PLD Advice - Skill bloating?

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Re-emphasize like so many others, dont use macros to deal with space problems. Use more space. Macros are generally terrible for a variety of reasons already mentioned.

The only macros I can support are for ease of targeting party members (shirk, intervention, etc) or for party notification. Ie: my provoke is a macro with a line in party chat so the tank is aware I'm taking the boss (handy for stuff like seiryu with multiple quick voke>shirk combos).

Macros should never be used for bread and butter actions to just 'save space' . That is not their purpose and they are TERRIBLE at doing that.

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Attempting to deal with both expanded xhotbars and the wxhb can be far more cumbersome than a macro.

While the vast majority of GCD offensive actions shouldn't be macro'd, especially for DPS, there are various combinations that can work well.
See my flash/circle or shield swipe/lob above.

EDIT: added due to new page:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The simplest and most effective macro’s I’ve got for PLD are:

Flash/Circle of Scorn
/micon “Circle of Scorn”
/ac “Flash”
/ac “Circle of Scorn”

This one works well because it’s a GCD and an oGCD, giving you control over which one you use at any given time.
Hit it one and you’ll use Flash.
Hit it twice in quick succession and you’ll Flash and Circle, applying your AoE DoT on pull.
Otherwise, when Circle is off cooldown, you can weave it between your GCD combo, which will only apply Circle being an oGCD.

Shield Swipe/Shield Lob
/micon “Shield Swipe”
/ac “Shield Lob”
/ac “Shield Swipe”

Again, we’ve got a GCD and an oGCD, so you can weave Swipe on cooldown, but otherwise you use Lob.


These are all skills that are niche enough to not effect your proficiency too much, they’re not your core DPS or defensive skills, and in general aren’t used much outside of the pull and any minute delay they might cause won’t effect you outside of dungeons, which aren’t high level stuff anyway.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Attempting to deal with both expanded xhotbars and the wxhb can be far more cumbersome than a macro.

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Hotbars are only matter of getting used to them and as someone who learned to use controller from 0 (PC player) in FFXIV even I didn't have any problems with it. Macros are problematic because of how they work. There is no comparing those.

Really depends on personal preference to be fair, something "cumbersome" to one person might be a breeze for somebody else, so really just down to whatever works for that particular player. However always consider the feedback when it comes to macros, not everything may work as we might expect.

The WXHB is innately cumbersome. It requires you to double-tap the shoulder buttons to toggle an entirely seperate XHB on and off. That's already two extra button presses, then the mental check to make sure the correct XHB is displaying before you hit the button, greatly reducing your reliance on just muscle memory, but that double-tap toggle CAN fail to execute correctly and display the correct XHB.
This can easily cause far more than the 0.5s delay caused by macro'ing the odd situational skill.

This means that with just the expanded XHB, you get a maximum of 32 actions. And even then, I know some people who get mixed up between L2>R2 and R2>L2, and use the same XHB for both, meaning they only have 26 available actions.

All in all, there's as much reason to objectively criticise the use of the WXHB, as there is to objectively criticise the use of macro's.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The WXHB is innately cumbersome. It requires you to double-tap the shoulder buttons to toggle an entirely seperate XHB on and off...

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Double tap is not the only option, you can also hold let's say L2 then press/hold R2 (and vis versa) to bring up a hotbar. Though if players get the bars mixed up (like the ones you know) that's really their problem and not one with the system. Sure it's extra button presses if that's what you want to argue, but as with most things in the game anything can fail, whether it's be macros or XHB or whatever else we want to include.

All in all, no one is denying either has any faults but the experience of them varies with the player and they may have more success with one or the other, simple stuff really. No need to force feed an explanation though, accept difference of opinion move eh.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Double tap is not the only option, you can also hold let's say L2 then press/hold R2 (and vis versa) to bring up a hotbar. Though if players get the bars mixed up (like the ones you know) that's really their problem and not one with the system. Sure it's extra button presses if that's what you want to argue, but as with most things in the game anything can fail, whether it's be macros or XHB or whatever else we want to include.

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That's the Expanded XHB, the Expanded and WXHBs are two entirely different things.

The WXHB is the 'additional space' you would need if the normal and expanded XHB's 32 combined slots weren't enough.

Stick to two hotbars to toggle through on controller. You dont have to 'cycle' through anything when theres only 2. You are either on the hot air with your skill, or you arent and you tap the shoulder (though I long ago reversed them for my own comfort. Shoulders are the actions, triggers swap bars/targets, but that's just me).

