Disappointed in the turn the Garlean Empire has taken

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Originally Posted by NoblePigeon

Using technology to fight is the main reason that I love Machinist. Because I love guns and steampunk tech in my fantasy.

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Totally agree. FF, Dragonquest, even Tales of all have mechanical aspects since their very first games and I totally welcome them especially in XIV.

Hell the fact we're getting Gunbreakers in the next expac makes me even more excited as I'd love to see how the Gunblade technology works in from a lore perspective but also how it is in gameplay.

Once we eventually get to Garlemald as well it'll be even more mech integrated which will lead to hopefully another more Garlemald inspired job or just allow us to harness more magitek aspects from them for our current jobs.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Totally agree. FF, Dragonquest, even Tales of all have mechanical aspects since their very first games and I totally welcome them especially in XIV.

Hell the fact we're getting Gunbreakers in the next expac makes me even more excited as I'd love to see how the Gunblade technology works in from a lore perspective but also how it is in gameplay.

Once we eventually get to Garlemald as well it'll be even more mech integrated which will lead to hopefully another more Garlemald inspired job or just allow us to harness more magitek aspects from them for our current jobs.

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Gunbreakers and Garlean gunblades are unrelated. The job and its technology were developed independently by the Hrothgar, as an evolution of Queen Gunnhildr's royal guard.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Gunbreakers and Garlean gunblades are unrelated. The job and its technology were developed independently by the Hrothgar, as an evolution of Queen Gunnhildr's royal guard.

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I'm sorry my third paragraph meant more so for the game itself as a whole , as we'll head there at some point (hopefully)

I've already looked into the differences between them and why Yoshi-P went with the Squall style sword with a gun(between gameplay and lore), as opposed to the Garlean gun with a sword bayonet style.

What could be interesting is a healer with garlean tech maybe. I feel another gun using ranged physical job may feel redundant, so for a garlean job it may be down to that or a melee dps. And I'm not sure if they want to add a fifth melee dps, we'll have to see.

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Originally Posted by Jyera

They were duped, but they were also the ones choosing what they did with that lie. To me it would be kind of like saying the truth of the Dragonsong War was a weak twist because Ishgardians spent a thousand years acting on a very fundamental lie engraved into the foundation of their society.

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One important distinction between Garlemald's war and Ishgard's is that the former's war is OFFENSIVE while the latter is DEFENSIVE. The Garleans have the option to stop anytime they want; if they were to use their invasion forces to instead shore up their own defenses and to police the territories they've already conquered, they'd be practically invulnerable. The fact that they press ever onward, ignoring the mounting evidence that their incursions are causing more problems than they're solving, makes them quite unsympathetic.

In the case of Ishgard, they COULDN'T stop. Beyond the first century of conflict, the Great Lie ceased to matter. Knowing the truth would not quell Nidhogg's rage or stop his assault. While it was used at the beginning to cement the power of the Church and the noble houses, in later years the secret was kept because its revelation would have been a crippling blow to the morale of Ishgard, who wearily continued their struggle bolstered by the belief that they were innocent victims suffering under the torment of an ancient and evil monster. This makes them - even the ones safeguarding the lie - much more sympathetic.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The fact that they press ever onward, ignoring the mounting evidence that their incursions are causing more problems than they're solving, makes them quite unsympathetic.

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I disagree with this some what. We still don't really have a picture of what occupied territories are like, only areas with a heavy resistance that can cause trouble and give tribes a window to summon Primals... Lakshmi only showed up when we started taking ground, not before. Susano was basically summoned as a direct result of our actions too, and Tsukuyomi was another Ascian plot against us... Other than that? Not a whole lot of Primals... Compare that to Eorzea, most of which weren't even summoned in response to Garlemald, they were summoned as a response to the City-States being dumb... When they were summoned against Garlemald, Gaius actually made incredibly short work of them, thanks to Ultima Weapon. Bismarck is the only real bad case I can think of in game, I guess you could throw Thordan in that mix.

While we weren't directly involved, Rabanastre was also a result of heavy resistance, and even then Primals weren't involved... It honestly seems like, once an area is locked down, Primals stop being an issue within Garlean territory. We'd need a lot more "Life under Garlean rule" stories to know for sure, but it seems like they only cause a problem during conquest, after it? Their conquest achieved its goals.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

One important distinction between Garlemald's war and Ishgard's is that the former's war is OFFENSIVE while the latter is DEFENSIVE. The Garleans have the option to stop anytime they want; if they were to use their invasion forces to instead shore up their own defenses and to police the territories they've already conquered, they'd be practically invulnerable. The fact that they press ever onward, ignoring the mounting evidence that their incursions are causing more problems than they're solving, makes them quite unsympathetic.

In the case of Ishgard, they COULDN'T stop. Beyond the first century of conflict, the Great Lie ceased to matter. Knowing the truth would not quell Nidhogg's rage or stop his assault. While it was used at the beginning to cement the power of the Church and the noble houses, in later years the secret was kept because its revelation would have been a crippling blow to the morale of Ishgard, who wearily continued their struggle bolstered by the belief that they were innocent victims suffering under the torment of an ancient and evil monster. This makes them - even the ones safeguarding the lie - much more sympathetic.

