can think of now are --

• Lack of self-sustain without a pocket healer (only job without a self-heal for emergencies)

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Manaward is better than most self heals.


Edit: On topic, BLM is definitely the best it has ever been, both in terms of gameplay and (potentially) having a place at the meta table. There are still a few small improvements that can be made but considering the state of certain other jobs I'd be happy enough if BLM just stayed where it was for the rest of ShB.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Manaward is better than most self heals.

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It's also a 2 min CD.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

It's also a 2 min CD.

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So is Second Wind, and Shade Shift (which is only 20%) ... but yes BLM has the lowest survivability; it also has the highest DPS (i.e. trade-offs).

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

So is Second Wind, and Shade Shift (which is only 20%) ... but yes BLM has the lowest survivability; it also has the highest DPS (i.e. trade-offs).

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Sure, but the jobs that get Second Wind also get either Bloodbath, additional survival tools, or just higher base survivability.
(Also isn't a 500 potency heal usually like... half their HP?)

Meanwhile BLM gets a lot of tradeoffs for its high DPS. Having a uniquely bad time without a pocket healer need not be one of them.