Two bars of wxhb.(16+16). 1 set of expanded 8). That's 40 buttons with no cycling. I have enough space to have all my actions, duplicates of my primary combos on both wxhb bars (to continue actions while swapped), all my role skills, and still have space for a marker, pots, and even a eureka regens pot.

The thing is macros are bad and never change. They are bad forever. Learning how to use the "cumbersome" hotbars also sets you back, but only for a few days as you adjust to the new system, and only improves.

Yes, you can complain about using 2 wxhbs and an expanded. They are annoying to learn, but it will ALWAYS be annoying to change your control scheme. Keyboard to controller. 1 bar to 2. Trackball to mouse. Literally any change destroys all your muscle memory you have developed. Obviously that's annoying and "cumbersome". But then you just stick with it for a couple days and it turns around because human brains are good at rewiring.

Theres really no debate on this. You dont have enough space. You have 3 options.

Option 1: remove skills from.your hotbar. Obviously bad choice.

Option 2: macro a buncha stuff. Thread has gone over this in detail. Bad for lots of reasons.

Option 3: get more space. Bad temporarily, but improves overtime as brain rewired for play to become superior to both other options in time. (I prefer 2 wxhbs and 1 expanded for 40, but to each their own. Lots of options)

All possible options suck RIGHT NOW. But theres only 1 choice that actually stops being crap. That's not a hard choice.


Macros are bad and stay bad. Transitioning control schemes is bad and gets better.

Using multiple XHB’s is just as cumbersome as using the WXHB (and you still keep using the term WXHB incorrectly) and it has the exact same problem, you cannot know for certain which XHB you have active at any one time, without looking down at it, which removes any capability to rely on muscle memory.
If you’re not relying on muscle memory, then you are not playing efficiently enough to even care about the 0.5s potential delay of a macro.
And I'm not convinced all macros will suffer from this. Please take another look at my rationale for the Flash/Circle macro. You may suffer the 0.5s delay on an initial pull, where it doesn't matter, but it will not be present whenever you're activating Circle of Scorn unless you're attempting to double-weave.

XHB (Cross Hotbar)
Your standard set of 16 actions, split into L2 and R2 activation, and you have the option to set up to 8 of these.
(However, using more than just 1 of these in combat result in the problem I've just described above, so you will set only 1 XHB to be displayed when your weapon is drawn)
(16 combat actions)

WXHB (Double Cross hotbar)
This is a distinct feature, where you can set the function of double tapping a trigger button to toggle on or off one half of an existing cross hotbar.
(+8/16 actions)

Expanded Cross Hotbar
This is a distinct feature where you can set the function of pressing and holding L2 and R2 in conjuction, in either order, to set up to two variants of displaying one half of an existing cross hotbar. This is marginally less cumbersome than the other options, because once you release the triggers, you revert back to your main XHB, so you will always be certain of which XHB is currently active. But, as I explained, some people can get confused between L2>R2 and R2>L2.
(+8/16 actions)

I mixed up my terminology. I tried out all 3 and miss remembered the names of the ones I settled on.

You continue to make the false assumption that swapping hotbars slows you down. It doesnt. Actions cue and have animation delays which buy ample time to toggle bars without any impact.

Macros are physically incapable of cueing. This means that any macro using a gcd will slow you down EVERY TIME you use it. No exceptions. Gcd macros are absolutely trash for efficiency 100% of the time. Period.

Macros for ogcds are tolerable if used individually between a gcd, but will almost always slow you down double weaving and can never triple weave under any circumstance.

That is how the game works. That is why most people who play well only macro sparingly and only use it on ogcds. Literally every high level controller player uses multiple bars and toggles without these delays or issues you keep imagining. Toggling doesn't slow you down. I hit a gcd, toggle, hfor ogcd, toggle hit 2nd ogcd and then hit the next gcd in my opener after heavy swing every time I pull a raid boss for the last 6 months without missing a beat. You keep claiming problems with controllers that dont exist. If you are slow with toggles you need to suck it up and practice until it's natural. Not say it's impossible and bad because you didnt.

Macros are a mechanical limitation. Any hotbar usage problems are a human limitation. You can only change one of those things, so dont blame the system for human errors..

I think Bulwark could be worked into Shield Oath and Fight or Flight could be worked into your Sword Oath, or Neutral stance if they got rid of DPS stances. Spirit's Within and Sheltron could be the same button that switch depending on what stance you are in like Fell Cleave and ... Inner Beast? Was that the name of that move? Total Eclipse and Circle of Scorn "could" be combined into one move or have one upgrade into the other.