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I'm talking more specifically about their agency in the matter and how they became embroiled in a belief system they were willing to perpetuate--as opposed to being mindless mooks for Ascians to play house with. I wasn't actually commenting about whether or not Garlean ideology was justifiable or sympathetic (it's not), so much as how functionally it was a route that they chose. That there was information withheld, in other words, didn't render their course of action as a non-choice.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I disagree with this some what. We still don't really have a picture of what occupied territories are like, only areas with a heavy resistance that can cause trouble and give tribes a window to summon Primals... Lakshmi only showed up when we started taking ground, not before. Susano was basically summoned as a direct result of our actions too, and Tsukuyomi was another Ascian plot against us... Other than that? Not a whole lot of Primals... Compare that to Eorzea, most of which weren't even summoned in response to Garlemald, they were summoned as a response to the City-States being dumb... When they were summoned against Garlemald, Gaius actually made incredibly short work of them, thanks to Ultima Weapon. Bismarck is the only real bad case I can think of in game, I guess you could throw Thordan in that mix.

While we weren't directly involved, Rabanastre was also a result of heavy resistance, and even then Primals weren't involved... It honestly seems like, once an area is locked down, Primals stop being an issue within Garlean territory. We'd need a lot more "Life under Garlean rule" stories to know for sure, but it seems like they only cause a problem during conquest, after it? Their conquest achieved its goals.

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It's actually not quite that simple. Even if Imperial conquest actually prevented primal summons (and it doesn't really - remember that Spoken races are also capable of summoning, and as Ilberd demonstrated, will do so in desperation), the path that leads to the least amount of summons is the ideal one... and the least amount is zero, not the "few incidentals" that occur as a result of Imperial aggression.

But to get at the "most summons are the fault of the Eorzean City-States," let's do a rundown...

• Ifrit: Summoned by the Amalj'aa to conquer more territory.
• Titan: Summoned by the Kobolds to protect / avenge them upon the Lominsans.
• Garuda: Summoned by the Ixal to kill their enemies.
• Leviathan: Summoned by the Sahagin to conquer more territory.
• Ramuh: Summoned by the Sylphs out of fear of the Imperials.
• Shiva: Summoned by Ysayle to try putting an end to the Dragonsong War.
• Good King Moggle Mog XII: Summoned by the Mogglesguard because... ? (I don't remember why, exactly.)
• Ravana: Summoned by the Gnath to help them conquer more territory.
• Bismarck: Summoned by the Vanu Vanu because...? (Really wasn't explained beyond "Ascians taught them how.")
• King Thordan: Summoned by Archbishop Thordan VII to end the Dragonsong War (and conquer the world).
• Warring Triad & Odin: Collectively summoned aeons ago to protect ancient peoples from the Allagan Empire.
• Shinryu: Summoned by Ilberd to free Ala Mhigo and avenge the Ala Mhigan people upon Garlemald.
• Susano'o: Summoned in a freak accident.
• Lakshmi: Summoned by the Ananta in response to Fordola's blunder.
• Tsukuyomi: Summoned as the direct consequence of Imperial machination.
• Enkidu: Unwittingly summoned by Gilgamesh.

Now, there are tensions between the city-states and beast tribes, but rarely does it raise to open hostilities as a consequence of something the Eorzeans did (Limsa's treaty-breaking seizure of Kobold lands being the only apparent example). That tension is exacerbated by the threat the Empire poses - before the Imperial assault on Silvertear they were pretty open with trading their crystals to the Eorzeans. After? Not so much; they hoard them to summon if they feel threatened.

In short, even if the Empire's methods were able to prevent any and all summons after their conquest (and they're not), as long as summons are carried out during invasions that's not an ideal outcome. The ideal outcome is zero, and the Empire's methods aren't conducive to that at all.

(Are the Eorzeans blameless? Not at all, but rarely is a summon their direct fault.)

OP, your whole thought process is the very reason why Garlemald is currently in a state of unrest and on the brink of a civil war. Many in Garlemald also believed in the motto "Freedom through technology", and the ways of the empire as we knew them in ARR. Rumors are rampant that the Crown Prince is possessed by a 'demon', and Varis fears that he will have to fight for his place on the throne once more. It's imploding, PLUS they have the resistance to worry about. Primals can still be summoned by their respective tribes at any given time, and they no longer have the Scions to indirectly assist them with this threat. Basically, things over there are totally fooked right now.

By all means and purposes, I think the way you are feeling is intentional and not a mishap of how the story is being written. I'm with you as well as even though I would never go along with Gaius' previous motivations, I always respected them. The Garleans are clearly shown to not be all bad, or even evil. Considering that what actions could be deemed as such are a direct result of an Ascian pulling the strings, it makes even more sense to respect the Garleans.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

What could be interesting is a healer with garlean tech maybe. I feel another gun using ranged physical job may feel redundant, so for a garlean job it may be down to that or a melee dps. And I'm not sure if they want to add a fifth melee dps, we'll have to see.

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Chemist would be perfect.